labouring classes was occasioned by the extent to which mechanical improvement had been carried. He hoped the hon. member would postpone his motion for the appointment of a committee to consider Mr. Salisbury's plan, if he had such an object in view, till his motion for tomorrow was disposed of.

Mr. Mellish said, that Mr. Salisbury's plan might be of advantage in particular instances; but he disapproved of all plans of employing the people attended with great loss to the nation at large.

Mr. S. Bourne said, that the plan of Mr. Salisbury, having for its object the advantageous employment of parish poor, might be submitted to the committee on the poor laws.

The motion for the petition lying on the table was withdrawn with the consent of the House; after which, Mr. B. Wilbraham moved, that it be referred to a committee.

Mr. Huskisson thought it very possible the House might not think fit to appoint a committee to enter on so extensive a plan as Mr. Owen's; but the petition before the House related to a specific plan of employment for parish poor, and it was of great consequence, at the present moment, to inquire whether it could or could not be realised. Every gentleman acquainted at all with Mr. Owen's plan, knew that it embraced far more extensive plans than the employment of the poor.

Sir W. De Crespigny said, that Mr. Owen had no wish whatever of deriving any emolument from his plan. He had no other object but to benefit mankind in general, and this country in particular. Mr. J. Smith was happy that any plan for the employment of the poor was in the hands of the member for Dover: it could not be in better hands.

Sir C. Burrell wished to caution the House against allowing themselves to be run away with by their feelings of humanity. It had been said in recommendation of the spade husbandry, that the produce from it was the double of that of the plough. A case on which great stress had been laid, was that of a tenant of the hon. member for Newcastle, who was said to have obtained a produce by the spade, of 17 quarters of wheat per acre. On inquiry into the subject, he learned from the tenant himself, that the produce had only been 7 quarters per acre.

Mr. Brougham was extremely averse

to the giving a sanction to any visionary scheme of general employment of the poor. If any practicable plan were proposed for the better employment of the poor, lying within a narrow compass, that might be a fit subject for the examination of a committee. But the idea of superseding the plough husbandry by the spade throughout the whole country, was altogether out of the question.

Mr. Lyttelton suggested the propriety of having the petition printed, that men bers might have an opportunity of considering it before the motion for a commit. tee was submitted to the House.

Mr. B. Wilbraham had no objection to accede to this suggestion.

Mr. Wilberforce thought the House ought to be very cautious how they gave countenance to the mistaken notions which prevailed among many people at present, with respect to extensive plans for the employment of the people. It might, however, be possible to provide employment in public works for great numbers of the working classes. The disproportion between the demand for labour and the number of labourers, would thus be lessened, by which wages would materially rise.

Mr. B. Wilbraham having withdrawn his motion, the petition was afterwards ordered to lie on the table and to be printed.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS.] Lord Althorp said, in rising to move for leave to bring in a bill for the relief of Insolvent Debtors, he wished to explain some particular circumstances in which it differed from the bill passed by the House last session. The House would recollect, that the bill of last session subjected the debtor to a previous examination of his affairs before coming into court, and that it gave the creditor the power of compelling the debtor to come forward and surrender bis property. In consequence of the opposition which that bill met with in another House, the old Insolvent act was renewed till April next. His majesty's ministers had not only removed the late commissioner of the insolvent court, but they had removed every clerk, and in doing so, he was convinced they had acted most properly. Whatever was the cause, what had passed had taken away all confidence in that court, and a complete change was absolutely necessary. As far as he could learn, the effect of the change had been

every thing that could be wished. The present commissioner, as far as the provisions of the law would admit of it, had done every thing that persons engaged in trade could wish. In the bill of last session, he had assumed, that it was impossible for one commissioner to do justice between all parties; but from what had been done by the present commissioner, he thought one commissioner would be sufficient. He understood the bill was lost in another place, principally on account of the power which it gave creditors to compel debtors to take advantage of the act, and to sell their real property. It appeared to him, that the real property of debtors ought to be subject to the payment of their debts, and that a provision to that purpose ought to be adopted. But as such a provision might be fatal to the success of the bill, he now proposed that the real property of the debtor, instead of being sold for the benefit of the creditor, should only be sequestrated for their benefit, the estate itself not being taken from the debtor. His object was to have the bill printed before the recess, that gentlemen might have time to consider it during the recess. The present act expired on the 23rd of April, and he wished to bring this bill before the House soon after the recess, as it was important that a measure of so much importance should have due consideration. He thought it absolutely necessary that a previous examination into the affairs of the insolvent should take place, and that the creditor should have the power of compelling the insolvent to take the benefit of the act, and unless he carried these two points he should consider it his duty to oppose any bill for the relief of insolvent debtors. He concluded with moving for leave to bring in a bill for the relief of insolvent debtors. Leave given.

BLASPHEMOUS LIBEL BILL-PETITION OF THE BOOKSELLERS AGAINST IT.] Mr. J. Smith said, he had a petition to present, to which he took the liberty of requesting the most serious attention of the House, as the subject of it was of the greatest importance, and it was signed by some of the most respectable persons in this metropolis. It was a petition signed by 52 booksellers and printers of this metropolis, complaining of that provision in the bill now in progress through the House, for the punishment of blasphemous and seditious libels, by which a second (VOL. XLI.)

conviction was punishable with banishment, and transportation for seven years. Many most respectable men were in the occupation and trade of bookselling, and invested large capitals in it. From their education and attainments, they were qualified, in point of fact, for the best soeiety in this country; and they were in a state of the greatest distress and alarm on account of this bill. It was well known that the greatest uncertainty prevailed with respect to what was or was not a libel. That was a libel which was pronounced to be so by a jury. Those gentlemen were as desirous as any persons could be that the extensive circulation of blasphemous libels should be prevented as far as possible; but they humbly conceived that the punishment of transportation, which the law applied only to felons and persons convicted of the greatest crimes, and was, therefore, not analogous to the offence in question, was not called for to ensure that object, and would have the effect of preventing respectable persons from embarking their property in the trade of bookselling. Among the petitioners were individuals possessed of enormous capital; some of them had hundreds of thousands of pounds passing through their hands every year. Was it possible that men would embark capital in a trade which they could not carry on with security, if unfortunately they were once convicted of a libel, for the second offence sent them to New South Wales? Among the gentlemen who had subscribed this petition, many would abandon the trade were this bill to pass. They hoped that some other mode of punishment would be substituted to this severe one. Were this bill to pass as it was, it would be in the power of any discontented person, any person employed in a shop who had a dispute with his master, to put this individual in danger.

Mr. Bernal said, the literature of the Country was inseparably connected with its prosperity, and any restraints on lite rature could not fail to be attended with the most ruinous effects. Speaking from his own personal knowledge, he could say, many individuals of great wealth and intelligence were engaged in the book trade in London. He hoped the House would pay serious attention to the petition. He hoped the noble lord and his colleagues would think it due to the intelligence and general loyalty of the petitioners, to pay some attention to the petition.

(4 F)

"That from the nature of our trade, we are daily employed to execute orders from customers as intermediate hands, in the distribution of new works, of the contents and nature whereof we are unavoidably ignorant, and that for each copy of such works so distributed by us, we are now responsible upon an indictment or information, and areliable, not with standing the perfect integrity of our intentions, to punishment, as in case of a misdemeanor; and that if the proposed bill should pass into a law, we may in such cases become Hable to transportation for seven years, and to the punishment of death in case of return from transportation.

"That a very great number of historical, political, and religious works, are written and composed and published in London at stated periods, and that most of such works are of temporary and immediate public interest, and that such works issue from the press, and pass through the hands of several different booksellers, and many thousands thereof are delivered to the readers thereof within a very few hours after their first publication, and that a previous perusal or consideration of such works, by such venders of the same as are not the original or first publishers of the same, is impracticable. "That many standard works upon his torical, philosophical, and political subjects, which have now obtained a classical reputation, and are daily sold by respectable booksellers, under the licence of a long prescription, may be reasonably considered to be liable to question as libellous by analogy to more recent works which have been subjected to persecution, and that such standard works therefore do not present any criterion for judgment as to the effect of new publications-but may themselves be the subject of future prosecution, and may subject the venders thereof to the punishments proposed by the said bill.

"That the ignominy of a punishment which it is proposed to make common to authors, printers, booksellers, and felons, while it operates to deter learned and respectable writers of the most virtuous principles, from treating on political or religious subjects at all, will especially prevent them from engaging in the composition of reviews, magazines, and other vehicles of periodical discussion, to the great and permanent detriment of learn

"That although we have the greatest confidence in the wisdom and integrity of the present judges of his majesty's courts of law, yet that the power to expatriate and transport for a crime not specific but indefinite in its nature, which exposes ignorance and inadvertence, equally with intentional guilt, is of too extensive and dangerous a nature to be confided to any authority whatever, to be exercised at discretion; and that, in relation to a crime whose turpitude is heightened or diminished by the political aspect of the times, such a power, especially if rendered per manent, might become the engine of great injustice and oppression, against which no character, however perfect, would be a protection.

That from the circumstances stated, our trade and means of living, if not totally destroyed by the intended bill, would be carried on under a state of hazard and insecurity, productive of constant mental inquietude, and destructive of the comfort of ourselves and our families.-They therefore pray that the bill may not in its present state pass into a law.”

The Petition having been read,

Lord Castlereagh, with reference to the prayer of this petition said, he wished to state, that when they went into a committee on the bill now on the table, for the punishment of blasphemous and seditious libels, it was his intention to propose an alteration in it, which would in a great measure meet the views of the petitioners. He was sure there was not a more respectable class of men in the country than the booksellers of London. He did not mean to press the punishment of transportation. It was absolutely necessary that the country should be protected against the offence of publishing treasonable or blasphemous libels, by a punishment adequate to that object; but as the punishment of transportation had been particularly objected to, from its having been hitherto assigned to felons, and as he thought the interests of the country might be sufficiently protected by banishment, at the discretion of the court, he should introduce an alteration to that effect. The in

dividual excluded from the country, would not be liable to transportation, unless he returned from his banishment without the consent of the Crown. This security, he trusted, would be found effectual, as transportation was one of the alternatives on a return from banishment. They would thus still adhere to the principle of the bill, as far as related to the second offence.

Mr. M. A. Taylor said, though some part of the obnoxious matter of the bill was removed by the removal of the punishment of transportation, yet till it could be shown that the bill was absolutely necessary, he for one, should oppose it. It was a measure which should be met, in the first instance, as introducing an of fence not known to the law of England. Even if the present law were found insufficient for the suppression of those blasphemous and seditious libels, which it was the wish of every man to put down, yet it remained for the noble lord to prove the pressing necessity for introducing this with the other bills which he had brought forward. When such a change in the law was to be made, why not announce it, and allow time for the consideration of it? Why, but because he believed there would be but one voice in England upon the subject. He could conceive the propriety of introducing bills respecting meetings, upon the spur of the occasion, and if they had been limited to the time of exigency, there were those in the House, perhaps, who would not have made much objection to them. But the objection now was, that in three weeks we were actually to change the constitution of the country. Though the noble lord had made a concession by taking away the punishment of banishment, with a view to obviate the opposition of some, he deemed it his duty to state that the concession did not satisfy him.

Lord Castlereagh said, that he did not mention the alteration he had made in the idea that argument would be taken away, but because he deemed it right to apprise the House of the alteration he intended to propose.

Ordered to lie on the table.

NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL.] Lord Castlereagh rose to move the second reading of this bill, and observed, that in so doing, he might satisfy the object of the right hon. gentleman opposite, as well as his own, and the general convenience of the House. The bill might then be

committed to-morrow and reprinted, so as to be in the hands of members on Friday next. On the question of the third reading the general principle of the bill might be discussed, and he apprehended that this course of proceeding would be found the most advisable which could, under the present circumstances, be adopted. The alterations which it was in contemplation to propose he would now endeavour shortly to explain. The first branch of the measure was that which rendered it applicable to all publications sold under a certain price and treating of political matters. There were two classes of works which he did not think it necessary to include in this description; the one consisted of occasional publications of a local nature, and involving only local interests; the other respected periodical works, published at intervals considerably distant from each other, and which were of considerable importance, both as they related to the diffusion of knowledge and the support of religion and morality. It did not appear to him that it would be proper to saddle such publications with the new duty of four-pence upon each separate number. The House would readily see that the great object of this measure was to apply only to works which were the channels of mischief, and the means by which sedition and blasphemy were propagated through the country. It was intended, therefore, to confine its provisions to periodical works published in succession within the term of 26 days, so as in fact to exempt all monthly and other publications not coming forth within that time. Still, in order to guard against the means of obvious invasions, it might be necessary that the periods of publication should be required to be uniform, and that the application of stamp-duties to all works conveying intelligence should not be avoided. The second branch of this bill referred to the subject of securities to be given by persons publishing facts or intelligence of a particular kind. It was. not intended to press inconveniently on newspapers, the principle end in view being to put a responsibility on all persons. who sent forth works of a particular description to the public. He certainly must adhere to the principle of requiring security from the publishers of all papers or pamphlets of less than two sheets, and sold under the price of 6d., and issued within the period to which he had alluded. At the same time he wished it to be un