Minto Lord Sondes Dundas Hutchinson Hawke HOUSE Bolingbroke. Duncan Montfort Crewe. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, December 17. PENRYN BRIBERY BILL.] Sir Charles Burrell moved the order of the day, for receiving the report on the Penryn Bribery bill, with the view of postponing it to the 21st February next. This he did at the suggestion of several members, who wished him to wait till the Grampound bill came under the consideration of the House. He was not prepared to say that he had renounced his original intention with respect to Penryn; for in his opinion. this case differed materially from that of Grampound. The district to which franchise was extended in the Penryn bill, contained a population of 20,000 souls. At the same time, however, he felt it his duty to comply with the request. He concluded with moving, that the report be received on Monday the 21st of February next. Mr. Wynn agreed that an advantage would be derived from delaying the consideration of this case till after the discussion on the Grampound bill. The present bill was free from one material objection to the Grampound bill; namely, the proposition for giving to the unconvicted voters of Grampound votes for the county. If there was one part of our representation which ought to be more sacred than another, it was that of the representation of counties. The principle of the Grampound bill went to put another class of voters on an equality with freeholders. There were now three bills in the House relating to boroughs in the same county. In Wales, four or five boroughs all contributed (not by delegation, as in Scotland) to return one member. It might be possible, in like manner, to class together the unconvicted voters of the different boroughs of which the district would not be greater than one of those in Wales. Sir C. Monck was happy, that in the projected alteration of the Penryn bill, the right to elect would be given to a district including such populous places as Falmouth and Penzance. There was no necessity for adhering rigorously to the same precedent, when the adherence would not be productive of the same be(VOL. XLI.) nefit. He thought nothing could be more advisable than to deal with Penryn as boroughs under the same circumstances had been dealt with before. The imperfection in the manner in which they had hitherto proceeded with boroughs such as Penryn was, that in the hundred to which the franchise was extended, there were sometimes other boroughs, which by this means obtained a share in returning a number of members. Thus, for instance, Wooton Basset, in the county of Wilts, was in the hundred to which the franchise of Cricklade was extended. A person inhabiting a freehold house in Wooton Basset, had a vote for the two members of that borough, the two members for Cricklade, and the two members for the county, in all six members. Mr. D. Gilbert observed, that in many of the boroughs the right of returning the members was vested in the corporation, which could take no part in returning members for the hundred. Mr. Sergeant Onslow observed, that the circumstance of a person possessing a freehold in a town having a right to vote for both the town and county was by no means uncommon. If they acted, therefore, on the principle of excluding persons from a county vote, because he had already a vote in the hundred, the next step would be, to deprive those who had a vote in a town of their vote for the county. He protested against depriving any man of his franchise on speculative grounds. He was friendly to the principle adopted in the case of Shoreham. The report was ordered to be received on Monday, the 21st February next, till which time the writ for the borough was suspended. INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.] Lord Althorp brought in the Insolvent Debtors bill, and moved its first reading. Mr. Calcraft wished to call the attention of the noble lord to a part of his speech on a former day, which, contrary to his intentions he was sure, had wounded the feelings of a most respectable individual, whom he had known for a number of years. He alluded to the late chief clerk of the Insolvent Debtors court. Lord Althorp said, he was sorry that any thing he had said should have wounded the feelings of the individual in question. He certainly did not intend to do so. In the course of the investigation before the committee nothing came out which would (40) warrant any imputation against him. He had stated that he was glad that his majesty's ministers had removed every officer of the court, because from the manner in which the court had been conducted, it had lost the confidence of the public, and could not go on. In stating this, however, he did not intend to throw out any imputation against the individual in question. The bill was then read a first time, and the second reading was fixed for the 16th of February. NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL.] Lord Castlereagh moved the order for the farther consideration of the report of the Newspaper Stamp Duties bill, for the purpose of re-committing it. Mr. J. Smyth said, he had that day seen a great many persons connected with the book trade, who were of opinion that their interests would be much affected by this bill. He hoped the noble lord would 'therefore allow full time for the consider ation of so important a measure. The booksellers, notwithstanding the alterations which had been made, were still in the greatest alarm. He was willing to believe that it was not the intention of the noble lord to affix a stamp duty to certain publications respecting which their apprehensions were excited, but the bill as now worded would have the effect of doing so. It would require a day or two at least to examine the bill to see in what way it would operate. He wished to know from the noble lord whether time would be granted for the proper examination of this bill? he agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman; but he candidly confessed, that if some measures were not taken to deliver the country from the abuses of the press, he thought the consequences would be pregnant with danger and calamity. All the changes introduced consisted in mitigating and narrowing the operation of the measure. If gentlemen opposite objected to the details, they might be discussed on Monday, but he had hoped that the principle would be debated this night. Mr. Brougham said, that the principle of the bill was so involved and mixed up with the details, that it was impossible to discuss the principle till the details of the arrangement were known. Lord Castlereagh observed, that after the arrangements were agreed to in the committee on Monday, the discussion on the principle might take place. Mr. Brougham hoped that between this and Monday such alterations might be devised as would secure the interests of this trade, not merely for the sake of the trade itself, but for the sake of the community. His objection was chiefly directed to the principle of resorting to stamp duties, not as a means of revenue, but of prohibition of publication. The bill was ordered to be recommitted/ on Monday. ARMY ESTIMATES.] The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred, Lord Palmerston said, that the House had seen the abstracts of the estimates on Lord Castlereagh said, he would consent the table. It had not yet been in his to have the bill re-committed on Monday power to make out the usual detailed next. He did not think it would be ad-estimates for the year. At present his visable to fix a later day, as it was desir- object was merely to move a vote of cerable that a measure of the kind should be tain sums on account. After the recess discussed with the fullest attendance. In the detailed estimates should be laid before the interval between this and Monday, the House in the usual form. The sum now the bill might uudergo the examination required was nearly one million and a which gentlemen wished. half, which included the expenses incurred by the call of out-pensioners, and the forming of them into royal veteran battalions, up to Christmas. The noble lord then moved-" That it is the opinion of this committee that a sum exceeding 900,000l. be granted to his majesty, towards defraying the charge of his majesty's land forces, for service at home and abroad, excepting the regiments employed in Ireland and the territorial possessions of the East India company, for the year 1820." Mr. J. P. Grant said, it appeared to him that this was by far the most important of all the measures proposed to parliament, principally when considered as the foundation of future legislation. He put it, therefore, to the noble lord, whether there was any necessity for pressing it forward at present. It seemed to him to require the most mature consideration. Lord Castlereagh said, that the principle of the bill seemed to his majesty's ministers to be of great importance. So far not Mr. Calcraft said, he should not press the discussion of the subject against the wish of the House, but it did appear strange, that when 10 or 12,000 men were added to a standing army in time of peace, and that standing army too the largest that ever was known in the country at any similar time, the noble lord should pass it over as an ordinary matter of business which called for no explanation. Though he was not prepared, under all the circumstances of the country to say that he should peremptorily oppose the calling out of the pensioners, yet he thought it the duty of members, to awaken the jealousy of the country to such proceedings. He hardly knew, however, how to begin a discussion on which he should be ready to enter, as the noble lord had given no reasons for the vote. He saw too, among the votes, a sum for the military college. He, for one, should object to that vote at that moment, as the utility of that application of money was very questionable. He had rather that the noble lord should take a sum on account generally, without specifying particular heads, as parliament would then be pledged to no principle, except, perhaps, that of the increase of the army, by calling out the pensioners. Lord Palmerston said, the House had at the beginning of the session been made acquainted with the increase of the army. He had proposed a vote generally for the service of one quarter; and he should have no objection to propose a vote for the whole on account, without specifying particular services, with the exception of that for the military college and asylum, which did not pass through the hands of the paymaster-general, and which it was from that reason necessary to have under a separate head. But if any gentleman wished to put an end to the military college, it would not certainly be proposed to abolish it before the 24th of March, and it was only till that time that the sum to be voted would supply the establishment. The expense of the college was less than it had been last year, as reductions were in progress. It would be desirable, too, that the measure of calling out the pensioners should be recognized by a vote. Mr. Calcraft intimated that he should leave the subject for discussion at a future period. Colonel Davies said, he had the strongest objections to the military college. He wished to know what the increase of 100,000l. on the charge for volunteer corps arose from? It was to be observed, that though not more than half the items of the estimates were brought forward, there was an increase on them of half a million beyond the last year. Lord Palmerston said, the number of volunteer and yeomanry corps had been increased. The exact number he could not state, as the services of those corps were accepted, not by the War office, but by the home department. The increase on the estimates was merely on the volunteer service, and from the charges of calling out the pensioners. Colonel Davies said, that after all the professions and pledges of economy and retrenchment which the House had heard last session from his majesty's ministers, he had hoped they would have made some sincere and effectual effort to redeem their promises. It now appeared that he had been deceived in such an expectation. He therefore embraced that occasion of giving notice, that he should on some night immediately after the recess, move for a committee to inquire into the whole of the army expenditure. In the state in which the country was placed, it was their duty to look to every possible means of lessening the public expenses. The vote was then agreed to. MISDEMEANORS BILL.] The report of this bill was brought up. Lord Ebrington said, that as he had opposed all the other new measures which had been proposed to the House, he was glad to state that the clause in this bill which limited the time for prosecuting exofficio informations, met with his warm approbation. Mr. Denman said, he considered the bill as an improvement in the law of England. Though he was not desirous of clogging its progress by the addition of clauses, he should mention, that as the law now stood, every prosecutor on a misdemeanor had the power, without cause assigned, of removing the cause by certiorari to the King's-bench, by which process it often happened, that if the defendant was found guilty, he had to pay much more for expenses than any fine imposed on him by the court. Now, as the defendant was to be prohibited from removing the case, without showing cause, the prosecutor should in like manner be restrained. Unless some gentlemen of greater weight took the matter up, he should bring it before the House. He snggested too, that it would be an improvement on the bill if the certiorari was not to issue without a notice to the opposite party. Mr. Bernal suggested that the officers of the Crown should, in the case of exofficio information, be allowed to enter a nolle prosequi, without putting the defendant to the trouble of an application to the court. Mr. G. Lamb said, that having originally put the question respecting the limiting of ex-officio informations, which had been so satisfactorily answered by the clause of the bill before them, he felt it his duty to state his approbation of the alteration which had been made. He trusted, too, that this would be sent out to the country as the only permanent measure, and that the other bills would be considered as medicines beneficial only for the moment. The Attorney General inserted as an amendment after the words directing an application to the court, the words "free of all expense to the party applying." Mr. Denman said it had been doubted (though he believed it applied to Wales) whether it applied to that country. The Attorney General said it certainly did. The report was agreed to. HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, December 20. SEDITIOUS MEETINGS PREVENTION BILL.] The House resolved itself into a committee on this bill. On the clause respecting the persons allowed to attend meetings, the earl of Lauderdale objected to the phrase, "usually residing," and moved to leave out the word usually." The Lord Chancellor observed, that the word was necessary, as by law a person might be an inhabitant of a place in certain cases without residence. Lord Holland remarked upon the mischievous absurdity of the clause thus worded, which would exclude from attending the meeting, in many instances, persons possessed of property or interest in the parish in which the meeting was called, or subject them, for attending, to severe punishment. Earl Grosvenor observed, that if this clause passed, it would be necessary to obtain an inspector of faces in every dis trict, in order to ascertain those who had a right to attend meetings. The Lord Chancellor expressed his surprise that the noble earl, who had such an aversion to sinecures, should desire the creation of a new sinecure. Lord Erskine observed, that though this clause allowed freeholders, copyholders, and inhabitants, to attend these meetings, yet there were other persons who were not permitted-himself, for instance, who had a lease for 1,000 years, of about 1,000 acres, in one parish, where, nevertheless, he was not an inhabitant. He could not, under this bill attend any meeting in that parish, however much his interests might be connected with the object of it, because he did not come under any description of persons within the parish authorized to attend meetings. He objected, however, to the whole of the clause, conceiving that it only tended to irritate the public mind, whilst, in point of fact, it was unnecessary to the object which the framers of the bill had in view. There were provisions to prevent persons coming armed to prevent military array-to prevent banners, &c.; and surely these provisions would be sufficient without enacting vexatious and irritating regulations as to the classes of persons who were to be authorized to attend public meetings. The Earl of Liverpool said, the question for the House to consider was, whether they were seriously disposed to get rid of tumultuous and violent meetings. If so, those proposed. Every man in the counthey must adopt enactments similar to try had sufficient means of knowing the penalties that attached to a breach of the law, and therefore could not plead ignorance. It had been objected, that the clause as it now stood was made to apply to meetings respecting trade; but the reason of that was, that meetings in rooms," were allowed to take place free of the operation of the bill. Before this exception was admitted, it was thought right to make the restriction applicable only to meetings relative to church or state. With regard to meetings in the open air, there were only two ways of regulating them-either by limiting them as to numbers, or as to locality. The limitation of numbers was best; but that was found impracticable, and therefore the limitation of locality was adopted. County meetings called by the sheriffs or others having authority under the bill, were left untouched, though originally county meetings consisted only of freeholders. | position on the subject came before parThe meeting formed the county court. liament, it would receive his consideraHe knew that a different practice had tion. The case was, however, very grown up, and nothing in the bill was different, when it was proposed, in legisinimical to the continuance of that prac-lating for a new object, to prevent assumtice. With respect to parish meetings, ing a right from colourable freeholds. the object of the bill was, to exclude all That surely was a question fit for their persons not inhabiting the parish, with lordships to entertain. The clause made the exception of freeholders and copy- no distinctions for persons resident in the holders having property to a certain parish, as they were all allowed to attend. amount in the parish. He had no objection to state the ground on which this qualification had been introduced. There had been recent instances of persons having got colourable freeholds for the purpose of voting at elections. It was, therefore, thought right, in the concoction of this measure, to adopt some means of preventing that fraud by which persons who had nothing to do with a parish might be enabled to attend meetings. The property was therefore fixed at as low an amount as possible, with the view of the possession of it in the parish being readily known. He had no doubt that, when the bill came into operation, no difficulty in holding meetings would arise from this part of the clause. The Marquis of Lansdowne wished to know why the privilege of attendance was given to freeholders of 50l. a year, and denied to persons of less property. This was making an unjust distinction, and was contrary to analogy with respect to the right of voting, as every freeholder having 40s. a year in property had that right. Every institution was liable to abuse; but if colourable freeholds were not a reason for interfering with the important right of 40s. freeholders voting for members of parliament, how could it be thought a sufficient ground for preventing their attendance at parish meetings? A principle sanctioned by the practice of ages was thus far done away by this bill. He should therefore move, that the words" fifty pounds" be omitted, in order to substitute "forty shillings." The Earl of Liverpool, in reference to what the noble marquis had said on the subject of freeholders, observed, that if his object was to ascertain whether he did not think the practice of 40s. freeholders voting at elections an evil which might be corrected, he would answer in the affirmative. He certainly was not prepared to offer any proposition to parliament on the practice of voting for colourable freeholds, which had grown up contrary to the original intention of the law; but if any pro Earl Grosvenor allowed that the rich and poor, who were resident, were put on an equal footing; but a great distinction was made between the rich and the poor who were not resident. Their lordships should recollect that this bill was not giving a right, but taking it away. When all distinction was abandoned with respect to inhabitants, why should it exist for non-residents? The Earl of Harrowby observed, that as the clause now stood, it would have the effect of preventing itinerant orators, and other persons who had no property in a parish, obtaining a colourable right to attend meetings. Lord Holland could not agree with what the noble earl at the head of the treasury had said respecting county meetings. He believed that if the ancient history of such meetings were examined, it would be found that every man, whether freeholder, copyholder, or no holder at all, might attend them. It was true that if a meeting of freeholders only were called, others were excluded by the terms of the summons; but what he contended for was, that every man had a right to meet with those of his own class in county meetings, or some way or other, to consider of grievances and to petition. The noble earl had contended, that this bill did not take away the right, but only regulated it. It, however, did take away the right of meeting in parishes from all non-resident freeholders who had not property to the amount of 50l. a year. It was very much the custom with the supporters of measures like the present to attribute every evil to the French revolution; and yet what they pretended to correct were evils which never existed in the French revolution; and the remedy was one to which he believed the horrors of the French revolution were chiefly owing. There had been no great public meetings in France, but innumerable parish or small meetings. When their lordships came to another stage of the bill, he would show what mischief might be expected to |