STATE OF THE COUNTRY.] Lord Althorp said, he could most unaffectedly assure the House, that he felt more oppressed on the present occasion, than he had ever before done when the House had honoured him by listening to what he had to offer to their notice. The importance of the question struck him as very great, even when he gave notice of his intended motion; but what had occurred since he meant the introduction of those bills, the object of which the noble lord last night stated-had increased the importance of the question so extremely, that he felt unfeignedly sorry he was the person destined to bring forward this momentous subject. He wished very much that some person more able to impress its importance on the House than he was, had given notice of the motion; but feeling it to be his most imperious duty to draw the attention of the House to the subject, and having given notice that he would do so, he begged of the House to extend to him that indulgence, while he delivered his sentiments, which they had frequently done on former occasions. On all sides of the House it was admitted, that the state of the country was most alarming. Every gentleman on the other side of the House had allowed that great cause of alarm existed, though that alarm was traced to different sources. If, then, it was agreed by all, that the country was thus situated, surely it was necessary that the House, in passing the measures which they were called on to adopt, should proceed with the utmost deliberation, and take the greatest possible pains to satisfy themselves that what they did was not only not more than was necessary, but that the measures they pursued were exactly applicable to the danger which appeared to threaten the state. It was, therefore, necessary for the House to be clearly convinced, that the existing laws were not sufficient to meet the exigencies of the time; that measures of a coercive and vigorous nature were necessary to be resorted to; and, lastly, that the bills proposed by the noble lord were those which were exactly applicable to the dangers that were to be encountered and which they had reason to hope would check it. To enable them to come to this conclusion, it appeared to him, that every possible information should be laid before the House. He did not pretend to recollect precedents, but he believed such a question was never before brought under the consideration of the House, without full information being laid on their table, to enable them to understand correctly all the circumstances connected with the situation of the country. There were only two grounds on which the House could agree to the measures now proposed-either a perfect confidence in his majesty's ministers, a decided conviction that they would propose nothing that was not proper; or that the papers laid before parliament gave the most full and complete information respecting the state of the country. Now, with respect to the first point, he thought no gentleman would argue that measures of this kind ought to be carried merely on the principle that confidence was due to his majesty's ministers. Therefore, he inferred, that the House, in agreeing to the adoption of severe measures, ought to be satisfied that the information contained in those papers afforded a full justification of their conduct. Alluding to the papers that had been laid on the table, he should state generally, the impression which they had made on his mind. They might be divided into two distinct classes-those that referred to the period preceding the 16th of August, and those that related to circumstances which occurred subsequently to that time. The statements contained in those papers showed, that in Lancashire the magistrates apprehended considerable danger before the 16th of August. But after the meeting, Mr. Spooner wrote word, that "he was perfectly satisfied the rising was not likely to take place in that part of the country." Danger, therefore, was not then apprehended there. Lord Fitzwilliam, who was attending the assizes at York, wrote, "that there was no disposition to create a disturbance amongst the inhabitants of the West Riding of the county of York." With respect to Lancashire, an alteration seemed to have taken place since the meeting of the 16th of August. Prior to that period it was said, that a system of training had been adopted, but no mention was made of arms. after the meeting of the 16th of August, arms were alleged to have been prepared. Since the events of the 16th of August, symptoms of irritation were observable, it was stated, in different parts of the country. Meetings had taken place in Yorkshire and in Scotland, and a simultaneous meeting, for purposes which had not before been contemplated, was spoken of as fixed for the 1st of November. He would wish to call the attention But of the House to this point, because he conceived that this also would form part of the examination which his motion would call for. It appeared, that the meeting of the 16th of August was assembled for the discussion of a particular question. There was no mention before that, that it was to be for an illegal purpose; but since then quite another character and account had been given of it. Now, he wished to impress this upon the consideration of the House, because it showed that there were chasms and defects in the information before them, which ought to be filled up, before they could well consider of, or agree to, the measures proposed by the noble lord. It would, indeed, in his opinion, be quite inconsistent with the duties of the House to pass any such measures, without the most deep and serious consideration; first, into the causes which were said to require them, and then into the necessity of the measures themselves. Disturbances were said to have taken place in Scotland: into these he would wish that inquiry should be made; for he again begged to remind the House that it would be impossible to provide any effectual remedy, unless the origin and nature of the disorders were precisely ascertained. The state of the county of Lancaster was alluded to, but it would not be sufficient that we should know what had occurred on the 16th of August, but also what had occurred previously to that time. Full and complete information was necessary in order that the proposed measures should not act merely as a palliative or a temporary, but should operate as an effectual and permanent remedy. The statements of the noble lord (Castlereagh) and of his colleagues would not be sufficient. The assertions of any honourable members could not be taken for facts in debate where the proof of those assertions was not given. The chief ground on which ministers went, was the letter of Mr. Hay, but this itself required much explanation; His majesty's ministers had since seen, and held conversations with that gentleman, and they were bound to explain what they had further heard upon the subject of the letter. Unless they did so, it was impossible for the House to form any correct judgment on it. Indeed, the state ments of the noble lord (Castlereagh) were quite at variance, or at least very different from those which had been given by Mr. Hay. Mr. Hay stated in his letter, that the Riot act had been read, and the meeting dispersed. The noble lord opposite said, that the Riot act was read three times, and that one of the magistrates, in his attempt to read it, was knocked down and trampled on. Now, it was somewhat strange, that if this circumstance had occurred, it should not have been mentioned by Mr. Hay. Nothing could be more natural, than that he should have noticed this serious accident occurring to one of his brother magistrates. If then, such a difference arose between the statements of the noble lord and those of Mr. Hay, did it not show clearly the necessity of further information? The House, he contended, had a right to be informed of every thing which took place, not merely at the meeting of the 16th, but also what had occurred previously and subsequently to that period; for it was upon the whole of these matters that the measures of the noble lord were said to be founded. The House had at least a right to expect, that in forming their judgment upon those measures they should be put on the same footing with respect to information as the ministers themselves. Another point respecting the meeting, which, in his opinion, the House should have explained, was the absence of the general of the district, sir John Byng, on the occasion. It was very generally said, and he believed it, that if sir John Byng had been present, the result of the meeting would not have been as fatal as it was. Why, then, was he not present? It would naturally be supposed that, as the commanding officer of that district, he should be at the post of danger. It was not, however, the case; but what was the cause? Why, the magistrates themselves acknowledge that sir John Byng was at Manchester on the 14th, and offered his personal assistance in case it should be found necessary; but the magistrates informed him that there was no danger, and that his attendance would not be required. Sir John Byng then said, that he would be within the reach of an express, and would attend if it should be deemed necessary. He was not, however, sent for. Now, if there was any blame to be attributed in this respect, it should be to the magistrates, who had declared the attendance of the gallant general unnecessary. At all events, the fact was one which showed a strong ground for farther inquiry, and it was, even if nothing else was concerned, due to the characters of all the parties, that such inquiry should be instituted. Another point to which he wished to draw | posed by a delay for inquiry. As to the the attention of the House was, that a measure which went to prevent military great portion of the matter which had drillings, he would not argue. He saw been laid before them was upon anonymous in those drillings nothing of good and evidence. It might be necessary, he much of evil. With respect to the meawould not deny, that in some cases, where sure proposed for repressing them, thereevidence was given of the state of dis- fore, he offered no opposition. But the turbed districts, the names of the per- other measures he could not consider in sons giving it should be concealed; but the same point of view. That which rethen, did it not look in this, and indeed stricted the right of traverse to indictin almost all cases, like the evidence of ments under particular circumstances, spies? Did it not seem as if some of the could not operate until the next assizes. persons had made the evidence for the The delay, therefore, would not affect purpose of giving it? What was more that. Then it was next proposed, that a natural under such circumstances than to power should be given to search for arms. believe that the persons who swore to the Now, it did not appear, from any thing existence of pikes in several places, might contained in the papers before the House, have purchased them for the sake of giving or from any thing which the noble lord information afterwards? At all events, opposite had said, that they had been acwas not anonymous testimony obtained cumulated in such numbers as to render under such circumstances to be viewed a short delay of the measures respecting with suspicion? Indeed, it could not be them dangerous. There might have been otherwise, if the House recollected what twenty or thirty pikes in the possession had occurred on this subject two years of individuals in particular places; but ago. He would then put it to the House, that, in his mind, was not sufficient to whether they ought to pass the proposed warrant the immediate passing of the measures on such evidence-whether they proposed measure, without a strict inquiry. would let the matter rest on the prudence, With respect to the suppression of meetthe discretion, and integrity of such in- ings, he contended, that when magistrates formants, as they were told gave this in- were prepared to oppose their violence, if formation, but of whom they, knew no. any, when it was seen that they had suffithing more than that it was said they gave cient force to disperse the largest of them, it? He contended that such a proceeding, it could not be supposed that any danger would be calculated more to excite and could result from a delay of the measures increase, than to diminish the public respecting them. It might or might not alarm. be necessary at other periods, to pass some of the proposed bills; but what he contended for was, that there could no danger arise at present from that kind of delay which would be necessary for the purposes of inquiry. In every state there might be some political evils, but when it was proposed to correct those evils, the measures by which that was to be effected should be seriously and maturely considered. As to the objection respecting the Manchester magistrates, he contended that it was not a fair one. He did not think that it had been properly brought against the amendment of his right hon. friend on a former evening; nor did he think it was of greater weight against the motion with which he should conclude. His motion, like the amendment to which he alluded, was made with a view to information upon those subjects in which the House were called to legislate. Those gentlemen who said that the country was in danger; that all law and authority were attempted to be trampled under foot ; that These were the reasons which occurred to him to show that a committee ought to be appointed to take the whole of the matters into consideration. One objection which he supposed would be urged against his proposition was, that it would occasion a very inconvenient delay; and another, that it would embrace an inquiry into the conduct of the magistrates at Manchester, which it was said would more properly come before another tribunal. To the first he might use the argumentum ad hominem, and say, that if the noble lord and his colleagues had known of those proceed ings at Manchester and elsewhere before the 16th of August, why had they not called parliament together sooner? But this argument he did not mean to press, because if the House believed just grounds for interference to exist, they might fairly say, that the country should not suffer because the noble lord was to blame. He denied, however, that any inconvenience could arise on the principal measures pro every thing which we held dear in this life and sacred in the next, were brought into ridicule and contempt;-such gentlemen surely would not contend that inquiry as to our real situation should be retarded, because something might possibly come out against Mr. Norris or Mr. Hay. Why, if those gentlemen were innocent, nothing could come out which would affect them; and if guilty, it would not be contended that they ought to be screened from the consequences of their acts. He did not mean to prejudice the magistrates in any way, but he maintained that their conduct, whatever it might have been, ought not to be placed as a bar to inquiry upon such important questions as were before the House. upon to adopt the severe measures proposed by that noble lord upon no other information than the garbled and imperfect statements contained in the papers which had been laid on the table.-Those statements were not sufficient to warrant the House in supporting the proposed measures. The papers in question afforded ample evidence in support of an observation made by an hon. baronet on a former evening, that if the law had been stretched beyond its proper limits, it was the fault of those whose duty it was to put it in execution. Were the House to shut their eyes on what was passing around them? were they to view with unconcern the demand made for a greater extension of power than was ever before vested in any ministers? It appeared from the papers before the House, that there was a design on the part of ministers to introduce despotism, and to trample on the liberties of the people. If there were any doubt on that point, the approval by the noble lord opposite of the principles laid down by the right hon. member for the university of Dublin was sufficient to remove it. That right hon. gentleman had urged, that if magistrates entertained a fear that the public peace was to be disturbed by the assemblage of large bodies of people, they had a right to disperse them, and if blood were shed in consequence of such a proceeding, the magistrates would be justified. This opinion was hailed with enthusiasm by the legal gentlemen on the other side of the House, and re-echoed with enthusiasm by the noble lord himself. The papers on the table were, in his opinion, an argument against, rather than in favour of, the measures of ministers. It appeared that government had been aware of the fact, He had now briefly stated his reasons why an inquiry should take place into the state of the country. He had pressed the necessity of having full information on the subjects before the House, and had endeavoured to point out the defects in that which had already been given, and to answer the objections against having farther information. Perhaps what he had urged would not be sufficient, if the House had not heard the measures proposed by the noble lord-measures which he had listened to with astonishment and deep regret. He regretted that it was not in his power to express the feelings which the mention of such measures excited, but he conceived it dishonourable and disgraceful to sacrifice the rights and privileges of the people in a case of only temporary alarm. The noble lord concluded, amidst loud cheers, by moving, "That the Papers relative to the Internal State of the Country, presented to this House by command of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, be referred to a Select Committee, to examine the matters thereof, and to re-that training had been carried on to a conport their observations thereupon to the House." Colonel Davies, in seconding the motion, expressed his regret at perceiving that his majesty's ministers anxiously seized upon the state of alarm into which the country had been temporarily thrown, in order to invade the rights and liberties of the people. He should deem himself unworthy of the confidence of his constituents, or of a seat in that House, if he did not stand forward and express his disapprobation. He fully agreed with an hon. friend of his, in expressing his surprise at the awful denunciation of the noble lord opposite. He was astonished to find the House called siderable extent that they knew of large bodies having been assembled for this purpose in different places-that it was difficult for persons to pass about their ordinary business without being interrupted by these men-and yet no measures were taken to prevent such proceedings [Hear, hear!]. The papers were also evidence that arms were openly manufactured and disposed of in different districts, and yet no steps were taken by the magistrates, who were vested with the power, to prevent it. He was aware that such proceedings ought to be stopped; he felt, too, that the wild spirit which had gone abroad ought to be repressed; seeing that it were double what they had been at that period. This showed that there was something radically wrong in the present system. He did not wish to resort to the cant term of reform, but it was evident some revision was imperatively necessary. He had heard the state of this country compared to that of France prior to the revolution. At that period France laboured under the most arbitrary despotism, and the revolution was hailed as the dawn of freedom. If the French government had not been deaf to the warning voice of public opinion-if they had attended to the interests of the people, that dreadful scene of bloodshed which ensued would not have taken place, and the unfortunate monarch of that country would not have terminated his existence as he had done. Was this country to go on without being made wiser by experience, until the dreadful lesson was brought home to them. If ministers persevered in the measures which they had acted upon, then it required no great spirit of prophecy to foretel that it must end in a despotism. The hon. member concluded by giving his most cordial support to the motion of his noble friend. tended to demoralize the people. If the law was not strong enough to do this, he was willing to arm it with additional power -with power sufficient to crush disaffection wherever it appeared. But let the House examine the measures proposed as a remedy. He, for one, dissented from them, as he considered them calculated to subvert the constitution. But, as if these measures were insufficient to suppress disaffection, ministers called for an additional armed force! Let him, how ever, ask the House what it was which caused this discontent aed disaffection? They could not conceal from themselves that an excessive load of taxation was the cause. This it was which caused the distress and misery which were to be found in all parts of the country. And, with this fact before their eyes, were the measures of the noble lord the best mode of redress? If the people complained of their sufferings, were they to be answered by military execution-if they remonstrated, were they to be told that their only answer should be the bayonet? It appeared that government having once drawn the sword, were determined to throw away the scab. bard. If the manufacturing districts were in a state of rebellion, and were to be ruled with a rod of iron, how, he would ask, was such a system to be supported by military force? It was impossible to go on in such a manner without subverting the constitution. It was taxation-taxation unequalled in the annals of history which reduced the country to this miserable situation. They had at present a revenue which was decreasing at the rate of five millions a year: though new taxes were added, still there was a decrease. Was this a system which could support measures of coercion? If ministers were desirous of relieving the wants of the country-if they showed themselves not inattentive to the feelings and distresses of the people, they would, instead of adding new taxes, practise economy and retrenchment in every branch of the public expenditure: but there never was a set of men less inclined to do this than the present ministry. He had a short time since occasion to look into the department of the military establishment, and he was sickened at heart to find the degree of ex-in the address and amendment, and contravagance which was carried on in all its branches. The expenses in that department were, now that we were in the fifth year of peace, double what they were in 1806. The salaries in the different offices Mr. Bathurst opposed the motion, and expressed his great regret at seeing the noble lord lending himself to such measures as those which he now advocated. It was with regret he saw those most respectable gentlemen who formed what was called the Opposition, pursuing their present course at a moment when the state of the country was such as to require the united efforts of the House to restore it to tranquillity. If the noble lord and his hon. friends conceived that by their present course they would conciliate the radicals, whom certainly they did not defend, but whose conduct they endeavoured to prevent the House from inquiring into-if they imagined that they would conciliate those men, they would, he thought, find themselves much mistaken. The House, he contended, stood pledged by the address, which was voted, to the opinion that those persons called radicals were wrong, and that their proceedings ought to be put down.-The right hon. gentleman here adverted to, and repeated several passages tended, that by them, all parties in the House were pledged to give their aid, collectively and individually, to repress those practices which were complained of as disturbing the state of the country. It |