denied having said any thing with regard to the principles recognized in the bill of rights, that could admit of the interpretation given by the noble lord. Nothing that fell from him could justify the inference, that it held out one law for the rich and another for the poor. He was as proud of the Bill of Rights as any noble lord could be; but at the same time he considered that it did not hold out a single protection to him, or to their lordships, which it did not equally afford to every class of his majesty's subjects. In alluding to that part of the bill which allows the subject to have arms for his own protection he did not sacrifice a single principle; and while he continued in public life, he would pledge himself, that as far as it could depend on him, the subject should never lose the benefit of a single word or letter which it contained. It was not against having arms for his own protection, but against using them for the destruction of the constitution, that either what he had said, or what the bill before the House provided, could fairly be supposed to apply. The Marquis of Buckingham said, he should not object to this bill, because it was one not for disarming the people, but for preventing them from using their arms against the constitution. He had been surprised to hear his noble friend accuse the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, of having misquoted the Bill of Rights, and of having said that there should be one law for the rich, and another for the poor-that the one had a right to keep arms in his possession, and that the other had no such right. He could not conceive on what grounds these charges were founded; for what the noble and learned lord had said was, that every man was entitled to have arms suitable to his protection; and that, the moment he rose in arms against the constitution, it was the duty of parliament to interpose, not, indeed, to prevent him from having arms, but to take care that he should not use them in overturning the constitution of the country. The noble lord had deprecated the interference of parliament by any new legislative enactments. But what had their lordships on the former evening been discussing? What was the question that had then been agitated? Was not the proposition of the noble marquis (Lansdowne) that they should go into an inquiry? And yet the noble lord now objected to these measures, because they would throw upon parliament the onus and the odium of interposing. It was important, considering the nature of the evil for which a remedy was now required, that no time should be lost. They were at present placed between two difficulties. He agreed with the noble lord in thinking that one of the greatest mischiefs that arose from ill-designing persons creating alarm in the country, was the necessity of giving a great preponderance of power to the crown. But they must either make sacrifices to obviate this difficulty, or compromise the safety of the state by not checking those whose object was to overturn it. He had heard a great deal about its being the duty of parliament to conciliate the people; and he had waited long to hear in what manner this conciliation was to be accomplished. No doubt the principle was a good one, and parliament ought to adopt it, if it was practicable. The noble lords had all said, that concili atory measures ought to be resorted to; but they had not told the House till now, what measures would satisfy the people. Now, however, it was said by the noble lord, that nothing more or less than a reform in parliament was necessary, and that nothing else would satisfy the people. He did not wish at present to enter into a discussion on the propriety or impropriety of granting a reform in parliament. He himself had a distinct idea on the subject; but how was it with the noble lords? There were not two of them who agreed in their views of the question. The people at their public meetings had declared, that they would not be contented unless they obtained annual parliaments and universal suffrage; and therefore, the noble lords must either offer the people what they would throw back in their face, or they must agree to the measures proposed. Lord Holland, in explanation, denied that he had charged his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, with misquoting the Bill of Rights. All he intended to convey was, that he had frittered away a part of it in his version. The noble and learned lord had taken high dudgeon at this. As he had since explained himself, no doubt could be entertained with respect to the meaning of his words; but as they were first delivered, he (lord Holland) being something of an angler, thought he had a good bite [a laugh]. The noble marquis was guilty of an inaccuracy, when he supposed him to have recommended parliamentary reform as the means of conciliation. He had not, in fact, mentioned parliamentary reform at all, or even if he had, the noble marquis, who had certainly formed a distinct opinion on the subject, might allow him the credit of having a distinct one also. still he must look to causes, and he would say, that those physicians who did not examine minutely, but took the symptom for the disorder, might kill the patient, but would never cure the disease. He returned his acknowledgments to their lordships for the attention with which they had listened to him. In the situation in which he stood, he was anxious that his opinion should be known, as well from his attachment to the constitution, as from the affection he entertained for the interests of the people. The Earl of Darnley thought it his duty to give his support to some of the measures before the House. With respect to the arming bill, it was universally admitted that such a measure could be justified only on the ground of necessity. The only objection which he was prepared to make to this bill he should take the liberty of throwing out at present, for the consideration of the noble lord opposite. thought it extremely dangerous to give to any man the power of entering another's He The Duke of Sussex said, he rose in consequence of the speech of the noble marquis who had attacked that side of the House as if, in general, the principles of radical reform were adopted by them; and he wished that noble lords, when they spoke of any individuals, or, indeed, of any mat. ter whatever should be correct in what they stated to the House. He did not agree in opinion with those who approved of all the measures that were brought for ward; but he would take that opportunity of stating his acquiescence in the bills then under their lordships' consideration. He regretted to hear from the other side of the House opinions which implied the imputation, that noble lords on his side were inimical to the interests of the state; they felt they were contending for the in-house at night; and, if possible, it would terests of the country as much as the noble lords opposite; and while he differed very much from them in political sentiment, he should endeavour so to express his dissent as not to inflame the public mind. He should beg leave to advert to what had fallen from the learned lord;for any subject connected with the Bill of Rights, with Magna Charta, or any other of the great barriers of the constitution, every one must feel to be important. The learned lord would allow him to say, with every respect for his character, and with great deference to his legal knowledge, that when he stated his opinion that certain proceedings were treasonable, he (his Royal Highness) should have wished that the learned lord had been in the situation of attorney-general when these proceedings occurred, because he was convinced that that opinion, if stated and acted upon by the attorney-general, would have relieved the country from a great part of the evil now said to exist. He would state to the noble marquis, that although he was not a radical reformer, he had an opinion on that subject; an opinion as distinct, and, he hoped, as constitutional, as that of the noble marquis himself; and whenever they should enter the lists of argument on the subject, he hoped they should fight fairly and manfully. He agreed with the noble lords opposite, that the House ought not to lose its time; but be expedient to avoid giving that power. He would not waste their lordships' time in arguing on the inexpediency of this provision, or of the present measures in general; but he would take the liberty of inquiring, before he decided, whether the present measures, supposing them to be necessary now, might not have been avoided, if a different course had been adopted by government. He apprehended they all considered the measure to be grounded on the fact, that arms were possessed by individuals for dangerous. purposes. From the papers on the table, however, he thought that this measure arose entirely from the transactions at Manchester on the fatal 16th of August. It was, no doubt, to be lamented, that itinerant demagogues were going about the country, and inflaming the minds of the people; but still it was known that meetings of the same description as that at Manchester had taken place in other parts of the country, and had separated without any bad consequences. He maintained, therefore, that whatever evil disposition there was in the situation of the country, it was mainly owing to the unfortunate conduct of the magistrates on that day, and to the subsequent conduct of ministers in stifling inquiry. If government had granted an inquiry, he was satisfied that the evils now to be provided against by these measures would not have existed. had some knowledge of the people by whom he was surrounded. He had taken great pains to ascertain their opinions, and though in the northern part of the county of Durham he considered at one period that they were quiet, he could not help observing that there were some symptoms not indicative of perfect tranquillity. They were silent, indeed, but their silence was of a sullen character. A meeting was held in the neighbourhood of Newcastle, the numbers of which were greatly increased by a difference Let the people be satisfied that parliament was prepared to do them justice by going into an inquiry, and then it would not be necessary to have recourse to measures of extraordinary severity. The noble marquis had said, that noble lords on the opposition side of the House, talked of conciliating the people, but did not tell how that was to be accomplished; and at last he had come to the subject of parliamentary reform. He was astonished to hear the noble marquis imputing to his noble friend the wish to establish annual parliaments and universal suffrage. Their lord-between the proprietors of the collieries ships would do his noble friend the justice to acknowledge, that he had said nothing that could warrant such an imputation. In answer to what the noble marquis had said on the subject of conciliation, it was only necessary to observe, that the measure of inquiry proposed by his noble friend (the marquis of Lansdowne) would have been most conciliating and satisfactory to the country. After some observations against the coercive system of ministers, the noble earl remarked, that in order to govern the people of this country, it was necessary to appeal to their hearts, not to their fears; and that_endeavouring to pass such laws as these would excite apprehensions that the object was to govern them by the bayonet. For his own part he must acknowledge, that he would rather be governed by the noble earl and the noble viscount opposite, than by Mr. Hunt and Dr. Watson; for any government however bad, was better than theirs. The Earl of Darlington expressed considerable diffidence in offering himself to the attention of their lordships, but he felt it a duty which he could not decline to address them for a few moments. He presented himself to their notice not merely as a person possessing some estate in the country, and respecting the laws and constitution under which he lived-not merely as a member of the legislature, in whose dignity and security he was interested-but as the holder of a situation under the Crown, which he had had the honour to fill ever since the year 1792. He had forborne to obtrude himself upon former occasions, but his name had been already introduced to their lordships' notice in the documents which were laid on the table by his majesty's ministers. It might be supposed, from his residence in the county of which he was about to speak, that he and their workmen. The meeting was bills went, he believed they were absolutely required. Though he was far from being an alarmist, when he saw such things pass before him, the existence of which he could not doubt any more than he could doubt his eye-sight, it was his duty to state that ministers were called upon to bring forward some measures extremely strong in order to meet the emergency. It would have been a matter of great satisfaction to him if an union could have taken place between both sides of the House on this occasion; but unhappily that was not accomplished. That inquiry should take place as to the causes which brought the country into this state, was a fact he was ready to admit; but it was foreign to the present question as foreign indeed as the question of reform, and like that only a waste of the time of the House. Reform was, in his opinion, to some extent necessary; but he should now conclude by stating, that with some trifling alterations the present bills had his approbation, as well as the other measures with which they were connected. The Earl of Strathmore rose also to make a statement to the House, which he thought it of importance that they should be acquainted with. He corroborated the statement of the noble lord who preceded him, on the subject of the meetings in the neighbourhood of Newcastle, which he described as inconsiderable in point of numbers at first. The last, however, was alarming, both in point of numbers, and with regard to the flags exhibited. The motto upon one of the flags was, "the day of retribution is at hand," and the device a death's head and bones. Though no mischief was done, he was convinced that they were ripe for mischief. He had certain information, that many persons attended the meeting with pistols, and had that day received a letter from a most respectable clergyman at Newcastle, which would show the extent to which the alarm had reached in that part of the country. The letter commenced by observing, that about twenty factious demagogues, who ought to be hanged or incarcerated, had done all the mischief, and succeeded in preparing the minds of the people for rebellion. It proceeded to state than an hon. and rev. gentleman, a magistrate of the county, the brother of a noble earl whom he did not then see in his place, had with his family taken refuge in that town. What must the state of (VOL. XLI.) that county be when magistrates were obliged to fly for refuge. He was glad that the noble lords who sat on the same side of the House with himself, had not objected to the bills under consideration. He hoped that no time would be lost in passing them, for he was sure their lordships must see that unless they were carried no man could answer for the safety of the country. Another fact, of which he wished to apprise the House, was, that the colliers were divided into different classes, consisting each of twenty persons, under the direction of a leader. The Black Dwarf, The Republican, The Cap of Liberty, and other blasphemous publications were the constant subjects of their study, and he feared were too successful in corrupting their minds. He trusted, however, that they would soon be convinced of the error of their ways. in addition to this, it was certain that there were 14 or 15,000 men on the banks of the Weir and the Tyne ready for rebellion. After what had been said of the northern part of Durham, he was much gratified at being able to bear testimony to the loyalty of the south-western district. There was little or no disaffection there, and he was persuaded that the great mass of the people were ready to defend the king, the constitution, and the laws. In the north of Yorkshire the same spirit prevailed, and he was persuaded would soon manifest itself in any case of danger. He had said thus much in corroboration of what had fallen from the noble earl, and in explanation of the letter he had received that morning, which he thought it of importance that the House should be acquainted with. The bills were then read a second time. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, December 2. SEDITIOUS MEETINGS PREVENTION BILL.] Lord Castlereagh having moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Seditious Meetings Prevention bill, Mr. M. A. Taylor begged leave to ask a question of the noble lord, whether it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to propose any alteration or amendment in the bill, or to allow it to stand in the state it then was: he was proceeding to discuss the matter, when the Speaker called him to order. Mr. M. A. Taylor resumed, and observed, that it was not his (2 Q) intention to debate on the subject before the House, but merely to ask a simple question. Lord Castlereagh was sure the hon. member had too much experience not to know that the committee was the place for discussing the details. Mr. Grenfell rose, and was about to state his opinion on the bill, when Lord Castlereagh put it to the hon. gentleman whether it would not be more convenient to give his sentiments on the question for the second reading. Mr. Grenfell acquiescing, the order of the day was read. The Solicitor General then got up to move the second reading of the bill, when Mr. Tierney observed, that if the noble lord did not intend to commence the debate, it was open to his hon. friend to speak. After some further discussion, in which lord Castlereagh, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Grenfell, the Speaker, and Mr. Perceval participated, Mr. Grenfell said, it was not his intention to detain the House at length, but he wished to avail himself of the opportunity of expressing the opinion he entertained of the general proposition, of which the bill before the House formed a part, and which engaged the almost exclusive attention of the country at large. He confessed that he stated that opinion under feelings of greater pain than any he had experienced from the first hour of his sitting in that House to the moment at which he spoke; for his sense of public duty compelled him to adopt a course decidedly opposite to that pursued by his hon. friends near him, with whom he had hitherto had the gratification of being politically connected, and with whom, notwithstanding this exception, he hoped to remain politically connected for life. He was one of those who had abstained from giving any vote, either on the amendment proposed by his right hon. friend to the address, or on the motion made by his noble friend on Tuesday. He had so abstained from feelings of a personal nature, and in doing so was not aware that he had been guilty of any dereliction of his public duty. He could assure his right hon. and his noble friend, that the only motives which induced him to abstain from voting on the occasions which he had mentioned were, his personal regard and affection for his right hon., and his respect for his noble friend. He could no longer, however, allow any private feeling to interfere with that line of conduct which his public duty seemed to him to demand. His only object in rising at that moment was to state, in the face of the House and of the country, that from the best consideration which he had been able to give to a subject which he was quite aware involved the dearest interests of the empire-from all the information which he had obtained on that subject, sanctioned and strengthened as that information was by the observations made on a recent evening by the noble lord who represented the county of Lancaster, he felt it incumbent on him to declare that, reserving to himself the right to object to any of the details of the measure, and to support any amendment to them, from what quarter soever it might proceed, and also reserving to himself the right of further consideration with respect to the expediency of making any or all the measures temporary in their application-he was prepared to give his steady and hearty concurrence and support to the principle of all the measures recommended by the noble lord on Monday last. Such were his opinions, and on those opinions he was prepared to act, and he should therefore assent to the second reading of the bill under consideration. The question being put for reading the bill a second time, The Solicitor General congratulated the House on the candid speech which had just fallen from the hon. gentleman, and said he flattered himself, that after the question should be fully investigated, and, after the true character of the measures which his majesty's government had thought it necessary to recommend should be fully developed, in addition to the vote of the hon. gentleman, those measures would claim and obtain the support of many other hon. gentlemen, who were not in the habit of acting politically with his majesty's ministers. In undertaking the duty which he was about to perform, he must request the indulgence of the House. It was a duty which, in consequence of the absence of his hon. and learned friend had been suddenly cast upon him since he came down to the House; and he must intreat the indulgence of the House with respect to the manner of his performing the task. Of course he was familiar with all the details of the measures in question; but it was a very different thing to be acquainted with those details, and to be prepared suddenly to unfold them with the distinctness and precision so desirable on such an occasion. He would endeavour, |