Lord Sidmouth said that the word "gun" was to be found in the bill. Lord Holland objected strongly to its insertion; admitting that, if an evil prevailed, it did not follow that this bill was a proper remedy; it might put an end even to some of the sports of the field; and though people in the country loved the constitution very well, they often loved the favour of an administration quite as dearly, and might give informations to answer any but useful purposes. The question was put on the amendment, and it was negatived. Lord Darnley persevered in his amendment for omitting the words, "or by night," but the question being put, it was rejected. The House was then resumed. TRAINING PREVENTION BILL.] Their lordships went into a committee on this bill. Lord Holland objected both to the permanency and generality of the measure; at least, he said it would be fit to exempt from its operation school-masters who might employ serjeants to drill boys under their tuition. The Earl of Liverpool replied, that he could not see how it was possible to frame the bill otherwise than as it now stood, if it was to be made effectual for its purposes. The bill prohibited all drilling, but it authorized lords-lieutenant to grant licences for drilling. This power he had no objection to have extended to other magistrates. It was not, therefore, to be apprehended that any of the inconveniences alluded to by the noble lord could arise from the bill as now constructed. The bill was then read, clause by clause, in the committee, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday next. Their lordships were about to retire, when The Earl of Strathmore requested the attention of their lordships for a few moments. He was anxious that the bills which were now passing should be carried into execution with all possible speed, and with the desired effect. He understood that the statement he had last night made of the numbers who associated in a part of the country with which he was connected, had just been called in question, and denied in another place. He could assure their lordships that that part of the country was much disturbed. What he had said last night of the numbers of the disaffected was rather below than above the mark. In confirmation of this statement he would refer to a noble duke, the lord-lieutenant of the neighbouring county to that in which he lived, whom he saw in the House. The laws which their lordships were enacting were not, in his apprehension, stronger than the necessity of the case required: he even doubted whether they would be sufficient for meeting the evils which they were intended to repress. Not a moment should be lost in putting them into execution, and most happy should he be to find that they affected their purpose without having recourse to more vigorous measures. There was not a man in the House more unwilling than he was to restrict or to suspend the constitutional rights of the people without the necessity. The Duke of Northumberland said, he had had no intention of obtruding himself upon the attention of their lordships; but having been so pointedly called upon, he could assure their lordships that the statement of the noble earl was not only strictly correct, but rather short of the real fact. By a return which had been made to him, upon the accuracy of which he could rely, the number associated in the several coliieries amounted to 16,600 persons. He understood that all these had arms. He had since understood, and they had themselves said, that in the district between the Tyne and the Weir, and extending to Carlisle, there were 100,000 men with arms, ready to rise and unite together. Lord Redesdale said, he had that morning received a letter from Newcastle, which enabled him most fully to corroborate, as from the latest accounts, the statements which had been made by both the noble duke and earl. The Earl of Strathmore said, he had just received intelligence that two of the most worthy magistrates in the county had been compelled to abandon their homes, through apprehension of the danger which threatened them. They were now actually residing with their families in the town of Newcastle. For his own part, he felt what was due to himself and the repose of that part of the country, and the moment he had heard of this transaction he had given orders to have his dedimus made out; and he could assure the House he would be found on his post in the hour of danger. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, December 3. IRELAND ARTICLES OF UNION.] Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald said, he wished to put to his right hon. friend a question of considerable importance to Ireland, respecting the repeal or continuance of certain duties, which, by the act of union, were to be collected for twenty years after the passing of that act. They were duties imposed on articles imported into Ireland, being of British produce or manufacture. In the present situation of Ireland, with respect to manufactures, it was of great moment to those interested, that they should be acquainted with what his majesty's government intended to do, with reference to this subject, in the present session of parliament: for in this session it must be decided, whether those duties should or should not be continued. His right hon. friend had, in courtesy to him, stated the course that was intended to be taken; but it was extremely important, that by a statement made in his place, the public in Ireland should also be apprized of his right hon. friend's intention. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was quite aware of the great importance of the question put by his right hon. friend. The subject was one of the utmost interest, and he was bound to say, had engaged the previous attention of the Treasury. Sufficient time had not elapsed to enable them to come to a final decision. But he must state to his right hon. friend, that a farther continuance of the duties, beyond the period to which they were now restricted, appeared to him to be unavoidable. But, whether that term would be longer or shorter, and whether it would be advisable that the measure should be one of temporary or permanent policy, it was not in his power to say. Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald did not mean to express any opinion on the subject; but he was anxious that those persons who were interested should bring their case before parliament, when he hoped a just and liberal view would be taken of it. He now begged to put another question to his right hon. friend. When parliament separated at the close of the last session, it was in the recollection of the House, that a bill was about to be submitted to its consideration, for regulating the distilleries of Ireland. In consequence of that measure, which had reference to illicit distilleries, having been abandoned, considerable uncertainty prevailed with respect to the existing law, which affected very sensibly the agriculture, manufactures, and revenue of Ireland. Those who had large distilleries did not like to proceed, as they were ignorant of the measures that might be adopted. Those also who had no concern in distilleries, but who were interested in preserving the peace and morals of the country, by preventing illicit distillation, were anxious to ascertain the exact state of the law as early as possible. Any information on this subject would be most important indeed to the interests involved. Lord Milton said, the subject of the duties imposed on goods imported into Ireland was one of the utmost importance to the manufactures of both countries, and he hoped that, when regulations were adopted, they would be rendered plain and intelligible. As the duties at present stood, the schedule was not sufficiently clear. Some circumstances, he understood, had in consequence taken place in the Custom-house in Ireland, the proceedings connected with which were considered vexatious on this side of the water. Sir H. Parnell wished clearly to understand on what ground a continuance of those duties was to be supported. He begged leave to ask, whether the article of the union by which those duties were imposed had been carefully examined, with a view of fully deciding whether or not the duties could be continued beyond the period of twenty years, without an infringement of that article? At the time the union was under consideration, the question of the duties was argued and discussed; and it was supposed, that when the act of union expired, the duties must expire with it, unless the article by which they were regulated was infringed. He wished to know what the opinion of the crown lawyers was-whether or not those duties could be continued, without violating the compact entered into between the two countries? The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it would be more regular if but one question were asked at a time. As to what the noble lord had said with respect to the regulations between Great Britain and Ireland, he admitted that the subject was one which ought to be fully inquired into; but any change in the system must evidently be a matter of ulterior consideration. With respect to the legal doubt that had been suggested by the hon. baro net, whether the continuance of those | it up by explaining several others. He duties would or would not be an infringe- therefore declined giving any explanation ment of the act of union, he must observe now. It would only give rise to a debate, that he had never heard such a doubt for no useful purpose that he could perstarted before. He had always considered, ceive. The best course was, to render that on the expiration of the twenty years, the bill intelligible, by filling up the blanks every subject connected with the country now, and on Monday he would give all was open to parliamentary_regulation. farther information. The only meaning which he affixed to the Mr. Tierney said, he was only anxious act of union was, that for twenty years a to know, whether the noble lord had alpositive agreement was made not to inter-tered his opinion with respect to the passfere with or alter certain regulations.ing a permanent measure. He could not With respect to the second question put by his right hon. friend on the subject of distillation, he was not prepared to declare what might be done when that subject came under discussion. It certainly involved a question of great importance to the revenue and agriculture of Ireland; but he was not aware that he could at present give his right hon. friend any answer, except by referring him to the measures that were in progress last session. Every means, however, would be taken to obtain information, with a view to the correction of the evil that had been pointed out. see how an answer to such a question could provoke a debate. The noble lord's wrath against the people, which he had so strongly displayed within the last twenty-four hours, afforded but slight grounds for supposing that he had changed his opinion. Lord Castlereagh.-I feel no wrath against the people. I am only doing my duty. Mr. M. A. Taylor said, he conceived yesterday, that after the debate was over, the noble lord meant to state a general outline of the alterations he intended to make; but now he found the explanation would not be given until Monday. He As he nience of himself and other gentlemen, Sir H. Parnell observed, that as the period to which the provisions in the ar-wished, most undoubtedly, for the conveticles of the union extended was on the point of expiring, he trusted that such arrangements would thenceforward be made as might conduce to the convenience of the members for Ireland; that a considerable part of the Irish business would be transacted at home, so that that House might not be troubled with the proceedings of Irish vestries, and that that useless piece of pageantry, the lord-lieutenancy of Ireland, might be got rid of. SEDITIOUS MEETINGS PREVENTION BILL.] Lord Castlereagh moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a committee of the whole House on the Seditious Meetings Prevention Bill. His lordship said, this proceeding was merely pro forma. He would in the committee move, that the blanks be filled up; and on Monday he would state to the House, before going into the debate, what alterations were intended to be made in the bill. Mr. Tierney said, perhaps the noble lord would now state what alterations were contemplated; particularly, whether it was intended that the bill should be temporary or permanent. Lord Castlereagh said, if he gave an explanation on one point, he must follow § Mr. Tierney gave notice, that he would in the committee, on Monday next, propose that the bill should not be permanent, but temporary. Mr. Lambton rose, not for the purpose of discussing the question before them, but because he felt bound to state his opinions to the House and the country, in consequence of a statement made by a noble earl in another place, that there were 14,000 or 15,000 men on the banks of the Weir and the Tyne, ready for rebellion. Without in any way accusing those from whom the noble earl received his information (of whom he had no knowledge), or supposing, for a moment, that the noble earl made the statement in any other than the most temperate manner, yet, residing, as he did, in that neighbourhood, employing many of the inferior classes of the population, as he did, and representing the county of Durham, as he did, he felt himself imperatively called upon to declare, that, from all the observation which he had been enabled personally to make, and from all the information which he had derived from his agents, there did not appear the slightest reason to believe that the assertion was founded in truth. He was bound to state this, as it might otherwise be supposed that his silence implied a concurrence in the accuracy of the noble earl's declaration. He wished also to state, with reference to the assertion cited in the debate of last night, that 700 men, with concealed arms, proceeded from a village three miles from Newcastle, to the meeting near that town on the 11th of October; that he entirely agreed with the hon. member for Northumberland in saying, that, from all the information which he had been able to procure on the subject, not one of the individuals alluded to was armed. Before he left that part of the country, he took all the means in his power to obtain information on the subject of the supposed secret manufacture of arms. It had been stated to him by the foreman of a large iron manufactory, in the neighbourhood, that he considered it impossible that any arms could be secretly manufactured by the workmen there employed; for that the raw material was weighed out to them in the first instance, and the manufactured article weighed when completed. It was impossible, there fore, that they could use any of the iron belonging to their employers; and in his opinion they were too poor to purchase iron. He sincerely believed, therefore, that from the stigma of being engaged in any such atrocious practice as that imputed to them, the population of his neighbourhood was entirely free. God forbid that he should say the noble earl did not implicitly believe the statement which he had made; but he had probably received his information from persons not entitled to credit. It had been suggested to him by some of his hon. friends, that he ought to name the noble earl. It was the earl of Strathmore. Although the inferior classes in his neighbourhood were firmly and enthusiastically attached to the cause of reform, he was persuaded they entertained no hostility towards the constitution and the government. He castle. He was peculiarly anxious to do this, from the general inpression, that many of the persons attending the meeting at Newcastle, on the 11th of October, were inhabitants of Newcastle itself. had been particularly requested by the inhabitants of that town to state, that there was scarcely a single person present at the meeting who was really an inhabitant householder of Newcastle. The meeting was held on the town moor, being the only place thereabouts sufficiently large for the purpose. The great number assembled, owing to the neighbourhood not being accustomed to such assemblages, excited considerable alarm. There were about 30,000 or 40,000 persons. He took it upon him to state, from the information of an individual who was present, and who saw the radicals marching in a body into the town, that they did not exceed 7,000 in number. When they reached the moor, and saw the assembly, and the kind of persons who were likely to take the lead in it, the greater part of them turned off, and went away, dispersing very peaceably. On the best information and inquiry, he was persuaded that there were no persons with arms present. He also wished to state, with reference to the other subject mentioned by the mayor of Newcastle in his letter to lord Sidmouth, namely, the turbulent conduct of the keelmen, that it had no connexion whatever with the disaffection which was supposed to exist in that part of the country. It happened about the period of the meeting that there was an unfortunate disagreement between the keelmen and the shipowners. He had little doubt that the meeting was fixed by the leaders for the 11th of October, in the hope that they would be joined by the unemployed keelmen. It was highly creditable to the keelmen, that those who did attend the meeting were influenced only by curiosity, and took no part in the proceedings. He had that morning received a letter from the secretary of a society, calling itself the society of "Political Protestants" in that neighbourhood, a part of which he thought himself bound in justice to read. It could scarcely be necessary for him to observe, that he believed the principles of such a society were most mischievous, and that he was determined to do all that he Sir M. W. Ridley begged to be allowed could to put such principles down. But to mention a few facts, illustrative of the as the letter to which he had alluded disreal character of the meeting which had avowed any arming on the part of the rebeen held in the neighbourhood of New-formers, he would read a passage from it, which was as follows:-" We challenge | our most inveterate opponents to say that we have in a single instance evinced a spirit of disloyalty. Our meetings have been open, and we have occasionally had the honour of the company of the officers of the police. Our books and papers are to be seen by all who choose to look at them. As to the accusation of our having concealed arms, we are persuaded that his worship, the mayor of Newcastle, has been misinformed on that subject. We are not quite such fools as some persons take us to be. We know that it is the right of every Englishman openly to have arms, and we also know, that to conceal arms is illegal. If, therefore, we wished to have arms, we should buy them openly, and hang them up in our houses. Our object is not revolution, but reform." Of course he could not pledge himself to the truth of one word which he had read, but he had thought that justice to the persons in question required that he should state their own character of themselves. into the objections which he entertained against this bill, he should not trouble the House any farther at present. The bill was then read a first time. HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, December 6. BLASPHEMOUS LIBEL BILL.] Lord Sidmouth rose to move the second reading of the bill for the more effectual prevention and punishment of blasphemous and seditious libels. He observed, that the title of the bill sufficiently expressed its object, and their lordships, he was confident, could not entertain a doubt of the propriety of checking, as far as possible, libels of the description against which the provisions of the bill were directed. The object of the bill was proposed to be accomplished merely by giving to the court the power of increasing the severity of the punishment which was now applied in cases of conviction for libel on a repetition of the offence. It was not proposed Lord Castlereagh observed, that whe- that any additional punishment should atther the 700 men who marched to New-tach in the first instance to a conviction castle from a neighbouring village were armed or not, was immaterial. What had fallen from the hon. baronet was perfectly sufficient to show that there were abundant grounds for apprehension and vigilance. That a meeting of between 30,000 and 40,000 persons had assembled, of whom 7,000 formed a regularly organized body, was a fact on which comment would be superfluous. The House then resolved itself into the committee. The blanks in the bill were filled up; and the House resumed. NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL.] Lord Castlereagh brought in a bill "to make certain publications subject to the Duties of Stamps upon Newspapers; and to restrain the Abuses arising from the publication of blasphemous and Seditious Libels." On the motion, that it be read a first time, Mr. Brougham rose to object to this bill even in its first stage. He conceived that all the bills lately introduced into the House tended to abridge the liberty of the subject. The present bill, however, went to abridge the liberty of the press, which he conceived to be the great pillar of the constitution; he, therefore, could not let it pass without entering his protest against it. As other opportunities would occur, when he could enter (VOL. XLI.) for libel, but that a defendant should, on conviction for a second libel, be liable, according to the judgment of the court, to the punishment of banishment or transportation. Having, on a former occasion, fully stated the nature of this bill, and the other measures connected with it, he should not trouble their lordships with any farther details at present; but should be ready in the course of the debate, to give any explanation which might appear necessary. He would only say, that whatever measures their lordships in their wisdom might think fit to adopt in the present situation of the country, they would all prove ineffectual unless means were found to check the licentiousness of the press. That licentiousness was the great source of the evil with which they had to contend, and if, after adopting the other measures, they did not agree to this, the remedy would be incomplete. The objects of the other measures, important as they were, could not be attained without this; for if it were not adopted, their lordships would still have in all its strength, that destructive virus, the pernicious effects of which, if allowed to operate, were certain and irremediable. He concluded by moving, that the bill be now read a second time. Lord Erskine said, that public necessity, from the state of the country, had been assumed as the justification of this bill as it (2Z) |