did not expect to stand on the same footing as the hon. and learned gentleman. He would now offer some remarks upon the proposed amendment. The clause would prevent the attendance of strangers. It was therefore necessary, in justice to those who legally attended, to make it a misdemeanor in others to attend. Such a clause would ensure the legality of the meeting, and prevent persons from incurring the harsher penalty of felony. Mr. Brougham explained. He had been led to make the remarks he had made, not merely by the cheers, but by the attitude of contempt with which his hon. and learned friend had received the first mention of reporters [Cries of No, no! from the back seats of the ministerial side.] The hon. gentlemen behind might easily say no, no; but they could not possibly have seen his reason for misunderstanding his hon. and learned friend. He admitted that he had misunderstood him. He thought that he had even heard his hon. and learned friend contemptuously repeat the word "reporters." At least, this was not the first time in which notice had been taken by members, not only of words spoken, but of cheers and ges tures. The Attorney General said, it was for the committee to form their opinion, whether auy cheers or gestures on his part had deserved the remarks made by the hon. and learned gentleman. He had no recollection that he had cheered at all. He had been remarking upon the arguments used, to his learned friend who sat next him. The Solicitor General said, that his hon. and learned friend had remarked to him, that the clause would have the effect of excluding reporters, but had not cheered. The hon. and learned gentleman ought to have been satisfied, and throroughly satisfied, before he had replied in the style he had done. tion of the magistrates to suffer strangers to remain to the conclusion of the meeting? Strangers might be present, properly and meritoriously, as at meetings when the distinguished candidate at Liverpool delivered speeches, and might listen for the purpose of improving their minds. The amendment would have been so much for the interest of the other side, that he had hoped the clause would have been withdrawn, but for the personal altercation which had taken place. Lord Castlereagh said, there had been nothing in the gesture or manner of his hon. and learned friend to justify the remarks that had been made. If any thing had occasioned those remarks, it had been on his lordship's part, not from disrespect for the persons alluded to, for whom he felt no disrespect, but because he had said that the amendment, if introduced for the purpose of admitting reporters, would alter the whole frame of the bill. The noble lord then defended the clause against the objections urged by the opposite side. Mr. Stuart Wortley said, that in his opinion there was a great deal in what had fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman on the other side, of the importance of admitting reporters. He thought it of very great importance that we should know what was done at public meetings. Publicity had been of the greatest service during the late meetings; it had opened the eyes of the country to the views of those who agitated it. But he was aware of the difficulty of admitting the amendment, because a great number of persons might attend in the first instance, and occasion much inconvenience and mischief, if the clause were withdrawn. He, therefore, did hope that provision might, in some other way, be made for those whose object was reporting. Mr. Maxwell agreed in the importance of giving publicity to the proceedings of public meetings. He opposed the Mr. Denman lamented the interrup- amendment, because persons had come tion which had arisen from this alterca- from Manchester and Leeds to tell those tion; and regretted the warmth into which who conducted meetings in his part of the attorney-general had suffered himself the country, what they should say, and to be led. He regretted the tone of the how they should act. The radicals had - attorney-general, produced by the alter- also availed themselves of the attendance cation to which he had alluded, because of persons from mere curiosity, and had he thought he had opposed the amend-represented them as friends of annual parment in consequence, with greater vehemence. His objection to the clause was, that it kept alive quarrels at meetings. Why should it not be left to the discre liaments and universal suffrage. He was decidedly against the radicals, though a sincere reformer, and representing a part of the country abounding with sincere re formers; yet he thought that free discussion ought to be permitted to the radical reformers, and he considered it of great importance that reporters should be present at their meetings, and at all other meetings. Mr. R. Martin thought it prudent to prevent reporters from attending meetings. It would be dangerous to let publicity be given to the seditious nonsense of parish parliaments. Mr. S. Wortley said, that if the object, which he thought a great one, should be adopted, it ought to be introduced in a clause by itself. Lord Castlereagh said, that if at all introduced, it should be in a specific clause; but he thought it a very serious question whether reporters ought to be allowed to attend. The amendment was negatived. Mr. W. Smith said, he conceived it was highly improper to proceed further at so late an hour (past one) and moved that the committee should report progress. Lord Castlereagh observed, it was not an hour usually considered inconvenient for business. Mr. W. Smith said, he felt it a public duty to prevent matters of such consequence to the public from being proceeded in at that hour, and he should take the sense of the House on the question. The committee then divided: For the adjournment, 34; Against it, 166: Majority, 132. Mr. Brougham trusted it was not in tended to go into any of those clauses which were likely to produce discussion. The result of the division, he presumed, would only be to agree to those parts of the bill on which no controversy was expected to arise. This, indeed, he took to be the understanding of many who had voted with the majority; and he must be permitted to add, that it was in this view only that he and his friends could consent to give the committee no further trouble. Lord Castlereagh knew that there were certain means by which a minority might protract the passing a measure, and retard the course of business in that House. But it was a great error to suppose that those on his side had understood, that, after such a division, any hon. members would think it consistent with their public duty to put in force this power of renewing motions for adjournment. In his conscience he believed that the public safety was deeply involved in the immediate progress of this measure. The hon. and (VOL. XLI.) learned gentleman, who was thus induced to oppose it in every way, had, a few nights since, risen at a much later period, and had spoken two hours, not certainly confining himself with much strictness in any part of that lengthened address to the question. before the House. Yet now, such was the feebleness of that circle of friends by whom he was surrounded, that he appeared determined to throw every obstruction in the way of a bill that went to provide a remedy for as great an evil as any with which this country had ever been threatened. At all events, he felt satisfied that the House and the country at large would think that he had only done his duty in bringing the question to an issue with the hon. gentlemen on the other side. Mr. Brougham remarked, that he had been represented as having troubled the House on a late occasion for two hours, upon a subject still more general and various than the present. He begged leave to say, that he had then addressed the House, and at that length with great and unfeigned reluctance. The reason was not, that he was reluctant to discharge a public duty. a public duty. The pain he felt arose from perceiving that he addressed himself to so many members who seemed determined to hear nothing that differed from those views which they had already taken. He grieved to say, that he had then found himself in a House of Commons ready to pass the most severe measures against their constituents, and which would hear nothing in their defence-a house, that while it was dwelling upon the tumult and confusion of other popular assemblies, and regarding all other popular assemblies as a rabble rout incapable of any deliberation, was itself an audience which had given him a reception not often experienced at the most stormy meetings. He must confess he had felt ashamed. The reason for the length at which he had troubled them on the occasion alluded to, was the speech of the noble lord's right hon. friend (Mr. Canning), whose speech had occupied three hours in its delivery. No doubt, it would have been very convenient to the noble lord, that that speech should have been left unanswered. This, however, had not squared with his own notions of public duty. His impression was, upon the present subject, that the numerous clauses of this most important bill could not be properly discused or investigated at that hour. On its future stages, he could assure the (SI) words halt-march-stand at ease, &c. noble load, that he and his hon. friends would not refuse their assistance in ren-repeated several times. Two of the party dering the bill more effectual for its pur- advanced towards him, and asked his buposes; as in its present shape it was not siness; he answered-" What the d-l adapted to the ends professed to be had are you about?" The men returned to in view. And he implored the House, if the party, and he fearing danger, rode immediate alarm had not utterly indis- away. Since this he (Mr. Wortley) had posed them to all candour and deliberation, been informed that the drilling was openly not to press forward such an alteration carried on, not only at Barnsley, but at of the ancient law as this bill was about Barton and the neighbouring towns, in to introduce. defiance of the law. He hoped the House would see the danger which existed, and the necessity of preventing it from gaining ground, by speedily passing this bill into a law. The motion for reporting progress was then renewed, and carried unanimously. The House then resumed; and the chairman reported progress. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wednesday, December 8. TRAINING PREVENTION BILL.] Lord Castlereagh having moved that this bill be read a first time, Mr. Stuart Wortley said, that some circumstances had recently come to his knowledge which made him think it necessary that this bill should go through all its stages in as short a time as possible. Up to this time it had been said that training existed only in Lancaster. He had now documents in his hands which show ed that it extended to Yorkshire, and was spreading to an alarming degree. He had been informed that a number of persons had been seen drilling in the neighbourhood of Barnsley last Friday night. He immediately wrote, desiring his informant to lay his depositions before sir Wood. He held sir Wood's letter in his hand. It stated that the training at Barnsley was notorious. He had also a second letter, containing the examination of persons whom it would be imprudent then to name, who had witnessed trainings of upwards of 200 men near Barnsley, on the nights of Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. The men had poles about eight feet long, which they exercised as muskets. On Monday night deponent was within 150 yards of these men, and it being light, he could see on the tops of the poles something shining like bayonets, and which he believed to be pike-heads. This morning he had received a letter from a gentleman named Forbes, a man whose politics were rather opposed to his own. That gentleman had witnessed a body of from 70 to 100 training on the night of Tuesday the 30th ult. They had poles about 8 feet long in their hands; and he distinctly heard the Mr. Tierney said, that no one could be more anxious than he was to put down any of those practices against which this bill was directed. But at the same time he was desirous of proceeding with due caution, and in such a manner as not to establish a precedent for mischievous measures hereafter. The House would see that they were now called on to proceed without to proceed without observing their usual forms, not on any communication made by his majesty's government, but on a communication made by a private individual, however high the character of that individual might be, and whatever credit might be due to what had the sanction of his authority. It was singular enough that these communications, instead of being made by lord Sidmouth, or even by the lord lieutenant of the county in which the training was said to take place, who was a member of that House, should be made by one of the members for that county. With respect to the practice of training, if this practice was not already liable to animadversion, he was willing to make it so. He had thought that by the existing laws, this practice could be stopt; but he now understood this was not the case. If the practice was not now punishable, it ought with all convenient dispatch to be made so. No friend of liberty could wish a practice of this sort to go on unchecked. But, then, see how the House was placed. There was nothing on their journals as a warrant for their proceeding, which was merely founded on the communication of an individual member of the House. When the House at once passed the bill suspending the Habeas Corpus act, they proceeded on a message from the throne, and a communication from his majesty's ministers, and it was proper to pass the measure, if at all, without delay, because otherwise the par ties against whom the measure was directed, having notice of it might make their escape. But here there would only be two or three days more drilling at most, and if the numbers drilled, instead of 2 or 300 were 2 or 3,000, he did not think that would make much difference. He was on this occasion as sincerely desirous as the noble lord opposite could be of coming forward fairly to put down the practice of training, but he could not help thinking they would be laying the foundation for a dangerous precedent, if they were to pass this bill summarily, without evidence. Lord Castlereagh observed, that the Crown had already made a communication to the House with respect to the existence of the practice of training, and, therefore, in passing the bill in the manner proposed, they would not be proceeding on the information of any individual member. But if they were to pass the bill two stages to-night, and to go into a committee to-morrow, perhaps this would be satisfactory to all sides. Mr. Curwen said, that much as he lamented the existence of the practice of training, he could not entertain the smallest doubt, that this practice had taken place in the neighbourhood of Carlisle, as he had received the information from various re spectable persons who had seen the par ties. He owned that at one time he was in considerable doubt as to the fact of trainings taking place; but now he had not the least doubt. The inhabitants of the neighbourhood were most anxious that a stop should be put to this practice without delay. Mr. Stuart Wortley said, that his noble friend, the lord lieutenant of the West Riding of Yorkshire (lord Lascelles), had felt it his duty to leave town last night for Yorkshire, after the adjournment of the House. He was the more anxious this bill should pass without delay, as a meeting was advertised to be held at Barnsley on Monday next, and it was held out by those people who proposed to attend the meeting, that they were to go armed-a circumstance which had caused no small alarm in that neighbourhood. Lord Lowther expressed his conviction, that training in a regular manner, had been practised to a great extent in the northern counties. The Lord Advocate bore his testimony to the existence of similar practices in Scotland. Sir James Graham said, that the inhabitants of Carlisle were under very great alarm, lest they should be attacked. At the same time he must say, the inhabitants in general were well-disposed, and the number of the disaffected very small. He did not believe the number of those who were badly disposed exceeded 4 or 500; but still these persons had arms in their hands, and were able to destroy the whole place. The cutting down of plantations had taken place to a great ex. tent, for the purpose of obtaining staves to their pikes. The magistrates discovered that pikes had been made by blacksmiths to a very great extent. One of those who communicated the circumstance to the magistrates had received an order to make twelve dozen of pikes; but the other blacksmiths who had received orders did not choose to make any communication. Every inhabitant of Carlisle looked up to his majesty's ministers for protection, and if they did not receive that protection from ministers, they would look up to the opposition for it [laugh]; for they must have protection. Mr. Brougham said, he was rather surprised that any magistrates should entertain a shadow of doubt as to their power of preventing these nightly drills. If seventy or eighty men, even if they were armed only with clubs, but certainly if they were armed with pikes, met at midnight, or under the cloud of night, for the purpose of training, there was only a shadow of difference between this crime and the highest crime known in law, that of levying war against the state. Surely those who thought the meeting at Manchester illegal, ought to think a meeting by night of persons, armed with pikes, illegal. Those who saw these practices ought to have given warning to the magistrates, who should have called out the yeomanry, and if the yeomanry were insufficient, the military also, to put down these trainings, and endeavour to secure_some of the persons engaged in them. It was now between two and three months since he was in Carlisle, and he then heard the same account which was now given. Good God! where were the magistrates all the while? As to their saying they looked to his majesty's ministers for protection, and then to the opposition-he would merely observe, why did they not look to their own magistrates? He had no manner of doubt that the practice of training was illegal, and a new law was only advisable to adopt penalties more specific than those of the common law of the land. The measure would also have the effect of a parliamentary denunciation against those mischievous persons who dared to commit such an offence. The Attorney General said, that several individuals had been committed for trial, at the last sessions, for the offence of training, but they had traversed. It was undoubtedly true, that if it were possible to establish the purpose for which men met armed by night, that amounted to high treason; but the hon. and learned gentleman must know, that there was a great difficulty in getting at that proof; and then they could only be indicted for the lowest offence in law-misdemeanor. But, in consequence of the traversing, there had been as yet no conviction, and consequently no example had been made. He needed only to state also, what was seen from the papers before them, the difficulty of getting evidence as to such training, the persons who had gone to see them having been attacked and maltreated. He trusted that the alarm now felt would induce individuals, at all hazards, to put down this practice, and that they would not suffer themselves to be intimidated by threats from doing so. After this act, he had hopes that the specific punishment would have the effect of preventing the repetition of this act. It had been said, if the Manchester meeting was illegal, surely there could be no doubt these nightly meetings were illegal; but the Manchester meeting had been held up to the country as a legal meeting, and thereby considerable difficulty had been thrown in the way of magistrates. Lord Stanley was surprised at the incredulity which the hon. member for Carlisle intimated, that he had till recently entertained with regard to the existence of these practices. All he could say was, that in the county of Lancashire they had been going on for a long period, and it was matter of general astonishment that legal proceedings had not been before instituted. Several persons had indeed been apprehended, but no prosecution had followed, and they were dismissed on promises of good behaviour. This was done, he believed, from doubt as to the illegality of the offence charged. He agreed with Mr. Brougham, that it was an offence at common law; but if it were not, it evidently ought to be made one; for it created not only alarm, but real danger. At the same time he did not wish to see it adopted without some time for consideration. Mr. Curwen said, his original doubt existed, because he had not at that time met with any person who had actually seen this drilling and training practised. Whatever might be the case in Lancashire, he was firmly persuaded that the far greater part of the people in Cumberland were loyal and well disposed. He never would believe until the fact was proved to him, that any men could be desirous of overthrowing a constitution under which they enjoyed so many blessings. Mr. S. Wortley was quite satisfied with the mode proposed by his noble friend, which would mark, in some way, the feeling of the House. He had no hesitation, on the part of the magistrates of Yorkshire, in saying that they considered themselves perfectly warranted in proceeding against the persons who met for training: the only difficulty was in obtaining proof against individuals-but he believed such proof was now obtained, and he expected some of them were in custody. Mr. J. P. Grant concurred in all that had been said, as to the immediate necessity of putting down practices which were as illegal as they were dangerous. He wished, however, to learn whether they were not understood to be confined to very small districts in Scotland. The Lord Advocate replied, chiefly to the neighbourhood of Glasgow. Sir C. Burrell thought that the information communicated by magistrates should always be treated with respect. It was too much the custom, on one side of the House, to represent such information as coming from government spies. Lord Folkestone gave his assent to the object of this measure, which he should have thought useless if the magistrates had done their duty. Mr. Calcraft agreed that training was an offence which ought to be put down. The House by showing an unanimous opinion to that effect, would, he was satisfied, recover many from delusion, and secure the punishment of irreclaimable offenders. The bill was then read a first and second time. NAVAL EXPENDITURE.] Mr. Hume called the attention of the House to the |