PARLIA

THE

Parliamentary Debates

During the Fifth Session of the Fifth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-eighth Day of January 1817, in the Fifty-seventh Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Third.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, April 28.

CIVIL AND MILITARY OFFICES CONTINUANCE BILL.] Mr. Ponsonby having moved the second reading of this bill,

that he had interfered in this business. | penal laws, by which they were so severeHe was too little acquainted with the case ly affected. It stated that they had taken to give any opinion upon it even in a pri- every oath of fidelity and allegiance. vate room, far less to give any opinion They referred to the acts of the Irish legisupon it in their lordships House. He did lature for repeated proofs of loyalty; notnot know who the magistrates were, ex- withstanding which they remained subject cept by name. But the true question was, to the severe disabilities enforced against what was the meaning of the act? Their them, in consequence of their conscienlordships might examine that act, and see tious adherence to the religious doctrines whether there was any clause which could of their forefathers. They disclaimed all by possibility bear such a construction as latent, all sinister motives whatever; and that which, according to the noble earl's maintained, that any imputation of that nastatement, had been put upon it. ture was repelled by their numbers and character. Their object was direct and avowed; -it was to obtain an equal participation in the civil rights enjoyed by their fellow subjects. The prayer of the petition was, that their case might receive the favourable consideration of the House of Commons. He would not trespass further on the House, were it not that the petition contained another clause of great importance to the discussion which was soon to take place on the subject. By that clause an opening was given for the satisfactory adjustment of that long disputed point relative to ecclesiastical security. The House would agree with him, that the claims set up on the one side to security, and the denial of those claimson the other, had occasioned the frequent failure of the cause of the catholics in parliament. Those claims had been founded on the apprehension of foreign interference in the nomination of the Irish bishops. When plans were suggested for affording a security against this danger, the catholic bishops, in 1808, published a resolution, declaring that, in their opinion, it would be inexpedient to alter the existing mode of nomination; and the laity soon followed their example. But now a complete change had taken place in their sentiments-a change so great, that all must admit that the ap proaching discussion would take place un. der circumstances altogether different from any that had hitherto occurred. The Irish bishops no longer adhered to their resolution. On the contrary, they proposed an arrangement which was calcu lated to meet all the dangers apprehended by those who had hitherto opposed the catholic claims. The clause to which he had just adverted, and which he begged leave to read, contained this proposition, with a distinct avowal of the acquiescence of the great catholic body in the opinion of the catholic prelates. They stat ed in the clause, that in thus addressing the legislature, they were naturally

Lord Castlereagh said, that if the measure were one of a larger extent-if it went to alter the general principle, that all the servants of the Crown should hold their offices from the grant of the monarch immediately on the throne, it would be a proposition new in its nature, and one which would require considerable deliberation. The bill, however, merely went in the event of the demise of the Crown, and the accession of the illustrious personage who now held the office of Regent, to continue all the present offices, a great proportion of which had been granted under the regency, and thus to prevent considerable inconvenience and delay. He had no objection whatever to the bill applying as it did to a special case, and leaving untouched the general principle. He only hoped, that the right hon. gentleman would allow an interval of eight or ten days between the second reading and the committee merely to give an opportunity for the bill to be looked into with reference to its particular wording.

Mr. Ponsonby was happy that the noble lord regarded the measure in the same light in which it was introduced, and agreed that much convenience might, whilst no ill consequences could, arise from it.

The bill was then read a second time.

PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.] Sir H. Parnell rose for the purpose of presenting to the House the Petition from the Roman Catholics of Ireland. It intreated, he said, the favour able attention of the House to their peculiar condition under the pressure of the

pline of the catholic church, and would tend to the final extirpation of the catholic religion. He was enabled further to say, that should the general outline of this plan of domestic nomination be approved of, but should it be thought that it might be rendered more efficient by additional regulations, the catholics would have no objection to accede to any propositions which might be thought necessary to the security of the Protestant institutions, and which would not endanger their own. He would now move for leave to bring up the petition.

desirous of conciliating favour, and obviat- I would possess themselves of every necesing the objections which had heretofore sary information respecting it, that they been made to a compliance with their might be duly prepared to come to a wise wishes; and that they entertained a con- decision on the motion that was soon to be scientious conviction that all the impor- submitted to them by his right hon, friend tant differences existing on the subject He wished to say a word or two on that might be happily reconciled, by the adop- which might to some appear an inconsistion of the domestic nomination of the tency on the part of the catholics-the catholic bishops, in which the catho- continuance of their objection to the Veto. lic bishops were ready to concur, and The present was not the time for going which would meet with the most cordial into a detailed explanation on this subject. approbation of the catholics at large. But the catholics objected to the Veto on He trusted that this declaration would be conscientious principles; conceiving that considered by the House not more impor- to accede to it would be, in effect, to give tant in its substance than in the temperate to the Crown the nomination of the bi and proper language in which it was ex-shops; which was contrary to the discipressed. It was necessary for him to explain, in some degree, the plan that it was intended to propose. He was able to do so on the authority of a prelate of the catholic church; who stated, that the chief objection which had been long urged in the discussions in parliament respecting the appointment of the catholic bishops, was, that although on a vacancy the Irish prelates recommended an individual to the pope, the pope was not obliged to attend to their recommendation, but might instal any other person, even a foreigner. In order to obviate that objection, the Irish prelates offered to procure from the pope a concordat, that he would not institute any other person as a prelate than the one recommended to him by them, his majesty's liege and sworn subjects. The catholic prelates and the catholics at large offered to bind themselves by oath to choose no one for recommendation to the pope, but a native of the empire, and one whom they conscientiously believed to be loyal in principle. They further proposed, that all the catholic bishops and clergy should swear not to disturb, or attempt to overturn, by fraud or by force, the civil and religious institutions of the empire, or to interfere with the existing settlement of property. They had been assured by eminent persons in the confidence of the pope, that he would not object to sanction these offers, if they were likely to give satisfaction to the legialature, and to secure the desired relief to the catholic body. Here, therefore, was a proposition directly meeting the objection urged, of danger arising, from the foreign influence of the pope, by rendering future nominations in every respect domestic. He had felt it his duty to state thus much, in the hope that hon. members would take the subject into their most serious consideration, and

General Matthew congratulated the House and the body of the Catholics, that this long contested question was likely to be met, both on the part of the catholic body, and the members of his majesty's government, with that spirit of conciliation, which he hoped was a favourable omen of the success of the question. He was, as well as the catholics themselves, aware of the fair, candid, and honourable manner in which the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh), had expressed himself both in that House and elsewhere, on the subject of the catholic cause, as well as two more worthy individuals, his colleagues in office. Surely it was not too much then to expect, that the cause at last would be triumphant. For eleven years he had anxiously watched the progress of the catholic claims, a cause in which he was doubly interested, first as as an Irishman, and secondly as a Briton. They had succeeded each year in removing one source or other of objection to their character or their claims. They asked not now emancipation, they merely demanded a fair and dispassionate examination of their claims in a committee. The catholic he was happy to find, was disposed to lay aside all party spirit, and anxious to leave no stone

authority, that the pope, that cardinals Gonsalvi, Litta, and others were ready to give every assistance in the good work of concession, if we would only here set them the example. If any objectionable points, in the intercourse of the catholics at Rome with the holy see, were pointed out, all parties were ready at once to redress them. His feelings were warm on this subject, because he felt it to be the cause of his injured countrymen, the Roman catholics of Ireland.

unturned to effect a spirit of conciliation | could at once be adjusted. He stated from on the part of the Crown, and the warm supporters of the constitution in church and state. He hoped none would be presumptuous enough to disturb this harmony by throwing a firebrand into their debates that no Patrick Duigenan would be found to tell of the bloody days of king Henry, the bloody queen Mary, the confiscations and persecutions in the time of the commonwealth-that all this trash and inflammable matter, these tales of gossips to frighten children out of their wits, would no longer disgrace their debates, or irritate those whom they ought to be solicitous to soothe. He could not but most fervently hope, that ministers would weigh well the responsibility of their situation, with reference to this question. The eyes of six millions of suffering countrymen, who, to the disgrace of the age in which they lived, were in a state of political degradation, were fixed upon his majesty's government in this crisis. It was time for ministers to tell the people and the country, before the question was decided, the nature and extent of the securities which they would affix to their support of emancipation. This they could only do in a committee. The catholics of Ireland deputed to London two distinguished characters, competent to give every information on the subject of the affairs of the catholic clergy, and the particulars of their connexion with the see of Rome. The characters to whom he alluded were Drs. Murray and Everard, the one titular archbishop of Cashel, and the other of Dublin. They were ready to give every information which any member could require on the subject. On the subject of securities, as they were called, all he would say was, that the general question was universally conceded, if proper securities were provided, for the permanence of the protestant establisment. He had authority to say, that the catholic bishops whom he named, were ready to give that security; they were ready, so far as domestic nomination went, to give every satisfaction on that head; and there could no longer be any excuse for putting so many millions of loyal and peaceable subjects out of the pale of the constitution. He was glad to see the noble lord (Castlereagh) in his place, for, he was sure, he should have his concurrence in stating, that the old bug-bear of foreign interference was completely at an end. If they would only enter into the committee, every thing

Mr. Webber said, that no man was more anxiously disposed than himself to concede every civic right and privilege under the constitution, to the Roman catholics, whenever that concession could be made with safety to the state. He had all his lifetime been in the closest and most cordial habits of intimacy with a great many persons of that community, and he could bear testimony to their public and private worth. But in looking at the great question of Catholic Emancipation, he must abstract it from the narrow consideration of personal character. He would admit, with the most sanguine advocates of the catholics, their loyalty and peaceable demeanour in all ranks of society; but his objections were not founded on the personal characters of the men-they went to the whole system itself. He would now only say, that if it was ever his fate to hear this question discussed in the British parliament, he would previously expect to have the question of securities fully considered and decided. If the general debate were entertained at all, it ought certainly be subsequent to the decision on that point. He had no hesitation to say, as the painful result of his conviction, that the concessions claimed by the Roman catholics would, if granted, effect nothing short of an incipient revolution in the protestant church of Ireland. Such being his painful conviction, he was bound to mention it. The hon. baronet had thought proper to refer to the question of securities, and the manner in which they originated. begged to state the mode in which he understood that matter had been started. Here the hon. gentleman stated the origin of securities in the year 1799, and traced the temper in which they had been urged. He concluded by saying, that the catholics of Ireland had a right to concede that which was uniformly granted in every other country in Europe.

He

Mr. Blake rose, not only on the part of t