THE Parliamentary Debates During the Second Session of the Fifth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Fourth Day of November 1813, in the Fifty-fourth Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Third. [Sess. 1813/14. HOUSE OF LORDS. CORN EXPORTATION BILL.] The Earl of Hardwicke rose to move the second reading of the Corn Exportation Bill. The object of the Bill, he said, was to allow the free exportation of corn and meal without bounty. Although in the present state of the price of corn in this country the Bill would have very little effect, its effect on Ireland would be great and immediate; for by carrying off the surplus produce, and thus keeping the market from depression, it would afford a material protection to the agriculturist. He was not aware that this measure could be objected to, either by those who approved of, or by those who objected to the restraints on importation, except on account of the abolition of the bounty on exportation. As to this bounty, which was 5s. per bushel on the exportation of wheat when at forty-eight shillings the quarter or under, it could not be supposed that it would at any period not very remote, have a practical effect as an encouragement to the farmer. They should not therefore, refuse an immediate benefit, because it is coupled with a supposed evil so remote. His lordship then concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill, after observing that another House had recently appointed a committee for the full investigation of the subject of the corn laws, and that he thought their lordships would not misemploy their time in appointing a committee for the same purpose. Lord Grenville said he was far from ob(VOL. XXVIII.) jecting to the Bill before the House, or wishing to prevent the farmer, or any other body of men, from deriving the advantages which their capital and their industry might give them, by any restraint on the freedom of commerce; but he wished to be understood, that his consent was not given to this measure as forming any part of, or as being connected with the other measure relative to the same branch of trade, which had for some time been agitated in another place. It was not regular to debate that measure which had been debated in another place, and which happily had been postponed, at least for the present session, and which he thought-whether rightly or not-would if passed, be most detrimental to the manufacturing interest, but above all, most detrimental to the landed interest of this kingdom. But he had taken the first opportunity of declaring his opinion that it was impossible that the measure could be a fit one for the adoption of parliament during the present session; at least, if not for other reasons, for this most conclusive one-because the foundation and substance of the measure was a scale of duties varying according to the price of the article, while the circumstances of the country were such, that although it was not explained in the Bill whether the price referred to was that paid in gold or paper, the price in one of these currencies might be 80s. in the other 60s. If their lordships did not first apply a remedy to this most preponderant of all the evils which oppressed the country, it was impossible to fix any scale for the duties payable on imported corn. (B) He was, corn trade; but it would be a better course in the supporters of the principle gradually to abolish the violations of it than to extend them. His lordship then remarked, that the system of bounties which the Bill went to abolish, was a system for enabling the poor of other countries to eat their bread cheap at the expence of taxes levied on the people of this country, and concluded by saying, that the Bill before their lordships met with his most hearty concurrence, and that the other Bill, which he hoped would not come before the House this session, should, if it were brought before them, meet with his most decided opposition. The Earl of Lauderdale did not mean to oppose the Bill, but he could not help making a few observations after what had fallen from his noble friend near him. He agreed in what his noble friend had said on the state of the circulation, and he hoped, that his noble friend would on some early day move for a committee to consider the subject, in order to enable them to form some permanent regulation as to the corn laws. He agreed, that in the present state of the circulation, no permanent regulation could be adopted; but he was convinced, that even in the present state of things, a regulation from year to moreover, convinced that it was not for the interest of any class of men, and most injurious to the interest of the country, to oppose any obstacle to the free importation of the chief article of the subsistence of its population. It was needless for him to say, that in thus freely delivering his opinion, he was not courting vulgar prejudice; or that because he differed from men, who well knew how much he esteemed them, on a question which had divided the most able practical statesmen, he had any wish of imputing to them an intention to support one class to the injury of others. He disclaimed any such intention for himself; he disclaimed any such imputation on others. Though such intention was far from the proposers of the measure, he thought its effect would be equally injurious; its present effect was to raise the price of corn; he did not believe its effect would be to render it lower in future, or more steady at any time. If the present evil was necessary, with a view to permanent future good, the House should look it steadily in the face; but to raise the price of corn was a measure which, of all others, their lordships would adopt most reluctantly, and never but after a most full enquiry, attended by an absolute certainty that such benefit would be pro-year might be adopted. He also hoped duced in future as to out-balance the present evil. That the price would be at present raised appeared most clearly; for as price was regulated by the proportion of the demand to the supply, how could the price fail to be raised, if, while the demand remained the same, a great source of the supply was stopped? With such a certain evil before him, he distrusted a speculation which depended for the benefits of a measure on future years or centuries; and he the more distrusted it, because it was in opposition to known facts, and those generally acknowledged principles of commercial freedom, a contradiction of which should always be supported by a great weight of proof.-It was argued, that because there were many departures (he lamented there were so many) in our laws from the principles of commercial freedom, by the restrictions on foreign and the bounties on domestic manufactures, which he doubted not had been injurious to the commercial prosperity of the country by turning capital and industry into the channels least advantageous to the country, that the violation of this principle should be extended to the that the noble earl who spoke first would move for a committee to consider the subject of the corn laws, that they might not be under the necessity of resting on the sort of evidence which was often sent up to them from the other House. He agreed with his noble friend in the general principle, that commerce ought to be free. This was a principle which might be safely and properly acted on with respect to corn and most other things, if the nation was not so loaded with taxes as it was now. But it was a totally distinct question what system was most proper for a people so taxed as the people of this country were; and in the present state of things his opi nion was, that it would be impossible to permit a free importation without giving the foreign importer a decided advantage over the corn grower in this country. He agreed that price was regulated by the extent of the supply as compared with the demand: but his noble friend would concur with him when he said that there were two ways of diminishing price: one way by diminishing the demand, the other by increasing the supply. Why then, when encouragement was given to the corn growers of the country, the supply was raised and the price diminished; and the difference was merely this, that people would, with the restraint on importation, be supplied with corn raised in this country, while, in the other case, they would be supplied with corn from abroad. His lordship denied that the effect of the measure which had been proposed in another place would be to raise the price of corn. This system had been acted upon from the beginning of the reign of king William down to the year 1767; and so far was it from raising the price, that before 1797, the price of corn was 21. 6s. 3d.; between that time and 1760, for a period of 30 years, the price was so low as 17. 16s.; and such was the conviction at the time that corn would have fallen much lower, that the ministers of the church of Scotland (no bad judges of their own interests,) petitioned, between 1740 and 1750, to receive their augmentations in money instead of corn, as corn was likely to be much reduced in price. It was a general aspersion on landed proprietors, that the rise in the price of corn arose from the increase of rents; but this was quite unfounded, as the rents often continued to be paid at the same rate in money, while corn rose in value. In Scotland, where rents were supposed to be high, the highest rent paid for a farm was 87. for the Scotch acre, which was one-fifth more than the English acre. This rent had been found, considering the reduced value of money, to be not so much as that paid between 1740 and 1750. The fact was, that at present, on account of the immense weight of the taxes, there was a duty on the exportation of British corn. Although the manufacturers were so clamorous against the Bill to lay duties on imported corn, yet if the restrictions on all commodities were removed, they would load the House with many more pets against commercial freedom, than they now presented against a politic departure from that principle. To support the assertion which he had made on a former night, that manufacturing labour was cheap in proportion to the dearth of provisions, his lordship adduced the evidence taken on the subject of the Orders in Council, in which it was universally stated that manufactures had not suffered, even when corn was at 61. Ss. the quarter. The labour, he observed, then became cheaper, because the manufacturers, instead of working 10 hours, were obliged, in order to provide for their families, to work 12 hours. The Earl of Liverpool was desirous of saying a few words upon the Bill before the House: upon that which had been in fact postponed in another place till next session, he did not think it necessary to make any observations: In the principle of the Bill now before the House, that of free exportation of grain, he was entirely agreed, considering that principle as a return to that sound system of legislation which ought never to be departed from, except upon some special ground, demanding particular regulations. This opinion was wholly independent of the consideration of any other measure, with a view to the regulation of the importation. of grain; but supposing importation to be allowed, it would be the height of injustice not to permit the exportation of the grain thus imported. A free exportation of grain might not, perhaps, produce any material practical benefit to one part of the United Kingdom, but on Ireland it was well known it would confer a most essential advantage. The Bill therefore, upon the ground he had mentioned, without reference to any other measure, should have his support. After a few words from earl Stanhope, and from lord Grenville and the earl of Lauderdale, in explanation, the Bill was read a second time, and committed for Friday. The earl of Hardwicke gave notice for Friday of his intention to move for a Committee on the Corn Laws. HOUSE OF COMMONS. GALWAY ELECTORS' BILL.] On the order of the day for the second reading of the Bill for removing doubts as to the provisions of an Act made in Ireland, in the 33d year of the reign of his present Ma"An jesty king George the 3d, intituled, Act for the relief of his Majesty's Popish or Roman Catholic subjects of Ireland," in relation to the town of Galway, Mr. Blake proposed to withdraw the order for the second reading of the Bill, with a view to fix the motion for tomorrow. Mr. Daly opposed the proposition, stating, that he should rather move the postponement of the second reading of the Bill to this day six months. Mr. Blake then moved, that the Bill be now read a second time; and argued in favour of the measure, by referring to the grievance to which not only the Catholics but the Protestants of Galway were subject in consequence of the extraordinary privileges vested in the corporation of that town. Through these privileges the warden and corporation, who were appointed by external influence, granted the right of voting to a body of peasantry, subject to that influence, and this body, consisting of several hundred, were march ed into Galway, conscript like, at each election, to vote according to orders-to exercise a privilege from which the resident Catholics of Galway, and many of the Protestant residents also, were wholly excluded. Thus was the genuine right of election perverted into a mere mockery of the Act of 1793, extending the privilege of voting to the Irish Catholics, rendered unavailing with respect to this important town. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. PETITION FROM THE BRITISH MUSEUM FOR THE PURCHASE OF A COLLECTION OF ANTIQUITIES.] A Petition from the trus tees of the British Museum was brought up and read, setting forth, "That by the munificence of parliament a most valuable collection, consisting chiefly of ancient sculptured marbles, formed with great taste and judgment by the late Charles Towneley, esq., was purchased at the public expence, and placed under the care and management of the in addition to the said collection of ancient trustees of the British Museum, and that marbles formed by the said Charles Towneley, esq., there was also collected by him a very extensive series of smaller and that Peregrine Edward Towneley, antiquities of great variety and beauty, Mr. Daly said that he would yield to esq., the present proprietor of this collecno one in attachment to the interests of tion of antiquities, has declared his wilthe Catholic body, but he could not sup- tioned collection of marbles upon fair and lingness to add them to the above-menport a measure which proposed a direct infraction of the chartered rights of Galceive the acquisition of this collection reasonable terms, and the petitioners conway. The Catholics of Galway, who were not invested with the privilege of voting, had, in fact, no more right to complain than those Catholics of Dublin or Cork, or any other city or town who were not admitted to a participation of the privileges of the corporation, and he denied that the Act of 1793 ever proposed to interfere with the chartered. rights of any place whatever. The hon. member concluded with moving an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time this day six months, which amendment was agreed to. PETITIONS RESPECTING THE CORN LAWS. Mr. Lambton presented a Petition against any change in the corn laws from the town of Sunderland, which was, he said, signed by 5,000 persons. Sir C. Burrell took this occasion of stating, that very improper means had been used to obtain signatures to some of the petitions presented to the House upon this subject. In one instance, that of the town of Kelso, he was assured by the most respectable authority, that the signatures of children were actually annexed to the petition; nay, even French prisoners were resorted to in order to swell the list of the petitioners. Such, or similar impositions upon the House, ought, he felt, to be fully exposed. would be attended with national advantages, and that they are desirous of making application to the House for a grant to enbut the time prescribed by the order of able them to purchase the said collection, the House for presenting petitions has not present their petition within the preelapsed; and that the petitioners could scribed time, the proposal for the sale of the said collection not having been made to them, or the value of it ascertained, till time; and praying, that they may now within a very short period of the present have leave to present their petition for the purposes aforesaid." Ordered to be referred to a Committee, with power to send for persons, papers and records. PETITIONS RESPECTING THE Office of GAUGER OF THE PORT OF LONDON.] A Petition of several merchants and importers of and dealers in wines, spirits, oils, and other gaugeable liquors, was presented and read, setting forth, That_the_petitioners observe, by the votes of the House, that a select committee has been appointed, to enquire into the operation and effect of the several Acts for erecting docks, and otherwise improving the port of London, so far as relates to the gauging of wine and other gaugeable commodities imported into the |