blot upon her pure annals and estimable | first of January, 1792, to which it was character.

letter, that the opening of letters addressed to the prisoners was unlawful; and that the prisoners should have free communication with their legal advisers. Such, he believed, was the general practice, and he should have much doubted, if it had not been stated on oath, that any person who presented himself in the character of a legal adviser, had been refused admission to a prisoner. There might be extreme cases where it might be proper to open letters of prisoners, but they should be extreme; and he could scarcely conceive any thing that could authorise such a proceeding in the case of a person confined for debt, or for fines due to the crown. In persons committed for felony, the case might be in some degree different. The existence of the practices asserted by the witness had been denied by very respectable persons, of whom he had enquired on the subject. As to the committee of enqairy mentioned by the noble earl he should not object to it.

stated, that he was an attorney at law, at Gloucester; that he had two clients, named J. Perrin and J. Yeates, confined in Gloucester prison; previously to the last assizes he had applied at the gaol to see Mr. Yeates, and had been refused, principally by Mr. Cunningham, the gaoler. Mr. Yeates had been formerly an attorney at law, and was defendant in a cause at the Gloucester assizes, in which a verdict had been given against him. Mr. Yeates had since declared, that he had lost his cause because he had not had a private conversation with witness. On the 18th of June last, witness applied to see J. Perrin, who was also his client, and was refused by the gaoler. About this time, a letter was delivered to witness by Mr. Yeates; as witness was taking the letter out of the prison, he was asked by Cunningham, the gaolar, what letter it was? witness answered, it was a letter from Mr. Yeates to him (witness); Cunningham asked witness to let him see it; witness gave it him, but bade him open it at his Earl Stanhope was glad that the noble peril; Cunningham, however, took the let-viscount had acted so properly on the octer, and broke the seal, read it, and took a copy of it. On the 18th of the present month, witness had had a conversation with Cunningham, relative to a letter sent from lord Sidmouth, and asked him, whether he had not received a letter from lord S. saying, that opening letters from the prisoners, was illegal? Cunningham answered, “whether I have, or have not, I shall do as I please." Since the 18th of the present month, witness had again applied to be admitted to his client; but he had received as an answer from Simmons, the clerk to the gaoler, that he had received no such authority from Mr. Cunningham. The witness was ordered to withdraw.

Earl Stanhope then said, that he had proved all which he had wished to prove; and should leave it to the consideration of their lordships, whether, as such strong -facts had been proved, a committee should be appointed to consider of the case, or whether another course of proceeding, which he thought best, and for which there were many precedents, should be adopted, namely, to order the King's Attorney General to prosecute the gaoler.

Lord Sidmouth began by remarking, that the letter mentioned in the evidence was sent by him, not to the gaoler, but to the chairman of the court of the quarter sessions, in whom the power of controlling the gaoler resided. He had stated in that

casion, by informing the magistrates of the illegality of the proceedings complained of; but it was only an aggravation of the case, if it could be aggravated, that, in general, attorneys were admitted to their clients in the gaol in question, because it followed that not only there was a had rule, but that it was partially followed up; for it had been stated at the bar, on oath, that in a particular case an attorney had been refused admittance, and the evidence had been delivered in so unexceptionable a manner, that no peer had even thought fit to cross-examine the witness, He should proceed with a motion for enquiry, if the noble viscount did not pledge himself to make an enquiry himself, and proceed, if the facts turned out as they appeared at present from the evidence, to take such proper measures as were in the power of government; for it would not be proper, that people of this country should be left under lock and key to be so tormented.

Lord Sidmouth stated, that whether or no the noble earl proceeded to move for a committee, he should feel it his duty to enquire into the circumstances of the case, which had been quite differently represented to him by the magistrates, who had stated that access had never been denied to legal advisers. He had also a letter in his pocket from one of the petitioners to the House, who had represented this

Earl Stanhope said, that if it turned out that abuses had prevailed, he hoped the the noble viscount would proceed not very smoothly against the offenders. What information the noble viscount had received from these magistrates and others, was not worth one nib of a straw, in opposition to the evidence taken at the bar. The magistrates might have heard and believed that no obstacle had been thrown in the way of the admission of the legal advisers of the prisoners; but a case had been fully proved at the bar to the contrary. He should leave to the responsibility of the noble viscount the further consideration of this important subject. Lord Holland said, the evidence was of great importance, and thought it should be printed.

The evidence was accordingly ordered to be printed.

IRISH SEDITIOUS MEETINGS BILL.] The order of the day for the second reading of the Irish seditious meetings Bill being read,

matter quite differently from that in which | this Bill, subject, however, to an objection he had stated it in his petition. in some quarters, on the ground of taking away part of the benefit of the trial by jury. The necessity of quelling this spirit of disturbance, was universally felt and acknowledged by those who had the best acquaintance with the situation of Ireland; and, he trusted, that those noble lords in that House, who more particularly knew what was the state of that country, would inform their lordships of their impresssion as to the necessity of this measure. The evils with which that country was at present afflicted, did not arise from the defective state of civilization in many parts of Ireland. They were not the consequence of meetings, and ordinary riots at fairs; but they had their foundation in the most nefarious of purposes and dispositions: they arose from combinations among the lower orders, who became bound by oaths of the most solemn character, to prosecute objects of the most mischievous nature, by means the most horrid and nefarious. The most lamentable outrages had prevailed. Torture had been often inflicted; murder frequently perpetrated. If he were to lay before Lord Sidmouth observed, that it was his their lordships all the information that painful duty to bring this measure under had reached government on this subject, the consideration of their lordships. This it would be impossible for any one among was a Bill of a very different description them, he thought, not to acknowledge the from the Bill which he had brought under necessity of some such measure as the their notice a few days ago. This Bill, present, though the information would he was sorry the necessity existed, did shock their minds, and wound their feelpropose to make some alteration in the ings. In the county of Westmeath, in law. It conferred new and extraordinary the Queen's county, in the county of Tippowers on the magistrates. It could only perary, and a variety of other counties, be necessity, that could justify the confer- these outrages prevailed, which were disring of such powers on the magistrates, graceful to those who committed them, and it was on that ground only, that it and which it would be disgraceful to the was proposed to their lordships to adopt government to permit to continue. It was the measure. The state of disturbance in for the purpose of giving security to the which several parts of Ireland, and too well-disposed and peaceable inhabitants many parts of it, were at this moment, of these disturbed counties, that this Bill was notorious; and that unhappily was brought forward.-The noble Secreconstituted the necessity for this Bill. tary then, by way of illustration, read There was not a single individual, well ac- some passages from applications made to quainted with the state of Ireland, who the lord lieutenant. for the revival of the doubted that it was absolutely necessary Act of the 47th of the King, by the magisto adopt some measure of this description. trates, and principal proprietors, in the He did not say, that, as a foundation for county of Westmeath, and another of the any political measure, their lordships disturbed counties. One of these was could rest merely on reports of what had signed by lords Castlemain and Westpassed in another place; but, it was stat-meath, and 47 magistrates. The disturbed, that, in the other House, when the ances, in spite of the examples made, had other Bill was brought forward, there was increased. A man had been assassinated an universal attestation of the necessity of that measure. There was also a general attestation of the urgent expediency of

in the midst of a congregation at church, not one of whom attempted to seize the assassin. A man had given evidence on

the trial of several persons for a most lord lieutenant, he should be empowered atrocious murder, similar to the murder to issue a proclamation, declaring the of Mr. Horsfall, two or three years ago, county, or district, in a state of disturbin this country. It had been perpetrated ance, and appointing a special session of by nine persons, who were the half of a magistrates to try disorderly persons, the party delegated by three different vil- session to be presided over by a king's lages, for the perpetration of this murder. serjeant, or other barrister, who, in case They had cast lots, who should undertake of his disapproving of the proceedings, was to have the power of suspending the it; the lot fell on these nine, and these had cast lots among themselves, which execution of the sentence, until he had individual should strike the blow. They submitted them to the lord lieutenant. were seized, brought to trial, and six of Other provisions were added, respecting them were condemned and executed. The the impannelling of a jury, the proceedchief evidence was a respectable man, ing by information, and the punishment who was instantly apprised of his danger. for taking the unlawful oaths, seven years He made his escape, and was kept for transportation; and, for the other excesses Those called some time protected in lord Castlemain's according to their degree. house. But against the advice of his lord- disorderly, were such as were found outship, or those in the house at the time, beside their houses from an hour after sonleft it, and went home; and the very first set, to within an hour of sun-rise, the concealers of arms, and the takers of unlawful night he was there, he and his wife were oaths. murdered. Those misguided people were The Earl of Carysfort addressed the so little deterred by fear of the law, that some length upon the sub. excesses had been committed on the 4th House at of the present month, even while the ject, and took an historical view of the Westmeath assizes were going on. It mode and principle upon which the Engwas observable, that the oath lately taken lish government of Ireland, in fact, and differed from that before the restoration practice, generally proceeded, from the of peace. The former enjoined secrecy, period of the reign of Elizabeth, down to truth to the "committee," a solemn bond the present time. In this view, his lordto pursue informers to death, either by ship seemed to think the benefits, or adhanging, drowning, or "laying under vantages, of the real constitution of Eng ground," dead or alive: and finally, to land, had never been fairly or fully comassist the French on their landing. The municated to Ireland; more especially latter retaining the original clauses of se- with respect to the important consideracrecy, bound to demolish government, tion of the administration of justice to the "to root up pride and tyranny," to abo- people at large. The Bill, he thought, lish tithes and taxes, and plant the tree went to give a most alarming extent of of liberty. On those oaths, no comment discretionary power to the executive go. was necessary, farther than to prevent the vernment, over the people of Ireland, supposition, that he had any idea of actual and what he must think a novel, and danger to government from them: but highly questionable mode; these powers they were the fruits of a desperate and were given in a way, which not only mievil spirit, threatening much suffering to litated against the best principles of the the peaceable cominunity. There was English constitution, but proceeded in a not the slightest reason to believe, that course perfectly opposed to that, by which those criminals had any leaders above the judicial administration of the laws their own rank, or, that any man of re- was regulated in this country; where the spectability was concerned with them. person who presided in the courts of jusHis lordship then stated the nature of the tice, was, instead of being a prejudiced Bill, which was, with a few additional accuser of the parties brought for trial beenactments, the same as that formerly fore him, bound in duty to be, if they had before the House. It proposed, that two no other, their legal defender; and this magistrates should have the power of proposition he urged in contrast to the arsummoning a meeting of the other magis- bitrary powers given to local magistrates, trates and gentlemen of the district, for by the Bill in question. His lordship the purpose of having a special session, then commented on the actual situation of which was, at no time, to take place in the people of Ireland. The common peoless than seven days. That, upon the re-ple were more estranged than any other presentation of those magistrates to the from the nobility, and this arose from the

by jury. He understood, that it was intended to reduce the term of existence of the Bill from three to two years, which had his approbation; yet he must oppose the general nature of the Bill itself, as it punished without the intervention of a jury, and threw upon persons the onus of prov ing their own innocence. He could not but add, that the Bill of 1807 had no sanction from him. The motive assigned for it was, the existence of a strong French party in Ireland; but as it was notorious, that no such party existed at present, the revival of the measure was, in his mind, unnecessary, and, therefore, he should enter his protest against it.

[858 necessary situation in which they were amendment that had been, or could be placed. When contrasted with the lower made in it, would obviate his insuperable orders in this country, the people of Ire-objection to the dispensing with the trial land appeared only like slaves. There was not a man in England, who did not know, that the fruits of his labour were protected; and, if he fell into calamity, his country afforded him assistance; but the state of the people of Ireland, on the contrary, could not be described by any other name, than that of slavery. They had neither dwellings, clothes to cover them, property to support them, not even liberty. Hence, people in this situation could not be expected to shew attachment to the government, because they experienced no protection from it; they did not even know that they lived under a government; and, being in such a deplorable and desperate state, they were ready for any thing. He objected to the Bill before the House, because it gave new powers; it directed the strength and vengeance of the state against those who stood most in need of its protection and assistance; while it was not even sufficient for restoring peace in places that might be disturbed. It went to authorize magistrates, to transport a man for seven years, on no other ground, than not being found in his house ten minutes after sun-set. By such laws, neither the morals nor the peace of Ireland could ever be promoted: but as long as the principles of the ancient law were adhered to by government, and the trial by jury continued, no apprehension need be entertained. His lordship concluded, with saying, that, with these impressions on his mind, he found it impossible to vote for the second reading of the Bill, which, he was convinced, would only create and augment the mischief it pretended to remedy; and, with this conviction, he should move, that, instead of now, it be read a second time on 1st of September.-On the question being put,

Lord Holland said, he did not mean to detain the House, by repeating any of his former observations, but he could not refrain saying, that he thought there could be but one opinion of the Bill, which was, that its principle was quite abhorrent to all ideas of civil liberty. Yet, he felt no hesitation in saying, that of many of the amendments and alterations that had been introduced in it, he fully approved; particularly that, which went to place a person of legal knowledge and babits at the head of the sessions: But not any

Earl Stanhope declared himself an enemy to the Bill in toto, and should be sorry to be considered by any man alive as giving his sanction to a measure so unjust, obnoxious, and unconstitutional. His lordship descanted on the hardships to which the lower classes in Ireland were subjected; particularly the poor tenantry; the last taker of land being liable to be distrained, by all the men above him; and he considered it scandalous on the part of government, that nothing was done to relieve the people from such horrible oppression. As to the principle of the Bill before the House, he considered it as a curse on the country, and worse than the Norman Curfeu. It was not enough to debate the Bill; and, as persuasion would be useless, he should move, in the Committee, that it be made to end with the termination of the next session of parliament.

Lord Holland briefly objected to a part of a clause which authorised the appointment of counsel, if any such could be procured, on the ground, as we understood, that counsel could and ought always to be obtained.

Lord Sidmouth signified his assent to the alteration, and the Bill was then read a second time and committed for to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, July 27.

GENERAL GORE.] Mr. Marsh presented a Petition from William Firth, Esq. barrister, of Norwich, complaining of the conduct of general Gore, in the government of Upper Canada, of which province the petitioner had been Attorney General, The hon., member stated, that he con