proved of it. In the conversation which took place, that gentleman did not say any thing that could warrant the remarks which had been read by the hon. gentleman. The bullion question, in particular, had not been mentioned at all. They had talked of the great distress of the manufacturing classes, of the two motions for inquiry into that subject, and of the grounds upon which ministers had opposed those motions. The motion of the hon. member for Shrewsbury had been opposed, because it blended the consideration of other political questions with the inquiry: and that of the hon. member for Southampton was opposed, chiefly because it was founded on the plan of a gentleman (Mr. Owen) who held opinions on certain subjects different from those of other persons, although, perhaps, it would have been well, if that gentleman's opinions on some subjects, particularly on education, had been attended to. It was, therefore, inferred, that if a proposition for inquiry, free from the grounds of objection which had been urged against both the former motions, were submitted to parliament, ministers it was likely would accede to it. But as to the gentleman with whom the petition originated, he had no connexion whatever with ministers; but, on the contrary, entertained, he believed, political opinions of an opposite nature; and so far from his having any view to the bullion question, he knew him to be the firmest friend to the plan for the resumption of cash-payments. The gentleman of whom he was speaking, did accordingly draw up the excellent and moderate petition which had been read to the House. As far as concerned his hon. friend who had spoken last, and who had spoken so well, he could vouch for the fact, that he knew nothing of the petition till he was requested to present it. He had himself been applied to on the subject of presenting it, and had thought that his hon. friend, the member for Taunton, would be the most proper person, but it was ascertained that he was not in town. He had then suggested his hon. friend on his right (Mr. Ellice) but he had declined it. It then appeared to him that his hon. friend would be the fittest person, he being one of the most eminent merchants in the kingdom, and one whose opinions were likely to have the greatest weight. If the hon. gentleman had known the time allowed for obtaining signatures, instead of remarking on the smallness of

the number, he would have been inclined to 'express his surprise, that so many names should have been affixed to it in so short a time. He hoped the House would receive the petition, and take the subject into consideration at as early a period as possible after the recess. If the prayer of this petition were attended to, it would at least give a ray of hope to the suffering part of the community.

Mr. Ricardo was happy to hear it stated by all the hon. gentlemen who had spoken, that the laws enacted last year concerning the currency of the country, ought not to be disturbed. The country was, unquestionably, in a state of great distress, but he differed in opinion from his hon. friend who presented the petition as to the cause of that distress. His hon. friend thought that this country was in a state of forced currency, and that the evils both at home and abroad arose from the regulations which that House had made relative to the currency. That cause, however, he was convinced, was totally inadequate to produce such an effect, and therefore the evil must be traced to other sources. He might here remark, that his hon. friend had brought an unexpected accusation against him, namely, that he had proposed a plan for the regulation of the currency, but that he had not the merit of originality. Now, he did not think that he had ever claimed that merit, for he was aware that many persons before his time had taken a similar view of the subject, and he hoped that whatever might be the merit of the application which he had made of principles known to others, he had stated his opinions with becoming modesty. He conceived that the distress was chiefly to be ascribed to the inadequacy of the capital of the nation to carry on the operations of trade, manufacture, and commerce. But why was the capital more inadequate now than formerly? If the profits on capital were higher, and labour more productive in other countries, it could not be doubted that capital would be transferred to those countries: no proposition in Euclid was clearer than this. Now, he thought they had greatly aggravated this evil by bad legislation, and he had formerly mentioned instances. He had referred to the corn-laws as one example; and however unpopular the doctrine might be with some gentlemen, he would state his opi nion freely, that he believed the corn-laws to have materially increased the evil,

the general system of the trade of the country. But still great good might be expected from the investigations of such a committee, who would, he hoped, enter particularly into the consideration of the corn laws. His hon. friend had suggested that a certain modification should take place in the arrangements made towards the removal of the restrictions upon the Bank, namely, that the Bank should not be called upon to pay in bullion until the period arrived for such payment at the lowest rate. Now he, on the contrary, thought that it would be much more for the advantage of the Bank itself, to make the payments in the order already settled; because such payments being made gradually would serve to break the fall, and prepare the Bank for the complete resumption of metallic payments. The only modification, indeed, which he deemed desirable on this subject was, that the Bank should be called upon permanently to pay its notes in bullion, instead of coin; for he could not conceive the policy of incurring the expense of coining gold merely for the purpose of the currency, which could be answered as well, if not more conveniently, by paper. The only object to be provided for in this case was, that the real value of the paper should be equal to its denominative value, according to a settled and universal standard of value, or according to its nominal amount in coin. His hon. friend had recommended the establishment of two standards of value, namely, silver and gold; but this was a project, in his opinion, peculiarly objectionable, because, if there were two standards, there would be greater chance of variation, and the establishment of the least variable standard of value was the object to be desired, with a view to maintain the character of our currency.

These laws had tended to raise the price of sustenance, and that had raised the price of labour, which of course diminished the profit on capital. But of all this evil, the national debt, and the consequent amount of taxation, was the great cause. Hence the main object of the legislature should be to provide for the payment of that debt, and that provision should commence its operation as soon as possible. For as this debt was chargeable upon all the capital of the country, it was obvious that any capital which went out of the country was exonerated from that charge, while the capital which remained was of course compelled to pay a greater proportion of debt and taxes. To guard against this evil, which was productive at once of individual injustice and national injury, the whole capital of the country ought to be assessed for the discharge of the public debt, so that no more capital should be allowed to go out of the country without paying its fair proportion of that debt. The execution of this plan might be attended with difficulty, but then the importance of the object was worthy of an experiment to overcome every possible difficulty. The whole of the plan through which he proposed the payment of the public debt, might in his view be carried into effect within four or five years. For the discharge of the public debt, he proposed that checks should be issued upon the government to each purchaser, which checks should be kept distinct from the ordinary circulating medium of the country, but should be received by the government in payment of taxes. Thus the debt might be gradually liquidated while the government continued gradually receiving the assessments upon capital to provide for that liquidation. He would not, however, dwell farther upon this chimerical project, as he understood it was considered by every one except himself, but proceed to the consideration of the petition, his hon. friend proposed, as particularly worthy of attention, that a committee of that House should inquire into certain restrictions upon commerce, with a view to their removal. But his hon. friend should reflect, that no immediate effect could be reasonably expected from the labour of such a committee for such a purpose, as the restrictions alluded to, however burthen some, could not be suddenly removed. This removal must, indeed, take place by slow degrees, entwined as they were with

Mr. Finlay was an advocate for the object which the petition had in view, although he could not help thinking the question proposed for inquiry extremely complicated. It would perhaps be better to take one branch of this great question at a time than to enter into the whole of it at once. The freedom of trade was, no doubt, asound principle in theory, but gentlemen were not generally aware of the difficulties which presented themselves, when an attempt was made to carry that principle into practice. The distress of the country, at present, he attributed to over specula tion, over importation, and over manufac

ture. He differed, therefore, from the hon. member for Portarlington, who considered that distress as the fruit of excessive taxation, the corn laws, and high wages, which, according to that hon. member, disqualified this country from selling our manufactures as cheap as other countries, where the taxation and wages were comparatively less. But how did the fact stand? Why, that in the cotton trade, the manufacturers of which were the most distressed at present, we were enabled to undersell all the foreign manufacturers in their own market. What, then, became of the hon. gentlemen's theory as to taxation and low wages, and their effects? The people engaged in manufactures were no doubt suffering hardships, which every good man must deplore. But while they suffered from low wages, and especially in Scotland, it was to be recollected, that their wages were better than the same class of manufacturers received in Germany and America; for the distress of trade was universal, and this formed the aggravation of our distress. The hon. member expressed his persuasion that ministers were disposed to do every thing in their power for the alleviation of the public calamity.

Mr. W. Douglas thought inquiry most imperiously called for; for unless the grievances of the people were considered, and their distress relieved, no hope could be entertained of permanent tranquillity. When the people were in distress, and discontented in 1812, coercive measures were adopted, but no steps were taken to relieve distress or remove the cause of discontent. Upon the recurrence of distress and disaffection in 1816 and 1817, coercive measures alone were again resorted to; and now, in 1819, the same course was to be followed. But after such recent experience, was it wise to persevere in such a system?

with being of a description of persons who had overtraded without the possession of any capital. It was plain indeed that his hon. friend's extraordinary zeal on bullion and Bank questions had, on the present, as on other occasions, led him too far. Had he, without even reading the petition, looked only to the signatures, he would have found in them a sufficient guarantee of their respectability-he would have found amongst them also some of the most respectable supporters of the bullion principle as any members in that House. He could mention the name of one, Mr. M'Caulay, who though not in general disposed to the views of Opposition, had, from the commencement, entertained the soundest views on that question. There were others of the petitioners who were formerly members of that House, who had been members of the very bullion committee. It would appear also, that the House of Commons was not the only House in which divisions existed, for he believed, that the hon. member for Marlow, if he had read the names, would have found that of his own brother affixed to it [hear, and no!]; if not his own brother, at least a very near connexion. But it was said, why delay the presentation of the petition to this day, when the House was so near to the adjournment? There was this good reason, this natural solution of the delaythat the petitioners waited under the hope that parliament would have done something to meet existing difficulties, without their intervention. He agreed with them that the attention of parliament ought to be speedily directed to the question, and having said so, he took the present opportunity of stating in answer to applications made to him as well by hon. members of that House, as by other gentlemen out of it, to know whether it was his intention to submit any motion on the commercial distresses, that he had no such intention. He was in

other orders of the day. Besides, it was his conviction, that any proposition for such a change in the commercial interests of the country, as was suited to the altered state of our political relations with other nations, could be attended with no beneficial effect, if undertaken by any person not connected with the administration. It required the government to bend its whole attention to the subject. They had better means than any individual

member could have of acquiring the fullest information on the subject. They ought to undertake it, on their constitutional responsibility. To carry to its accomplishment such an investigation-to decide amidst the conflicting interests which beset it in every stage of its progress, demanded a strong and efficient government. He agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Ricardo), that nothing would be more fatal than any interference with the system adopted last session relative to cash payments. Any thing calculated to favour any cry against that arrangement, would inevitably increase the mischief. It was to be recollected, that those persons who most urgently pressed its adoption, had never shut their eyes to the fact, that some embarrassment must attend the change from the one system to the other. He agreed with him also, in the conviction, that the desired alteration in our commercial relations could not be the work of a day, from the nature of the interests opposed to each other; it was necessary, then, that the change should operate over a space of time. There was however one point on which he had wished so great an oracle, as he must ever consider him on such subjects, had not pronounced the decided opinion he had. He alluded to the possibility, or, if possible, the adviseableness of paying off the national debt. The proposition was not a new one-it had been years ago suggested by Mr. Hutchinson, indeed, he believed every chancellor of the exchequer had a similar proposition made to him every year. It had in more recent times been brought before the public by Dr. Watson, bishop of Landaff, and, with the highest respect for the talents of that meritorious individual, he could not consider that production as the most favourable specimen. The effect of such a measure would be to place the property for five years at the mercy of all the solicitors, conveyancers, and moneyhunters, in the country.

Lord Castlereagh agreed in every thing that had been said relative to the respectability of the petitioners, but he could not allow that House to separate under an impression, that the commercial interests of the country were overlooked or forgotten by the ministers of the Crown. With them it was an object of great solicitude. If any practical view opened on the minds, either of the petitioners or of the hon. gentleman who presented it, his right hon. friend at the head of the board of

trade would, he had no doubt, be most anxious to receive the communication. With respect to the reference made to the great question which employed the attention of parliament last session, he, who had during that discussion been fully aware of the pressure of the remedy, agreed with the learned member, that every principle of practical wisdom and state policy required that not a doubt should be suffered to exist as to the arrangement being carried into effect.

Mr. Ellice heard with regret from the noble lord, that in place of the government on its own responsibility taking up the inquiry into the public distress, for the purpose of providing that relief, which must be applied, and quickly, the noble lord had left it to the proposition of individual members of that House. As to what had been stated by the hon. member who denied the effect of taxation on the manufacturing distresses, he differed from him most decidedly. If some arrangement was not effected before the period for the bullion payments arrived, under such a system of taxation, he feared an alarming crisis was near.

Mr. Alderman Heygate said, he imputed the distresses to the great diminution of the currency, which had been for a long time gradually going on. When nine millions had been withdrawn from the circulation, great mischief and distress must have been the result. He believed much of the confusion had already taken place, and from what he heard from various parts, confidence was reviving. Let government but state the extent to which the diminution of the circulation should go, and the distress, the effect of uncertainty and want of confidence, would quickly disappear.

The petition was ordered to be printed.

HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, December 27. NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL.] Lord Sidmouth, on moving the second reading of the bill, congratulated their lordships on the progress that had been made in effecting the purpose for which they had been called together, this being the last of the bills which it had been thought necessary to propose. Their lordships and the other House of Parliament had met the difficulties and dangers of the crisis in a manner the best calculated to stem them; and the measures that had

received the assent of the Crown had already had a beneficial effect in correcting a part of the evils against which they were directed. It was deeply to be regretted that the evils to be provided against should arise out of the abuse of what were undoubtedly the privileges and the rights of the people-the freedom of meeting to discuss grievances, and the freedom of the press. With regard to the first, every care had been taken not to interfere with the legitimate right of meeting; and the fact was, that every meeting that could be made available for the purposes of actual free discussion, was not only left untouched by that act, but by the regulations of the act they were rendered more available to the lawful purposes for which they were intended. To regulate the public press was certainly a matter of greater difficulty, so as to steer clear of trenching upon its freedom. But to the objections in certain quarters, that it was better to do nothing, he could not agree. The present bill proceeded upon the unhappily notorious fact, that blasphemous and seditious publications had been circulated to a great extent; and when it was said that these publications would find their antidote, and that it was unnecessary to restrain them by law, he would refer their lordships to a great statesman, who had observed how dangerous it was for a man to try how much poison his constitution would bear. That the poison circulated by the publications which this bill was intended to restrain, must produce an effect greatly to be deplored, could scarcely be doubted, when it was considered that in every cottage in some districts of the kingdom (he thanked God not in all) were these poisonous publications disseminated. His lordship described briefly the provisions of the bill. The great obstacle had been, the difficulty in finding out the actual printer or publisher of these blasphemous and seditious works, he generally contriving to issue his works only to those upon whom he could depend. Thus five informations had been filed against Carlile, as the vender of a seditious publication, because Sherwin, the printer, could not be found. The regulations in the bill, upon this and other points, would, he trusted, have the effect of checking the circulation of those poisonous publications, and he trusted also that their lordships would not hesitate to pass it, seeing, as they must, that blasphemy and sedition had en

tered into a conspiracy against the religion and the constitution of the country, which could only be effectually put down by the strong arm of the law.

The Earl of Donoughmore said:Ministers have, then, at last wound up, to a happy and appropriate conclusion, by this attack upon the freedom of the press, those measures of indiscriminate coercion, that system of pains and penalties which they had devised against a suffering and a prostrate people, and which have been carried into complete and unrelenting execution by overwhelming majorities in both Houses of Parlia ment-those ready instruments in the hands of the servants of the Prince Regent, to keep his majesty's subjects down-that best of all possible arguments, in the opinion at least of the noble knight of the Thistle on the cross bench, in favour of their own practice, whatever that practice may happen to be. Such are the true characteristics of these fearful measures. But what is the light in which we are called upon to view them by their authors and abettors on the other side of the House? Instead of a successful attack upon the liberties of all the people, the noble earl in the blue ribbon has not hesitated to take credit for these enactments, as a mild system of remedial measures-measures of peculiar grace and mercy towards the whole community, necessarily called for, for the protection of the faithful subjects of the state, against the inroad of certain impending dangers, which, however, have come into existence-have been born and bred, and have arrived at full maturity, during the very short period which has intervened since the last prorogation of parliament. If ministers had been aware of the impending storm, is it possible that they could so far have neglected their duty as to have sent the members of both Houses home, without giving them some authentic intimation of the dangers with which the country was encompassed? And is it not making too great a demand upon our credulity, for ministers to call upon us to believe, that in four short months this mushroom rebellion has sprung up, and has already assumed so formidable an appearance? What, then, is the result of all this? My lords, I do not feel myself entitled to believe that disaffection has extended itself widely. I am not bound to give implicit credit to the representations which ministers think fit to make in their