400°, and therefore there is not the same necessity for extreme heat as there is in brick kilns, porcelain kilns and such things, where oil will compete with coal at two dollars and a half a ton. It would not do it for steam purposes, because you get a higher efficiency from the coal as well as from the oil.

Mr. Fish has referred to some miraculous results that have been obtained in the neighborhood of Boston, from another oil plant, where they were evaporating from seventyfive to ninety pounds of water to the pound of oil. I happen to know a little of that because I was requested to investigate the thing; make a preliminary investigation; see how much there was in it. One gentleman, within a week or two, reported an actual experiment that he carried out. himself, lasting sixteen hours, where he evaporated seventyfive pounds of water to a pound of oil. Well, I am not much of a believer in miracles at the present day, and that is too much of a miracle. I told the people, after reading these reports, that there were two horns of the dilemma, one was that the thing was a fraud and the other was that it was the greatest discovery of modern ages, and if it was the latter we wanted to get into it as soon as we could; but looking over the plant, the arrangement was very well put up, and was of such a nature that I reported the only way to investigate it was for somebody to go there and spend from ten days to two weeks right on the spot. It wasn't a thing that could be investigated in a few hours, and I hadn't the time to devote to it, but I could find a competent person, if they wanted him found. There was a gentleman selected and sent over, and he made his preliminary investigation and laid down certain lines for the investigation which the promoters of the scheme said reflected on their integrity, and therefore they could not allow the experiment to go on. That, to my mind, finishes the thing as a fraud, and there is no question in my mind that any claim to get more out of the oil than there is in it is a fraud. There is nothing in the oil beyond what heat constituents will give, — the hydrogen and carbon will

give certain results, or our physicists have been mistaken for the last hundred years, and unless they have been mistaken the whole thing is a fraud.

Mr. FISH. I would like to say just one word. In the first place Mr. Manning says my system. Well, now, it isn't my system at all. It is a system that, it happens, was put into the mill where I am. When this paper was written I had no more to do with it than any of you gentlemen, but that probably was a slip of the tongue. Now, in regard to the matter of steam used, I did neglect to say that the amount of steam used in this process was much the same as in other processes, I cannot say exactly as to quantity, but all steam users take steam as he says, to carry the oil, or as a conveyer. They all use steam; and they take it from the boiler. The Aerated Company used steam, and I do not know of any process where they do not use power or steam, that is, power in one shape or another, so that this using steam is not an item which appears in that process, and does not in any other process. As to the coal used, I referred in the paper to the fact that it did have to be used, but I neglected to say how much it took. It takes on an average about four hundred pounds of coarse screenings, which we get from the coal sheds, and which costs us about two dollars a ton. That is, twenty-four hours, running day and night. The cost of that, to run the producer, is about forty cents a day, to be added to the other items which I put in the paper. Referring to Mr. Manning's tests of 8.55 pounds, I do not want Mr. Manning to think that that is all his boiler can do; but tests taken at the same time as the tests on oil, gave us 8.55 pounds.

A MEMBER. How was the coal as to being dry?

Mr. FISH. I did not evaporate the coal. I do not know but the coal was in about the same condition as almost everybody's coal, unless they have got a good house to store it in. The coal had been out of doors and was out of doors, but whether the time that the test was made was at the end of a six weeks dry time or after a thunder-storm, I could not say. I should suppose it was the average test of coal.

Mr. MESSENGER. I would like to inquire in regard to the difference in efficiency of the oil. It says on page 56: "With an experience covering eight months of constant testing on a battery of three one hundred and seventy horse-power boilers, I find that there is at least a difference of twenty per cent. in the efficiency of the oil, all supposed to be the same grade of crude." I ask you this question, as our engineer and myself had some difference of opinion in regard to it. I handed this paper to him, and he has enclosed that in parentheses. I have some doubt as to there being the difference in the oil that he has fixed. I want to ask you how you arrived at that conclusion, that there was so much difference in the oil?

Mr. FISH. We made thorough tests. The readings were taken every hour. Along the first part of it it was done with the tanks entirely; then I put on a water and oil meter and took the two, and the last part of the time we have used a meter. These records were handed to me after they were taken by men who were competent; and a great many I have taken myself, and Mr. Manning has taken a good many; and I notice there was a very great increase in the consumption of oil, on certain days; and in going through these figures the increase in consumption is directly traceable to certain tank cars. They would come in and say, "We are not doing as well to-day as we were yesterday." I would ask, "What is the matter?" They would say, "We have opened a new car this morning." I cannot say that it is absolutely so, but to the best of my knowledge and belief I will say there is twenty per cent. difference in the oil. You may get fifty cars all right and then one car different. That the trouble is with the oil is also made very apparent testing it.

A MEMBER. I would like to ask if a record was mad the outside temperature?

Mr. FISH. Yes; the tests were taken as laid ou navy department. Mr. Manning knows how the taken.

A MEMBER.

The reason I ask that is on account of the fact that I noticed that when our engineer tried poor oil the temperature was low out of doors, and when it was good it was a warm day.

Mr. FISH. I could not see that the temperature had any effect otherwise than that the oil seemed to be a little thicker, but it pumped as easily and burned as easily. our apparatus at about a uniform temperature. in a coil.

It goes into
We warm it

A MEMBER. As I undertand it, these tests were made for heating the mill?

Mr. FISH. Power and heating purposes.

A MEMBER. Referring to page 65, in reference to the test where ninety-two pounds were said to have been obtained, we understand Mr. Manning's remarks and his conclusions that this was a clause with reference to this one item here. I would like to ask you, Mr. Fish, if you understand from what Mr. Manning said, that, aside from the few exceptions that he took to your paper, he excepted to the general conclusions with reference to the relative merits of oil and coal? It is interesting to the members generally to know whether Mr. Manning generally endorses the conclusions reached by Mr. Fish's paper.

Mr. MANNING. Well, as far as they have come under my observation I think the observation has been very carefully kept, and I think the results are very near the truth. Of course in carrying out exact tests on this matter the steam taken for making this gas should be taken from another boiler, so as to get a measure of that, and then deducted, and the results of the boiler is simply the net steam carried off for useful purposes, not the water fed to the boiler. Such a test will be made sooner or later. Indeed there are undoubtedly very many places where oil fuel would be profitable to put in to-day where it is largely a matter of freights; and then again, if we develope two good fuels that we can use interchangeably, and the change from one to the other is a matter of very small consequence, we have more or less control of the production

of oil and coal; that is, they come more in competition, and it has an effect on the price.

The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen, we have two other papers before us, and I want to say that there is another paper on oil fuel here, if you want to hear it. The Board of Directors called upon two other gentlemen to prepare papers. Unless the paper is called for, we will omit it.

A MEMBER. Mr. President, I want to say one word. I do not know to what extent establishments have introduced the use of oil for the production of power, but I know of one or two that have introduced it and have abandoned it since. I want to ask Mr. Fish if he knows the reason.

Mr. FISH. Well, I know this: that the use of oil has been worked up in the same way as the use of electricity or the telephone; and I know of mills where they used oil and threw it out because coal was cheaper; and also know of other mills where they could not get a satisfactory fire; and also mills where they could not get an apparatus which was satisfactory, - the pipes would fill up; so there are numerous reasons why oil should be thrown out. It is pretty hard work for you to put your finger on any one reason, because there are so many.

Mr. ATKINSON. It became necessary for the underwriters to look into this many years ago. The conclusions which were then reached on any information which could then be had were these that where mills could get their coal for less than four dollars and a half for the production of steam they had better stay there at present; the conditions being not then well established. The first plants were put in under very dangerous conditions, the oil running to the fire-boxes instead of running back from the fire-boxes. Since then the oil fuel has been adopted for metallurgical purposes very widely. Even in York, Penn., close to the coal fields, liquid fuel is used in metallurgy, without regard to the price. Those who are using liquid fuel in this way are experimenting upon it with the utmost skill and care, and it is not necessary for