was then submitted for building two breakwaters, one from Toro Point in a northeasterly direction, or generally easterly direction, and another which is detached from the shore as you state. The board which considered this subject recommended that nothing be done toward the construction of the east breakwater until the effect of the west breakwater was ascertained. The object of the breakwater, as laid down by the consulting board, contemplated the protection of the harbor against northers. So far as shipping is concerned, the protection of the harbor against ordinary trade winds is not necessary. It is possible that it may be necessary to protect the channel from the silting of which you speak. The northers come from a northerly or northwesterly direction, and the harbor must be protected against these. That led to the construction of the west breakwater. The construction of east breakwater is not yet determined. It will be determined by the amount of silting and the relative cost of dredging that will result, and also by the relative cost of the west breakwater and the way in which it acts after it has been tested by a storm. The canal is not built for vessels of 40-foot draft, since we have only 41 feet at mean tide in the channel.

Mr. ESCH. What is the width of the opening between the two breakwaters?

Col. GOETHALS. About 2,000 feet. The question is somewhat modified by the adoption of the terminal scheme on the Atlantic side, which contemplates the construction of a mole and the erection of wharves and the dredging of an anchorage basin under the protection of the mole and adjacent to the wharves.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what we ran out on yesterday morning? Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How much further do you contemplate extending it?

Col. GOETHALS. Out to the channel.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that to be the supposed line between our territory and Colon?

Čol. GOETHALS. It is in prolongation of the line separating the territory of the United States from that of Panama.

The CHAIRMAN. In so far as is necessary to protect our own harbor at Cristobal, that work will supply the place of the east breakwater, will it not?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; so far as protection from waves and wind is concerned. We will have to determine what will be the effect of the east breakwater upon the amount of silting that may result from the trade winds, and this question of amount of silting must determine the necessity for such a breakwater.

Mr. Escн. You say the opening between the two breakwaters is 2,000 feet in width?

Col. SIBERT. Each one was to come within a thousand feet of the center of the canal: the width will be 2.000 feet.

Mr. Escн. So it is 2,000 feet in width. Would that narrowing of the channel have the effect of dissipating the height of the waves? Col. SIBERT. Yes, sir; if the wave enters a 2,000-foot opening into a bay 3 miles wide, such wave soon dissipates, or rather does not create a sea in the bay.

Mr. HAMLIN. When will this present breakwater be completed? Col. SIBERT. In the early part of 1914.

Mr. HAMLIN. Then you will have a good opportunity to test that work?

Col. GOETHALS. It makes no difference when that east breakwater is completed or when the west breakwater is completed so far as the canal is concerned. If no protection is given in the harbor, no vessels will come in. Whatever protection is given by the western breakwater will be utilized by shipping; otherwise the ships will probably run up the channel to Gatun and go into the lake, where we have an anchorage under the lee of the hills for vessels, if they do not care to go outside in case of a norther.

Mr. HAMLIN. But suppose the vessels did not contemplate going through the canal?

Col. GOETHALS. Then they can come in the channel and turn in under the mole at Cristobal, and no vessel of sufficient draft would. come in that harbor, at least during the first few years of the operation of the canal that will take anything like 40 feet of water.

Mr. STEVENS. You have room enough there to accommodate commerce?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; we will have a considerable anchorage there, or they can come up into the lake and anchor there.

Mr. STEVENS. I had reference to ships coming from, say, England or the United States and not desiring to pass through the canal? Col. GOETHALS. They can come under the lee of the west breakwater and seek protection there or remain outside.

Mr. SABATH. How deep is the harbor in Colon?

Col. SIBERT. It is of varying depth. At the end of the breakwater its depth is 43 feet, and it gradually shoals to nothing at the shore. Mr. SABATH. I notice that the harbor you are using now, when the Cristobal came in, was very shallow?

Col. SIBERT. That channel is dredged; it is a special channel dug for these ships from the line of the canal up to the docks. There is only about 33 feet of water there, and not that much probably now. Mr. SABATH. They are dredging it, are they not?

Col. SIBERT. We keep it cleaned out.

Mr. SABATH. What is the cost of this new breakwater you are now building?

Col. SIBERT. The total cost of the west breakwater amounts to $4,018,569.42.

Mr. SABATH. What is the length of it?

Col. SIBERT. About 11,000 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you, if I understand correctly the present work that you are doing, including the west breakwater and the mole, etc., is within the estimate of $375,000,000?

Col. GOETHALS. The breakwater is within the estimate of $375,000,000. The mole is partly under these estimates and partly under money that is being advanced by the Panama Railroad.

The CHAIRMAN. But the east breakwater would not be within that estimate.

Col. GOETHALS. It is within these estimates based on a certain unit price, so that if these unit prices are not exceeded, they will be within the estimate of $375,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Otherwise, it might be agreeable to you to have the estimates increased to build the east breakwater.

J

Col. GOETHALS. It is possible that the east breakwater, from present indications, will exceed the cost of the western breakwater, but I hope to have so much left out of the $375,000,000 when we get through that we can easily supply any deficiency for the east breakwater.

The CHAIRMAN. We join with you in that hope.

Mr. STEVENS. What did you say was the total cost of the east breakwater?

Col. SIBERT. The total cost of the east breakwater is $3,543,500.
Mr. STEVENS. How long will it be?

Col. SIBERT. I can not tell you its length; I will put that in the record.

Mr. HAMLIN. If we had both breakwaters would that be a great inducement to commerce to pass through this canal; that is, if they knew they had complete protection in the harbor?

Col. SIBERT. In my opinion, it would be a great advantage to shipping to have a smooth harbor.

Col. GOETHALS. There is no harbor of refuge that guarantees smooth water. When the west breakwater is completed they will have ample protection from the northers, which are the storms they dread. If the ships are going through the canal the breakwater will make little difference, and if they do not care to utilize the canal I do not see why we should have them around. The shipping interests do not fear trade winds; no breakwater is necessary to protect them again these. It may be necessary for us to construct the east breakwater for the preservation of the channel; that is the status.

Mr. HAMLIN. But we want to make this an attractive route, and if we do have a practically locked harbor, would it not add something to the attractiveness of the route?

Col. GOETHALS. The ordinary trade winds do not disturb the shipping and we give them ample protection from the storm they dreadthat is, the northers. They come from the north and northwest, and the western breakwater will protect the shipping against these storms. The east breakwater would not protect them from these storms at all. The CHAIRMAN. We propose to facilitate their passage through the canal, but do not propose to provide a turntable for them.

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you something: What effect would the use of this fresh-water lake have in the way of inviting travel, and would it be beneficial in dissolving and removing. barnacles?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; and in a few years we expect to have the bottom of the canal paved with barnacles.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose that will make the bottom impermeable. Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; until it gets in a condition where dredging will be required.

Mr. COVINGTON. Some reference has been made to the matter of lands in the Canal Zone. I believe you have been on the Isthmus for several years continuously, have you not?

Col. SIBERT. Yes, sir; nearly five years.

Mr. COVINGTON. Have you had any opportunity to observe the cultivation of the land within the Canal Zone during that time? Col. SIBERT. I have been over the country considerably during that time.

Mr. COVINGTON. To what extent has there been any development of agriculture by the persons living in the zone during these five years?

Col. SIBERT. I have seen no development of agriculture. This country is not suited to the production of any of the Temperate Zone products. It is a tropical country, and will produce only the products of the Tropics. At one time I was told that nearly all of the section of the country between Colon and Gatun was one banana plantation, and on the road from Gatun to Colon there have been four or five hundred acres cleared of timber probably 25 years old; and banana sprouts showing everywhere through the woods indicate that that section was originally a banana plantation. I talked with Mr. Stillson and others about it, and they said that the banana industry was stopped on account of a disease that attacked the plants, which occurs in old plantations everywhere, and on account of the excessive charges of the Panama Railroad before the Government bought it. I do not consider it as good a banana country as other parts of the Republic of Panama. Still, the native bananas here and the native oranges are sweet.

I see no reason why this country should not produce good oranges, grapefruit, bananas, alligator pears, or any of the fruits that grow in the Tropics. You can not grow to advantage the Temperate Zone vegetables here. I have been told since the canal has been under construction that the price of labor is so high that the people can not get it at the price that they could profitably pay for it in this work. They pay about 25 cents a day for labor in Jamaica, and we pay that same man 90 cents per day, and it is not practicable to compete with Jamaica on that rate of wages. That, of course, will be different when the canal is finished.

Mr. COVINGTON. Then there is no indication that any of the lands in the zone will become agriculturally valuable; that is, for settlement by Americans or other nationalities accustomed entirely to the cultivation of products grown in the Temperate Zone?

Col. SIBERT. I know of about 15 Americans who have purchased land in the Republic of Panama with the intention of raising tropical fruit. One of the men here, who was a general foreman, Mr. Allen by name, has 6,000 rubber trees three years old in the Republic of Panama. He gave me a list of a number of other people who had purchased land and planted it in rubber and coffee on the Pacific side. This land is planted in rubber, coffee, and coconuts, and they expect to make their homes there.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it, or not, a fact that in the Republic of Panama and in the country to the northward of Panama-in Costa Rica, for example-there is yet obtainable, for Americans who desire to hazard the climate of the Tropics, more easily cultivated, and possibly much richer, land than there is anywhere in the Canal Zone?

Col. SIBERT. The American would rather stay close to the American flag when he goes into Central American countries. He likes to live in a country where the sanitation is good. He likes to live in a town which his country controls or governs.

The CHAIRMAN. Assuming that he will come to the Tropics at all, is it, or not, a fact that there is still obtainable large quantities of

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land in the various Central American countries of a character superior to that of the Canal Zone?

Col. SIBERT. It is a fact. The land on the Atlantic side is not very rich land; that on the Pacific side is pretty good land. It is of a varying character. In back of Bohio the land is pretty good.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't think the disposition of a few Americans to experiment or speculate in rubber or the various products here would cut much figure in spending half a billion dollars in constructing the canal?

Col. SIBERT. I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. Then it is your idea that an American settlement is not probable in event of the Government opening up the Canal Zone lands for settlement?

Col. SIBERT. I would not say that. I have had several men say to me that if they could get land they would stay here.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it not very much more probable that the natural settlement of the Canal Zone lands would be by the races of the West Indies, who are more accustomed to tropical life and are already here working in the Canal Zone?

Col. SIBERT. It is very probable that if a white man got the land he would make the negroes do the work.

The CHAIRMAN. That would establish a white population in the zone very much as you have indicated, would it not?

Col. SIBERT. The white man would not cultivate the land or stay here unless he could get West Indians to do the work.

The CHAIRMAN. Would the presence of that large population, primarily of West Indians, even assuming that they are working for American owners of lands in the zone and making agriculture to a certain degree, be of advantage or disadvantage to that sort of an administration of the people as would best conserve the operation of the zone for canal purposes primarily?

Col. SIBERT. I do not see that it would make any difference one way or the other, so far as that is concerned.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it not require the maintenance of a very much more expensive form of civil government to hold in check that race that would be here than to hold in check merely the men needed for the operation of the canal?

Col. SIBERT. I think it would be a bigger job to hold the 2,500 Americans than the Jamaicans. The American needs the law more than anybody else.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't you think it would be our wisest course, inasmuch as we are footing the bills to the amount of half a billion dollars, that while we are completing matters for the opening of the canal we should acquire, as far as possible, possession of all this land and then, when we commence operation of the canal, decide what use we will make of the land?

Col. SIBERT. I would like to see all the land in the zone owned only by Americans.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't you think it would be the wisest course for the Government to secure possession of all the private lands and then, when the canal begins its operation, determine, if possible, what disposition we will make of the Canal Zone? Or should we get the cart before the horse and decide before we get the canal into operation?