Page images
PDF
EPUB

There was no process of sequestration in the eccleciastical courts, in which many of these causes were agitated. At any rate, the process of sequestration was accompanied with so many difficulties, that it would produce a diminution of the security of that species of property. Besides, the very remedy itself implies compulsion and his yielding to this compulsion shows that his scruple was a pretended one, unless they were to suppose that he had a religious scruple to sequestration still stronger than that he entertained against paying tithes. Sir W. Scott next stated his objection to the provisions of the bill respecting the process being carried on before the justices; first, upon the ground of the general obscurity of the subject, and the intricacy of particular questions which frequently occurred; and secondly, from the influence of local and personal prejudices, from which that useful class of men were not altogether exempted. He controverted the statement of the severities exercised against the Quakers from documents collected from the registers of the different courts. He had directed inquiries to be made of the prosecutions which had been carried on against the Quakers for the last twenty years, and he found that in the diocese of Canterbury there had not been one; that in the diocese of Bristol one had been commenced, in consequence of which the tithes were immediately paid; that there had been one in the diocese of Litchfield and Coventry against six Quakers, but that no imprisonment had taken place; and that there had only been one in the diocese of Worcester, where the Quaker was imprisoned, but was liberated from an error in the writ. There had been some, but very few, in the court of exchequer during that period. Hence he inferred, that tithes were paid at present in an easy and inoffensive manner, and that no new regulations were necessary. The necessary effect of the bill would be an increase of suits, and additional difficulties to the proprietor in the exercise of his rights. Things went on smoothly enough already, and any regulations upon the subject were not at present required. He well knew, that his learned friend was actuated by no unworthy or sinister motives. It was known, however, that opinions hostile to tithes were abroad, and it was not impossible that something of this kind might be connected with the present application.

The effect of the measure would inevitably tend to weaken the security of property and the House ought maturely to consider that attacks upon it were always begun where it was conceived to be most vulnerable, and in subjects where prejudices against it prevailed. A memorable example of this occurred in another country. In France, first the tithes of the clergy were attacked; the property of the church was then all seized; the manor rights of proprietors were next attacked; titles and succession followed; property was the next object of plunder; till scenes of injustice and disorder ensued, which struck at the repose and tranquillity of Europe. He therefore must oppose the farther progress of the bill.

Mr. Serjeant Adair said, that with regard to the principle of his learned friend, that no respect ought to be shown to religious scruples where they went to affect property, he could not agree with him to the extent in which it had been stated. He thought that some respect ought to be shown to religious scruples which might be considered as absurd, though they involved this consequence; and that they might be the object of that good-natured toleration which his learned friend mentioned. His learned friend said, that to such scruples the legislature ought not at all to yield. He admitted that the legis lature ought not so far to yield to them as to lessen the security of property; but alterations in the laws which tended to afford ease to the person who entertained the scruple, without injuring the property which it regarded, he would contend, were wise, just, and humane. An expression in the act of king William, on which this measure was founded, had been quoted by his learned friend. The conduct of the parliament, by which that act had been passed, it would appear, was more liberal than their language. The scruples of the Quakers were called

66

pretended." He believed that those scruples were perfectly real. They led to suffering and to difficulty. The hardships they produced were a pledge of their sineerity. Were they of a kind which the interest of the parties might suggest, they certainly ought not to be encouraged. Such, however, was the liberality of feeling which actuated that parliament, that they yielded to scruples which they called pretended. What, then, should be their conduct when they believed the scruples to be real? His

learned friend had supposed a great number of pretended scruples. There was one which was designed to raise alarm in the minds of the country gentlemen. It was stated as a possible case, that farmers might, from some pretended scruple, refuse to pay their rent. But for this the law had already provided the very remedy which the bill meant to introduce. By this, those who should take such a scruple into their heads, would be treated just like those who refuse to pay their rent without any scruple. The summary remedy, by distress, the law already afforded. His learned friend said, how was it possible to distinguish between pretended and real scruples?. He would answer, by inquiry whether the scruples were favourable or hostile to the interest of the parties. It was stated that the Quaker had an interest in the scruples he professed. He could not conceive, however, what interest could prompt a man to profess scruples which, if maintained, led to imprisonment for life, or to a suit for a few shillings, which would raise the expense to thirty times the original demand. While such was the case, he would leave it to his learned friend to explain the inconsistency, and to reconcile the interest with the scruple. Notwithstanding what had been said, he was still of opinion that the measure would be for the benefit of the tithe-holder. It was in fact balancing property against personal liberty. The tithe-holder would be enabled to recover his claim, instead of merely obtaining the imprisonment of the Quaker for life. His learned friend seemed to infer, that the bill would give the holder a lawsuit instead of his demand. What, however, was the case at present? If the Quaker is either conscientious or obstinate, an expensive and tedious suit is the consequence. By the present bill no suit would be necessary; the demand would be recovered in a mode similar to distress. Was it no benefit to the holder, that a great deal of time and expense was saved in the recovery of his claim? Was it no advantage that he got his property instead of the person? Was it no benefit to the Quaker that he escaped the calamity of imprisonment for life, which might now be his fate? Instead of the bodies of seven obstinate or conscientious men, the tithe-holder would be able, in two days, by a summary and cheap mode of proceeding, to recover his money. Whatever prejudice and alarm might at

[ocr errors]

present exist among the clergy with regard to the effect of this bill, he was convinced it would be overcome by the House; and that after a fair experiment of its operation for a limited time, the clergy themselves would join with the Quakers in their wishes for its renewal. His learned friend asked, if the Quakers petitioned for the relief contained in this bill? To this he answered, they did not: the Quakers had petitioned for relief as to the imprisonment of their persons. In his situation, as a member of parliament, he was to consider what was wise and proper to be done; not what was agreeable to the wishes of the petitioners. The Quakers were not answerable for what the bill contained; he alone was responsible for its contents. It was said, that the remedy should be prompt and efficacious. This was the very object of the bill; for at present, if the Quaker was obstinate, no court could enable the holder to recover his tithes, while under this bill the claim might easily be made good. He was sorry to hear that opinions hostile to tithes were abroad. For his own part, he thought the clergy ought to be well provided for. If any opinions hostile to tithes existed, were they not more likely to be removed by the display of mild, cheap, and expeditious modes of levying, than by cruel, tedious and expensive proceedings? He thought the bill would be beneficial to all parties in

terested.

The Solicitor General maintained, that no grievances of the nature complained of existed, because there did not exist those scruples of conscience from which those grievances were supposed to have their origin. He defied the learned gentleman to adduce such proofs as should satisfy the House, that any oppression had been used against the Quakers. For the last twenty years there had been none imprisoned for conscience sake: for the York case did not fall within that description. If a bill could be framed, such as those would wish who had merely pretended scruples of conscience, and whose real object was to elude the payment of a just and legal due, it would be such a bill as was now presented. In Quakers of respectability, he had never found any of those rigid scruples. If a Quaker subjected himself to perpetual imprisonment, he brought himself into that situation, exactly in the same manner as a litigious man did, who obstinately maintained a

nity.

suit, and overwhelmed himself with costs. as in no respect entitled to more priviThat such consequences should be pre-leges than any other class of the commuvented, if possible, he admitted; and he wished a mode could be devised which might extend to all persons in that situation. The principle of the bill seemed to be, that the person should be exonerated and the property only liable; but of all security for the payment of debts, that which gave the power of taking hold of the person was the most efficacious. He objected to the bill, as it tended to shake the principle of all processes for the recovery of debts; but he did not object to that part of it which went to render the affirmation of Quakers admissible in criminal as well as civil cases.

Mr. Richards thought the bill unnecessaryand inconvenient, because it went to alter the law of the land. How could any question of property be a subject of religious scruple, which could exist only in matters of faith? The same scruples of conscience forbad Quakers to pay taxes; yet these they were ordered to pay by their elders. That man could not have much conscience or honesty, who withheld from another a debt which he knew was by law his due. He did not think there existed among them such scruples as had been stated.

Mr. Wilberforce said, that the gentlemen who opposed the bill praised the statute of king William, which proceeded on the same principle. If they thought so highly of a system of terror, why did they not act in conformity to their own principle? Either they ought to move for the repeal of the provisions of the statute of king William, or they ought to support the present bill for the purpose of adopt ing them to their full extent. He adverted to the illiberal language that had been held with respect to Quakers, whom he believed to be actuated by scruples the most conscientious: they had fully evinced their integrity by their conduct during the period of a hundred years, and had received proofs of the regard and protection of the legislature at the best period of our history.

Mr. Fraser reprobated the bill, as tending to throw odium upon the established church. The Quakers were a body, who evinced the utmost obstinacy and inveteracy in opposition to the laws. They never went to law, but had a mode of deciding their own disputes without any application to courts of justice. They were a body of men whom he considered

Mr. Burton said, that in a former parliament he had, from a tenderness which he felt for every conscientious scruple, and from a supposition that those of the Quakers were sincere, supported the bill. He then thought the Quakers oppressed: he had now reason to believe they were not. In the last 22 years, only three suits against Quakers, and, since the time of queen Anne, only seven suits, had gone so far as a hearing, and then generally there was a plea of a modus, which would still be brought into the ecclesiastical court, even if the bill should pass. The persons imprisoned at York were there for costs; and even these might have been released upon the insolvent act, if they had not chosen, perhaps for the purposes of this bill, and probably with sufficient recompence from their brethren, to remain there under the character of martyrs. As the bill would enable the Quakers to oppress the tithe-owners, he could not give it his support.

The question being put, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair, the House divided :

[merged small][merged small][merged small][ocr errors][merged small][ocr errors][merged small][merged small]

And the numbers being equal, Mr. Speaker said, that he would not, by his vote, prevent the House from then resolving itself into a committee, pursuant to their order, for the purpose of again considering the bill in question, and therefore he declared himself with the yeas. So it was resolved in the affirmative, and the House resolved itself into the said committee.

March 6. The order of the day being read for going into a committee on the bill, and the question being put, "That the Speaker do now leave the chair,"

Mr. Pierrepont said, he had given the bill his entire attention, and the result was, a conviction that it would be attended with the most pernicious consequences.

Mr. Serjeant Adair trusted, that the bill would be suffered to pass through the present stage, before any serious opposition was offered to it.

The Solicitor General said, he would oppose the bill in every stage, because it was calculated to pick the pockets of one set of men, in order to gratify the pretended scruples of another.

The Attorney General said, he at first entertained sentiments in favour of the bill, but upon mature investigation, he was inclined to give it his negative. The House divided:

Tellers.

YEAS Mr. Serjeant Adair {Mr. Hobhouse

NOES Mr. Fraser

Mr. Pierrepont

[ocr errors]

12

28

Resolved, That the House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee.

Chancellor, lord President, duke of
Portland, marquis Cornwallis, earl
Spencer, earl of Liverpool, lord
Grenville, Mr. Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer.

cellor of the exchequer; stating, That from
"Upon the representation of the chan-

the result of the information which he has received, and of the inquiries which it has been his duty to make respecting the effect of the unusual demands for Specie, that have been made upon the metropolis, in consequence of ill-founded, or exaggerated alarms, in different parts of the country; it appears, that unless some measure is immediately taken, there may be reason to apprehend a want of a sufficient supply of cash, to answer the exigencies of the public service: it is the unanimous opiThe King's Message respecting the unu-nion of the board, That it is indispensasual Demand of Specie.] Feb. 27. Mr. bly necessary for the public service, that Pitt presented the following Message from the directors of the Bank of England his Majesty: should forbear issuing any cash in payment, until the sense of parliament can be taken on that subject, and the proper measures adopted thereupon, for maintaining the means of circulation, and sup

"GEORGE R.

"His Majesty thinks it proper to communicate to the House of Commons, without delay, the measure adopted to obviate the effects which might be occa-porting the public and commercial credit sioned by the unusual demand of specie lately made from different parts of the country on the metropolis.

"The peculiar nature and exigency of the case appeared to require, in the first instance, the measure contained in the order of council, which his majesty has directed to be laid before the House. In recommending this important subject to the immediate and serious attention of the House of Commons, his majesty relies, with the utmost confidence, on the experienced wisdom and firmness of his parliament, for taking such measures as may be best calculated to meet any temporary pressure, and to call forth, in the most effectual manner, the extensive re

sources of his kingdoms, in support of their public and commercial credit, and in defence of their dearest interests. G. R."

Order of Council respecting the Stoppage of Cash Payments at the Bank.] Mr. Pitt also presented, by his Majesty's Command, the following

MINUTE OF COUNCIL. "At the Council Chamber, Whitehall, the 26th of February 1797; By the lords of his Majesty's most honourable privy council; Present, Lord

of the kingdom, at this important conjuncture. And it is ordered, That a copy of this minute be transmitted to the directors of the Bank of England; and they are hereby required on the grounds of the exigency of the case, to conform thereto, until the sense of parliament can be taken as aforesaid.

(Signed) "W. FAWKENER." Mr. Pitt said, it was his intention at present merely to move, that the message He took that opportunity, however, of be taken into consideration to-morrow. dress which he meant to move, he should giving notice, that in addition to the adpropose that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the outstanding engagements of the Bank, and of the means they had of making good those engagements. When he gave notice of such a proposition, rendered necessary by ment, he had no difficulty in declaring it the particular circumstances of the mosmallest suspicion could justly be enterto be his firm opinion, that not the tained of the solidity of the Bank; on the contrary, he believed that its resources never were more abundant. Another proposition which he meant to submit to the deliberation of parliament, was to declare by law, that the engagements of

the Bank at present outstanding, or which may hereafter be contracted to a certain amount, are secured by the public, and that notes instead of cash will be taken by the public in payment of the sums due to them by the Bank. This was a measure which he had no doubt would terd very much to confirm the solidity of the Bank capital-an object, the national importance of which could not be disputed. He was convinced, that when the circumstances of the times were duly considered, the House would join with him in opinion, that the Bank ought to be restrained from making any payments in cash, except in certain cases. He then moved, That his majesty's message be taken into consideration to

morrow.

answering these engagements in that way formed the difficulty of the bank. He had no difficulty in assenting to what the minister had stated upon that subject, as far as payment was to be made to government; but when he came to reflect upon an order in council, and on the obedience which he saw the bank disposed to pay to that order, the subject became alarming. The bank say they will pay government in bank notes, and that warrants on dividends shall be paid in like manner. The warrants on dividends were the interest on the national debt. Now parliament having passed an act, binding the bank, to pay the warrants on dividends, not in bank notes, but in money, this was a very alarming proposition. It might lead to the most dreadful ill consequences to every individual in this country; nay, it might put an end to its existence, as a powerful nation. The House would do nothing useful on the subject, if it did not institute an inquiry into the whole of the circumstances that had led us to this dreadful situation.

Mr. Alderman Combe asked, whether bank notes were to be taken only by the receivers of the revenue, or were to become a legal tender in all money transac tions.

Mr. Pitt said, that, in the first instance, he meant only to propose that they should be taken on the part of the public. After the inquiry into the circumstances of the bank, the legislature would be enabled to judge whether the remedy to the extent at present supposed was sufficient.

Mr. Fox said, that he could not, at this eventful crisis, allow a moment to pass without saying a few words. As to what might or might not be advisable to be done, he should now give no opinion. The right hon. gentleman had said, he should move for a committee of inquiry into the circumstances of the bank. To a motion for such an enquiry he should have no objection; it might be useful as far as it went. But he owned he saw the propriety of that House making an inquiry to a much greater extent. They should inquire, not only into the circumstances of the bank, but also into the circumstances which led to the present embarrassment. They should be possessed of all the measures that led to this most extraordinary scheme-a scheme which no man could think of without shuddering. With regard to the propriety of aiding the security of the bank notes, by pledging the faith of government to them there appeared to him nothing objectionable in such a proposition. If the minister meant to make bank notes legal payment from individuals to the public, that was a point liable of course to discussion, but against which he did not see the same objection as if he took the question in another view, for it would be only matter of policy to a limited expense. But if he meant to make bank notes legal payment from the Debate on Mr. Sheridan's Motion to prepublic to the individual, it was a measure vent the Exportation of Specie to the Emwhich the House could not think of with-peror &c.] Mr. Sheridan rose to express out seeing that it must shake the very his surprise that the consideration of the foundation of public credit. The minis- order in council should be put off for a ter set forth the difficulties of the bank single day. In the first part of the order to answer, by payments in cash, their out- he found nothing but an opinion respectstanding engagements. The means of ing the circumstances of the bank, as

Alderman Combe asked, whether it was his opinion that this remedy would be resorted to in the end.

Mr. Pitt said, he had no opinion upon the subject.

Mr. Fox asked, if he disclaimed the opinion.

Mr. Pitt replied, that he said nothing about it at all.

The message, and also the order in council, were ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow.

« PreviousContinue »