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tions. We are sometimes held responsible by our own press for Soviet propaganda directed against us. So both of us have a responsibility. As I see it, there are two things we must accomplish:

-How to implement the Summit agreements.

-New departures to give even more momentum to what was started at the Summit.

These are the two tasks before us as we proceed.

Brezhnev (smoking and appearing thoughtful): So it is. I agree. So let us start acting.

Kissinger: First, one practical matter. I will work this out with your Foreign Minister if you prefer, but there are certain topics to discuss. Because of our peculiar way of running our government, I would like to have our Ambassador at one or two of our meetings. If we know what subjects will come up, then we might be able to select some of them for him to attend. (Gromyko and Brezhnev whisper.)

I might tell the Secretary General that after November we intend to simplify our method of government so that may simplify his task in the future. We never had a chance to thank you in May for the delicacy with which you handled our peculiarities.

Brezhnev (Smiling): Your internal setup is your affair. The present method is OK. If you worsen it, I will be troubled.

Kissinger: We will try to improve it.

Brezhnev: Don't worsen it. So far we have had a good relation. You twist things around in such a complex way, that you are never out of options. But if you channel different things and it is a river, it can flood.

Kissinger: We will have this channel. It is just that we may be able to save you some additional effort.

Brezhnev: Good. Then let us move to more concrete things. What do we start with?

Kissinger: Since Under Secretary Lynn is here why don't we begin with economics. Then we can make an agenda for other topics. He can work out the details with whomever you designate. Then before we leave we will work out an economic arrangement. After that we will leave it up to you.

Brezhnev: Let us begin with economics. I agree. Let us make Mr. Lynn's destiny more easy. Why make such a burden on one so young. He will be free to drink vodka and whiskey with you the rest of the time.

Lynn: That is a delightful prospect.

Brezhnev: Dr. Kissinger wants to escape discussion of this complex subject.

(The interpreter then inserted that the Secretary General was concerned that Dr. Kissinger would not find any whiskey in the guest house. But the Secretary General said he could find you some moonshine.)

Lynn: We had a good discussion on that in the Crimea.?
Brezhnev: You have no objection to Manzhulo sitting in.
Kissinger: No.
(Alexandrov leaves the room; Manzhulo enters.)

Brezhnev: I asked Alexandrov to get some tea and coffee and food because Dr. Kissinger is more condescending with meat patties in front of him. Last time you added only two kilograms to your waistline. That is not enough.

Kissinger: Not enough? My suits don't fit.

Brezhnev: I have that problem and I am always having to take my coats either in or out. My tailor always leaves some room so he can either put more on or take it off.

Kissinger: I have tried to lose some weight but I will put it on here.
Gromyko: You look thin.

Brezhnev: You did not spend enough time at the Olympic games to get some weight off. Did you have a good discussion with Brandt?

Kissinger: We discussed the Security treaty, bilateral arrangements, membership in the UN, the FRG and Berlin.” I am prepared to discuss this with you sometime during my stay here.

Brezhnev: Thank you. I am very glad to discuss that with you. On my part I will give you our considerations relating to those issues.

Kissinger: I don't know how the General Secretary wants to proceed. Do you want my thinking on what has transpired? Or should we begin by discussing these papers? Whatever you prefer.

Brezhnev: Any way you see fit. As I see it, the agenda includes questions such as MFN and lend lease. These are two major issues. It also includes questions such as the future economic relations between our two countries, various economic principles and specific matters in the spirit of your discussions with Ambassador Dobrynin. And there are also matters such as the gas deposits at Tyumen and Yakutsak. We

3

2 See Document 21.

Kissinger met Brandt on September 10 at the Chancellor's villa in Feldafing outside Munich; Bahr and Hillenbrand also attended the meeting. Telegram 1583 from Berlin, September 12, transmitted an account of the discussion. (National Archives, RG 59, Central Files 1970–73, POL GER W-US)

a

can comment on these concrete matters. Also we can discuss the granting of credits, sales of equipment and in addition we can discuss various observations and anything you have to say on this subject. Also, I will want to hear your views about the political aspect of economic cooperation. You might also discuss the reaction of your business community to our improving relations. Kissinger: I have a few observations on the spirit of our discussions

a and then we can turn to concrete measures and the specific points you have raised Mr. General Secretary. Our two countries have a curious economic relationship. We are the two largest economies in the world and yet we have insignificant relations with respect to trade. They are insignificant in relation to our size and political importance. More important than any specific measure is to make a fundamental change in our overall economic and commercial ties. We would like to proceed on as broad a front as possible and not exhaust ourselves on any particular topic. That is why we believe it desirable to discuss a number of issues such as lend lease, credits, MFN, trade and gas. We hope to get all of these issues settled more or less simultaneously, at least in principle. Let me explain our attitude toward the lend lease agreement. We know what you suffered in World War II. We know that the fact that you have to pay interest to pay for that is morally repugnant to you, as the General Secretary explained so eloquently at the Summit.

Brezhnev: I tried to be as lucid as possible with Peterson. I trust he brought to the President my views. I talked to him man to man.

Kissinger: You were very impressive. We have taken what you have said extremely seriously. Our problem is this year. Immediately upon settlement of lend lease we would make $150 million available as credits on the Kama River project with a $500 million line of credit by the end of 1974. Legislation will be submitted to the Congress immediately in the new session for MFN. In addition, the President will put his prestige behind not just the gas project but also there will be other joint projects for national resources, a whole range of projects. We must create a climate where Congressional opinion is receptive. In that regard, I want to call your attention to this critical lead editorial on wheat sales (passes a copy of the Washington Post editorial of August 20, 1972 to Secretary General Brezhnev). (Tab A)

Gromyko: It is an article from the Washington Post.

* See footnote 4, Document 19.

5 Tab A, a copy of the editorial, “Wheat Sales to Russia,” Washington Post, August 20, 1972, p. C8, is attached but not printed.

Kissinger: Half of a percent amounts to $2 million a year over 30 years. This is a tiny fraction of what we want to make available to you on credit. For this reason we want a lump sum—that is a global sum with somewhat confused interest rates. This will help us in our presentation to Congress. It will appear higher than it actually may be and can be used as a basis for credit for MFN and for gas projects on which I will talk to you at much greater length. $500 million does not include any credits that might be available to you on the gas project. These might be given in addition.

Brezhnev: That is just a newspaper, not the government policy.

Kissinger: Yes, but it is significant because it came from a liberal newspaper. It is the liberal groups who normally favor expanding trade and we will need the support of these groups to get passage of MFN. They influence our Senators whose support we need to expand our trade relationships. So it is not an insignificant newspaper in this respect as your Ambassador will no doubt confirm.

Brezhnev: Tomorrow I can instruct Pravda to criticize the Ministry of Trade for paying too high an interest rate on grain. It is not a side issue, but let's talk about the terms of lend lease, when we will sign lend lease and when we will sign MFN. We are people of business and if you have a like attitude we can make policy. (Pounds his book emphatically while making this point.)

Kissinger: If you have read editorials in the Washington Post over the weeks you must get the idea that we can't instruct them.

Brezhnev: Have another sweet. Let's not get away from the spirit.
Kissinger: I agree. Let's forget about it.

I Brezhnev: One of the reasons I took a three week trip to Siberia was to get away from all sorts of articles. It was a very great pleasure this year. The harvest there was very good. I visited five areas. People there assured me we would have 1.6 million poods of grain. (One pood equals 36.11 pounds.) This will be mostly wheat but also some buckwheat. The harvest has been good in these areas and should ease our domestic situation considerably. The Volga area was hit hard but Siberia is coming to the rescue. We seldom have a year where all areas are good or all areas are bad. But if you take statistics over a considerable period, you hardly ever get one area that demonstrates uniformity throughout

Brezhnev: The Volga in the central belt is usually the best and that in Siberia not as good. This year, it is vice versa. Kazakhstan is the danger area in this regard. The rain fall is not normally high there, but it is good this year. They are producing one billion poods of grain and it is only the second time in history in this virgin land that we have reached that high a level. And finally at my last destination I had a conference with economic experts on crops in the five central Asian districts which mostly produce cotton and will reach a level of 7,150,000 tons of cotton this year. This is an all time record of great importance for our economy. Generally during my trip it was very interesting for me to meet the local peoples and leaders. I gained a great deal concerning local people and personalities (gestures, smiling). Only the time differences bother me. Four hours after breakfast one wants to go to sleep.

Kissinger: You have the same problem I have in going around the world. It is very tiring.

(Gromyko and Dobrynin comment on seven or eight hours time difference between Moscow and Washington.)

Brezhnev: In my experience once I had to go to Vladivostok to make an award. They scheduled a meeting for twelve noon but for me it was 4:00 a.m. I just could not get awake and I didn't even leave the country.

Kissinger: Our plan is to answer your questions and to make an agreement in principle during this visit. You could then send a delegation to complete trade and lend lease agreements. This could be done during the first week in October. On Export-Import credit, we could find you eligible and in October we would make available $150 million of credit for the Kama River project. This fall we would have a Presidential statement on the national interest of the United States in a gas agreement. We would also view sympathetically Export-Import credit. We would set up a joint task force on gas to coordinate activities. Finally, we would encourage the maximum private investment. We would also encourage participation by other countries.

By the way, I was talking to David Rockefeller about mobilizing capital this fall. Legislation on MFN status will be submitted to the Congress in January. A trade agreement is necessary in order to submit the MFN legislation. Certainly, the whole package would be completed in two years and maybe by next year. All of this package can be completed, at least all of those actions which come under the jurisdiction of the Executive Branch. These can be done this year. This is our concrete program to answer your questions. This is what the President will do this year and we will wrap up the whole thing next year.

(Brezhnev writes note to Dobrynin; Dobrynin consults with him.)

There is no sense submitting MFN to the Congress this year. There are only three weeks left and our control will be better in the next Congress if we win the election, which is the probable outcome. The new Congress will begin to organize itself in January.

(Brezhnev consults with Gromyko.)

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