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and the United States, that is, trade and a long-term economic agreement, and the question of fulfillment of the promise made by the United States regarding MFN. And also I would like very briefly to hear whether the United States is interested at all in cooperating with us in energy. Because others are-Europe, Japan.
Kissinger: Let me deal with energy first.
Kissinger: In principle, we are prepared to cooperate with the Soviet Union across the whole range of the energy problem. We maintain our interest in certain new projects we already discussed with you. And we are also prepared to discuss with you certain new issues that have come up in recent years. Specifically, we are willing to cooperate with you on developing alternative sources to oil. We are doing a lot of work on it already. On other research and development we are devoting over $23 billion over the next five years.
Brezhnev: Could you be more specific? What do you mean by al
Kissinger: Liquifying of coal, for example. Utilization of other sources. Matters of this kind, which we are working on on a large scale. Oil shale, and how to make it more economical. Conservation of energy. Matters of this kind. But we have proposed that some of your experts get together with ours and at the Summit we could sign a long-term energy agreement. And we would be prepared to cooperate with the Soviet Union. And as I said, we are already engaged in a major effort quite on our own, but we would be prepared to undertake joint projects.
Brezhnev: Are you continuing or have you stopped your dialogue with the Japanese about developing Siberian sources of oil?
Kissinger: To my knowledge we are continuing it and we continue to support it.
Brezhnev: Good. In very general terms, Dr. Kissinger, is the question of deals on a compensating basis of interest to you?
Kissinger: Along the lines of our discussions last year?
Brezhnev: Exactly. Just for example-it is for the scientists and businessmen to go into the details-some U.S. company extends credit to us for building a pulp mill to turn out paper of the highest quality and we pay you back with supplies of the end product.
Brezhnev: It will then depend on the exact terms agreed on, whether we pay you back in five years, ten years. If we agree on a five-year repayment, 80 percent of the product; if ten years, then 100 percent of the product.
Kissinger: I understand.
Brezhnev: Another example: The United States supplies us with certain material to be used in, say, smelting of nickel or tin, and we pay you back by the end product. It is a very energy-consuming process. This way we save your energy, which is money in your pocket.
Kissinger: As a concept we will support it. We will have to examine each case. We will strongly encourage our companies to cooperate in this. Where credits are required, we are in principle prepared to increase credits. The same group trying to stop MFN is also trying to stop the credits. So we can deal with both of these problems hopefully simultaneously, along the lines of our discussion yesterday.5
Brezhnev: You know we have this agreement with Armand Hammer. He supplies equipment and we pay him back with ammonia, which the United States is in need of. I would imagine his company has examined the situation and wouldn't agree to anything that would lose.
There are many such projects. I was just asking for your general
Kissinger: Our assessment is positive, and we will use all our influence with the banks to encourage it.
Brezhnev: I lay such emphasis on this question not because we are just dying for lack of such deals, but because it is in our mutual interest. Kissinger: It is in our interests because it links our two countries together and it is a concrete expression ...
Brezhnev: I don't want to elaborate on any other subjects.
Scientific and Technical Cooperation
Brezhnev: On scientific and technical cooperation, we have given you our drafts and you have ample food for thought when you get home.
I feel we have exchanged some very constructive views, and we should now make an effort not to waste time on questions of second-rate importance, and more attention to what we have spent the last two days on. Then President Nixon will be armed with documents which will be truly worthy of his visit.
Kissinger: Mr. General Secretary, may I raise two questions? One is, the President will be prepared to agree to a second U.S.-Soviet space mission once the first one is completed.
Brezhnev: I can say in advance that is more than likely to evoke a favorable response.
Kissinger: So we will have Mr. Fletcher, head of our Space Agency, get in touch with the appropriate officials.
5 See Documents 167 and 168.
Kissinger: Should we also have our people begin talking about an energy agreement? Or is that premature?
Brezhnev: I don't think it would be premature.
Kissinger: So we should.
Brezhnev: In several days time, a big delegation from here, headed by Minister [K. I.] Galanshin, is going there at Kendall's invitation, on the paper and pulp industry.
Kissinger: [To Dobrynin] If you keep us informed and you need governmental support, we will do whatever is necessary.
Gromyko: We will inform you of the exact dates.
Kissinger: You can count on the support of our government.
Brezhnev: Dr. Kissinger, these last couple of days we have been issuing communiqués to the press about what we have been doing. Tomorrow you are leaving. We ought to issue some kind of communiqué. My colleagues say they have handed a draft to your people.
Kissinger: I have just gotten it this minute.
Brezhnev: The short press release about today's meeting is already agreed on with your people.
Kissinger: As long as it says "constructive and businesslike." [Laughter]
Dobrynin: It has "more constructive than yesterday."
Kissinger: As long as it is in the same order as yesterday.
Gromyko: Constructive and businesslike.
Kissinger: That is not without merit.
[Kissinger and Sonnenfeldt edit the Soviet draft.]
Dobrynin: [To Dr. Kissinger] Do we have to meet today, or tomorrow?
Kissinger: Tomorrow. But it is not subject to negotiation. I gave you the categories. The numbers.
Brezhnev: A piece of paper with that factual material I promised you-my colleagues will give it to you tomorrow morning. Kissinger: That is all right.
[There was a brief break from 8:43 to 8:46.]
Kissinger: We have studied the communiqué and have really no substantive questions. Only a few stylistic suggestions.
6 Konstantin Ivanovich Galanshin, Soviet Minister of Pulp and Paper Industry.
Brezhnev: I really haven't read it.
Kissinger: Does Korniyenko draft for both sides now? Did you know he is joining my staff for a year? On the basis of equal torture for both sides. We will trade Sonnenfeldt for Korniyenko if you will get an additional man who can read upside down.
[Brezhnev goes out for a few minutes, returns.]
Kissinger: [To Gromyko] I will talk to the British about that European Security Conference. I will send a message to you on Friday.? Gromyko: Good.
Kissinger: I think it is still bureaucracy. I will talk to CallaghanR tomorrow. They probably haven't had time to study it.
Brezhnev: Really, Dr. Kissinger, I find the thought rather dull that you are leaving tomorrow.
Kissinger: I always enjoy our meetings.
One possibility that occurred to me, Mr. General Secretary. If we make some progress on SALT, I would be prepared to return for a couple of days in May.
Brezhnev: You know, I was thinking about that. But I decided not to mention it. But I really thought we might need one more meeting, to finalize or almost finalize some of the documents. I didn't think it would be on SALT, because I thought we had already settled that. Kissinger: What are 3,000 MIRVs among friends? [Laughter] But still we have to write down the small print.
Brezhnev: I don't think I will live to see the day when we have 300 MIRVS in our favor.
Gromyko: To make things fair, we should be given 1,100 and you
Kissinger: You will end up with more warheads. We will write down our considerations, because I really think I haven't had a chance to give them to you. Our analysis of the problem.
Gromyko: Whenever you give us something in writing it looks very negative. Conditioned reflexes.
Brezhnev: What we gave you was really our final position. It means we are really giving you the maximum. I really should be fired from the Council of National Defense and all my other posts. You just think it over, how far I have gone. I for one-you absolutely never expected me to say what I have done. We have completed our discussions in a friendly way; I am sure you didn't expect me to go so far.
7 March 29. No message was found.
8 James Callaghan, British Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs from March 1974.
[Laughter] When you tell President Nixon, I am sure he will give you a third post, in addition to the two you have.
[Both sides confer. Kissinger and Sonnenfeldt study the draft communiqué.]
Kissinger: What time does this have to be released tomorrow?
Gromyko: We could maybe give it to the radio and TV tomorrow night and publish it in Pravda the next day.
Kissinger: I agree.
Brezhnev: There is an aspect to it. I am conducting these talks as leader of the Party, therefore the Party paper should publish it first. Kissinger: Let's just establish a time.
Gromyko: 7:00 Moscow time.
Kissinger: All right. We will give it to our press.
Dobrynin: Going to Washington?
Kissinger: No, to London. 5:00 London time, 7:00 local time [here], which is noon Washington time.
Brezhnev: Both radio and TV at 7:00. Then the day after tomorrow's edition of Pravda.
Kissinger: It is good for us too, because it makes evening TV.
Brezhnev: This might disappoint you, but I have no intention of considering any new proposals on SALT.
Kissinger: We have to now...
Brezhnev: Maybe something will come out of the information problem.
Kissinger: Exactly. If we can do something with the information problem. This is the direction my mind is now working.
Brezhnev: I believe you. And I hope so.
Thank you Dr. Kissinger, and I thank all your colleagues for the spirit that reigned during these discussions. Please give my highest regards to President Nixon for all my Comrades. My best wishes to him and my hope that his visit will be a good one.
Kissinger: On behalf of my colleagues, and especially my children, I would like to thank you for the spirit of these talks and your hospitality to us.
9 Attached but not printed. For the text of the communiqué, issued on March 28, see Department of State Bulletin. It was also published in The New York Times, March 29, 1974,