May I ask, do you have any travel plans, Mr. Foreign Minister?

Gromyko: I do not completely exclude the possibility of my having to go to visit that part of the world. And I have notably the idea expressed to you in passing, but I have no definite plans regarding the dates yet. If I were to have told you I had no plans at all, that would give you grounds to say, "Here I am alone and doing all the work and you are not active enough in cooperating to get a solution."

Kissinger: That is exactly what I would say. [Laughter]

Gromyko: So we believe there should be a joint action. I like your casual remark.

Kissinger: I think we are in any case reaching that point in our relationship where if we don't see each other for two weeks, it creates a void at least in my life. But I do believe-seriously-that working together towards the same objective is important.

Gromyko: We feel that to work in close proximity and compare views and work in close contact is more effective than to try to settle whatever differences that exist at a distance. I am gratified that you see it the same way.

But you seem to cling to Dante's figure of seven all the time. Although, of course, the figure seven is something that originated in the general area of Palestine, as a cabalistic figure.

Kissinger: The Foreign Minister seems concerned with Dante. This is the second successive meeting he has mentioned it. It is not the obvious choice of reading for a Soviet Foreign Minister.

We would be prepared, first of all, to keep you closely informed at all stages of our negotiation, and if we knew your plans, that would help us stay in touch.

As for the process, I would be prepared to consider another meeting before the process is concluded, so it is clear that it was not concluded by unilateral action. But I would like to reserve the location for later exchanges.

Gromyko: How in your view could the Geneva Peace Conference be reactivated? Are we necessarily supposed to wait for the elaboration and complete implementation of a Syrian disengagement agreement? Or can we do it to discuss other aspects of the Middle East while disengagement is going on?

Kissinger: We believe the most effective time for reactivation of Geneva is after the completion of Syrian disengagement, which we believe, with goodwill on all sides, could be done in the next month. We could exchange ideas in addition in the interim, but we believe the best time is after Syrian disengagement. Also, we would be prepared to have Ambassador Bunker meet here with Ambassador Vinogradov. Painful as it is, Ellsworth. If we can pry Bunker away from Panama. He

has an island there where he goes for weeks at a time and comes back rejuvenated.

Gromyko: I would like to know about that island. [Laughter]

I think the present situation is becoming a bit strange. We all know there are many unresolved issues, including the fundamental issues of the settlement, and our representatives are here but in substance they have no contact. We are meeting; why can't they meet and discuss the same issues?

Kissinger: I agree. We can start in a week. Of course, Ambassador Bunker is with me now. I think they could have a more extensive series of meetings a week after I return to Washington. I will return to Washington on the 10th at the latest. So starting around the 15th.

Gromyko: Please don't think we simply cannot live without these regular contacts with our American counterparts. If yours goes back to Washington all the time, we couldn't help but draw the necessary conclusions.

Kissinger: I agree. I need Ellsworth on this trip. It will be helpful because he will then have a full foundation of knowledge. Then he will have a regular series of consultations here, as near as possible to the 15th as we can make it. Is this agreeable then? Around the 15th? We will propose a firm date within the next few days, as soon as we know what is ahead of us. Between those two, and between us. I would say by Saturday1..

Gromyko: We would prefer that they meet immediately but we will take your view into consideration.

Kissinger: Between us, I will have a specific proposal by Saturday. By then I will have been in Damascus and Jerusalem. I will communicate with you by Saturday. Having in mind that it will not be purely pro forma. The most efficient way is through Washington.

Dobrynin: General Scowcroft?

Kissinger: General Scowcroft.

Gromyko: Do you have any schedule?

Kissinger: Genuinely I have no definite schedule. I will be in Amman Saturday because of the holiday in Israel—they can't work. Gromyko: You go from Damascus to Amman?

Kissinger: My tentative plan is to go to Amman from Damascus. The advantage is that I will have some idea then. I will communicate to you.

On the 4th, the Israeli Cabinet doesn't work. Therefore, the earliest I can go back to Israel to do anything is late evening, the 4th. My

4 May 4.

present plan is to go on the 5th. This is assuming no stalemate in Israel, which is not excluded. Read the Israel press: Our vote in the UN is not unanimously approved in Israel.

Gromyko: You will take a second trip to Damascus?

Kissinger: It is not excluded, but really I have not made a plan. I can tell you precisely on the 4th. I assure you now we will do nothing to surprise you or present you a fait accompli. You will know almost as soon as we do.

Dobrynin: When do you expect a meeting?

Kissinger: Maybe the middle of next week. It will take many Cabinet meetings in Israel. The best time for us to meet is when Israeli thinking has crystallized but not settled. Then we have something

concrete.

Dobrynin: The 10th?

Kissinger: Some time between the 8th and the 10th. I will communicate with you on the 4th without fail.

Could I take a five-minute break?

Gromyko: Surely.

[There was a short break, from 12:14-12:27 p.m.]

Kissinger: I propose we continue on the Middle East until lunch.
Gromyko: Yes.

Kissinger: Then we should discuss SALT after lunch. I have until 4:00, 4:30.

Gromyko: Good.

Where do you prefer to continue after lunch? Here? Or at our place?

Kissinger: Here, or we can go to your place.

Gromyko: Lunch is at what time?

Kissinger: About 1:00.

Dobrynin: To save time, we should continue here.

Kissinger: We would be delighted to have it here.

Can we speed it up?

[Mr. Sisco goes out to have the lunch arrangements speeded up.] You know, Sisco was a bartender and he won't let anyone else do the luncheon arrangements.

Atherton: He will not delegate!

Kissinger: We would do it at your place if it had some symbolic significance.

The ladies are meeting at your place, anyway. Maybe they will settle it.

Dobrynin: Something will be cooked up, literally!

Kissinger: Maybe with a great effort something will come out of our meetings. It will cost us 100 MIRVed missiles. [Laughter]

Maybe we should exchange observers-so you could attend our National Security Council meetings and we could attend your Politburo meetings. You would be amazed.

Gromyko: They urged you to accept it.

Kissinger: I am negotiating between your General Staff and our General Staff.

Vinogradov: Disengagement.

Gromyko: I heard a joke. An Army man wanted a job on the General Staff. A friend said, "You're crazy." He said, "Is that a necessary qualification to be on the General Staff?" [Laughter]

Kissinger: Our General Staff accuses you of betraying the country if you agree to ban things they didn't plan to do anyway.

As I understand it, on Saturday I will inform you first on the state of discussions, and second, I will propose what the next step might be. Bearing in mind that proximity improves our cooperation. And we then decide what next steps we might take. This is my understanding of where we stand.

The Israeli press is already starting a campaign.

[The meeting then broke up. Secretary Kissinger, Minister Gromyko and Ambassador Dobrynin went to the Secretary's suite for a private discussion.]5

5 Kissinger sent a report of his meeting to Nixon through Scowcroft on April 29. (National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Kissinger Office Files, Box 69, Country Files-Europe USSR, Dobrynin/Kissinger, Vol. 22 (January-April 1974))

177. Memorandum of Conversation1

Geneva, April 29, 1974, 12:20-1:35 p.m.

PARTICIPANTS

Andrei A. Gromyko, Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee, CPSU

and Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR

Anatoli F. Dobrynin, Soviet Ambassador to the United States

Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State and Assistant to the President for
National Security Affairs

Peter W. Rodman, NSC Staff

SUBJECTS

HAK-Gromyko Meeting in Mideast; Syrian-Israeli Disengagement; Palestinians;
Jackson Amendment

HAK-Gromyko Meeting in Mideast

Gromyko: So you will travel up to the 7th-8th-9th?

Kissinger: My present thought is I will be back on the 10th.2 But I will stop in Europe.

Gromyko: You think we might join? I am not pressing.

Kissinger: I do not exclude that we might join. I will make a definite proposal on the 4th. Between the 7th and the 10th.

Gromyko: I may go to Syria maybe one day, maybe two, maybe four. We have not agreed on any date.

It does not interfere with you, as well as your trip does not interfere with mine. If you think it would be a good idea to meet, if you will let me know.

Kissinger: Do you exclude meeting, for example, in Cyprus?

Gromyko: In Cyprus? [Thinks] You like the vegetation in Cyprus?
Kissinger: I have never been there.

Gromyko: And you like ancient ruins? In a suitable mood. Kissinger: It gets us into one of the few disputes we are not in. Gromyko: Of course, my preference would be in the Middle East, in Syria. I have not discussed it with them.

Kissinger: Nor have we.

Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Kissinger Office Files, Box 71, Country Files-Europe-USSR, Gromyko, 1974. Secret; Sensitive; Nodis. The meeting was held in the Secretary's suite in the Intercontinental Hotel. Brackets are in the original.

2 After Kissinger's departure from Geneva, he traveled to Algeria on April 29 and 30; Egypt, April 30 and May 1; Israel, May 2 and 3; Syria, May 3; Israel, May 4; Jordan, May 5 and 6; Cyprus, May 7; Saudi Arabia, May 9; and Egypt, May 9 and 10.