of leading them, by the contagion of example, to the commission of the most atrocious crimes, at which they might shudder on their first imprisonment. This was the case in all the prisons of England, with a few honourable exceptions, and pre-eminently so in that prison in the metropolis which was more immediately under the notice of the public. That prison, situated not far from the monument erected to the benevolent Howard, was a reproach to the country. The honourable gentleman then enumerated the evils resulting from the confinement, promiscuously, of persons of different ages and degrees of guilt, in the prisons and hulks, whereby the less criminal and experienced were tutored into the commission more heinous crimes, of which they were ignorant. He had never said that transportation should be altogether abolished; but he thought it cruel that any persons but those sentenced for life should be transported. In 1800, forty persons fad been transported, who had but one year of their term to expire; and ten who had but nine months were transported to New South Wales, a voyage of nine months. Even last August, two men had been transported having only two years of their term unexpired. It was cruel to send out unhappy convicts under such circumstances without providing the means of their return; it was particularly so with respect to females, and persons of feeble frames, who were unable to work their passage home. He deprecated the idea that transportation was but a summer voyage to a better climate, as it might have a very grievous effect if such an impression were to be felt by magistrates throughout the coun try, intrusted with the administration of the laws. The system of penitentiaries had been successfully tried in America, and had produced the most beneficial results in England wherever it had been tried. The government of Ireland deserved the highest praise for its encouragement of this system; and if the British government, with the experience of Nottingham, and the example of America and Ireland, should still adhere to the present system, it would merit as much censure as the Irish government merited honour. He should therefore move "That an humble address be presented to his majesty, that he would be graciously pleased to give directions for carrying into effect so much of the 19th of the king as relates to the erecting penitentiary prisons, and also to carry into execution the act of the 34th of his reign." Mr. secretary Ryder said, that when he last induced his honourable friend to withdraw this motion, it was under the expectation that he should be able to procure complete information upon the subject. That information he had since not obtained, in consequence of the absence from London of a gentleman who had applied himself laboriously to the consideration of such subjects. He had inquired into the circumstance of the persons transported, as alluded to by his honourable and learned friend; and found that they had conducted themselves in exciting the other convicts to commotion, and assisting in the escape of three that had been recommended for transportation. Mr. Bathurst said he should propose a middle course, and that was, that the house should give a distinct pledge to take the question into consideration early next session. C 3 Mr. Mr. Wilberforce regretted that a suggestion of his on a former occasion for reprinting the report on this subject had not been attended to; because, if that report had been in the hands of gentlemen, it would be impossible for them not to agree to the motion of his honourable friend. He was aware of the arduous duties which his right honourable friend had to perform; but when he recollected how often this admirable plan had been near being carried into execution, he could not reconcile himself to any delay of the motion. The solicitor-general preferred the middle course. Mr. Whitbread supported the motion. He said that the opinions of Mr. Howard, with whom he had been intimately connected from his infancy, had been misunderstood. Mr. Howard never thought of solitary imprisonment as a punishment which ought to be continued for more than a very short time. The question was then put, and the motion was lost by a majority of 69 to 52. CHAPTER II Debate in the House of Commons on Mr. Fuller's Motion for the abolishing of Sinecures. Mr. Bankes's Bill to prevent the giving away of Places in reversion. Debate on Mr. Whitbread's Motion for the Production of Papers supposed to bave been presented to the King by the Earl of Chatham: His Majesty's Answer.—Mr. Grattan on a Petition from some Irish Roman Catholics.-Mr. Fuller's Outrage in the House of Commons :-committed to the Custody of the Serjeant at Arms; his Apology; and Debate on Mr. Perceval's Motion to discharge him.-The Speaker's Reprimand of Mr. Fuller. OUSE of Commons, Feb. 12. properly granted. He observed HMr. Fuller, in rising to make that such offices were either neces the motion of which he had given notice, relative to sinecure places, felt it impossible for him to impress the house more strongly with the necessity of adopting it, than by quoting a passage from the works of that great law authority, lord Hale. The honourable member then read an extract from the work to which he referred, and which not only condemned the practice of granting such offices, but enumerated the particular offices so im sary or not necessary. If not necessary, why should they be continued? and if necessary, was it to be supposed that such a man as lord Hale would have so expressly stated his opinion against them? It was his opinion, that not only the practice of granting places in reversion was improper, but that the crown ought to put in force, for the interest of the public, the resumption of all such grants. By such measures neither the crown or the people people would lose any thing. Whilst the present system existed, it was vain to expect what had been proclaimed by the great Alfred, that justice should be carried to the doors of every man. It was not his wish or intention, in bringing forward this motion, to strike against or break down the influence of the crown. On the contrary, he was glad to perceive that the influence of the crown had increased in proportion as the corruption of the morals of the people had been progressive. This accession to the influence of the crown was necessary to the preservation of the balance of the constitution. But this formed no part of the proposition he had to bring forward. His object was to prevent the avaricious part of the aristocracy from providing for the younger branches of their families, by procuring for them sinecure appointments. It appeared from the appendix of the report of the committee of finance, that three hundred and fifty thousand pounds of the public money were enjoyed in that way; and it was obvious that the whole of that sum might be saved to the nation, if such places were to be abolished after the death of the present possessors. He did not wish to take from his sovereign the power or the means of rewarding meritorious services; but he thought it necessary to the interests of a country ornamented and distinguished by the exalted genius of Nelson, and the divine intellect of Mr. Pitt, that its resources should be properly husbanded, and disposed of only in remuneration of national services. He should therefore move for leave to bring in a bill for abolishing sinecure offices. On the question being put, oppose the motion of the honourable gentleman, but to state his opinion, that it would have been better if the honourable gentleman had deferred his motion till the report of the committee should enable the house to come to some decision upon the question. He was of opinion that it would be better for the honourable gentleman to put off his motion till some future day. Mr. Ward would vote for the measure of the honourable gentleman now, precisely on the ground which the mover had disclaimed: because he thought that the enormous influence of the crown ought, by all fair and constitutional means, to be diminished. Many years ago, a memorable resolution had passed in that house, " that the influence of the crown had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished." If, at that time, the resolution was correct in point of fact; if it was nearly so; if it was not a complete and palpable falsehood; what was the state of the influence of the crown now? During the last thirty years, it had been rapidly increasing, strengthening with our weakness, until it arrived at its present enormous height-such a height that it pervaded the whole face of the country; that it insinuated itself almost into every family in the nation; and that there was hardly an individual so obscure, or insulated, as not to be subject to it, either directly or through his connexions. But to show to what a height the influence of the crown had grown, nothing more was necessary than the fact, that these were the ministers of the country! for, if it had not grown to such a size as never had been known under the house of Brunswick, such a ministry could not have existed a moC 4 ment ment-nay, no such administration could ever have been formed, as no one could have ventured upon such an experiment. No one could more detest than he did any thing which led to violent and revolutionary changes; he would go further, and say, that if there was any branch to which he would without much apprehension allow rather more than its due share of power, it was the monarchical branch; but for the sake of the people, some stop ought to be put to the enormous growth of the power of the crown, and also for the advantage of the crown itself, lest the time should at last come when it must extinguish the other branches, or be itself extinguished. If he would diminish the power of the crown, it was to widen its basis and increase its security. There was nothing more to be deprecated at present than the abs traction of the mind by minor objects from those of a greater and more extensive importance. Of all the forms which were agitated, there were two which he thought of prominent consequence: first, a reform in the great departments of state, which probably might, to a certain degree, be expected from the labours of the finance committee; and secondly, a reform in the whole mode and principle of conducting the war. The house would recollect, that twice as much had been expended on the late calamitous and most impolitic expeditions, as would have purchased the fee simple of all these sinecures. What was the use of our economy, if the fruits of it were to be converted in to a fund for the ministers to squander upon such frantic expeditions as that to Walcheren? For his part, he had rather that the money should be thrown away upon the idlest and most useless of mankind, than that it should form, in the hands of mi, nisters, an instrument for the destruction of our soldiers. The chancellor of the exchequer observed, that the feeling which seemed to be uppermost in the mind of the honourable gentleman was, that whatever may be the subject under consideration, a charge was to be brought against government. Whether the question was one for reform, economy, or upon any subject of general policy, the honourable gentleman opposite took occasion to bring complaints against the conduct of the government; and to urge, that if talents, ability, and integrity were necessary, they were to be found on their side of the house. The honourable gentleman opposite well knew, that they and their party possessed a much larger proportion of the offices to which the motion applied, than the gen tlemen on his side; and he would ask them, whether it was fair, just, or honest in them, to make the possession of such places the ground of charge against his majesty's. present servants? For himself, he should oppose the motion, but upon a different ground from that stated by the honourable gentleman, who had taken such a view of it only as would lead to a change of govern ment, in which he should justly be destined to bear so conspicuous a part. The committee of finance had reported upon the subject of sinecures, that, if they were to be abolished, an equivalent should be provided in some other way. As to the observation of the honourable gentleman respecting the great increase of the influence of the crown, he was ready to deny the fact. Since the period when that house had agreed to the proposition of of Mr. Dunning, all Mr. Burke's measures of reform had taken place. Besides, in the proportion in which the influence of the crown had increased, in consequence of the augmented revenue and expenditure of the country, the means and wealth of its population had kept constantly progressive, and formed a balance for any accession to the influence of the crown. He looked upon the motion before the house to be premature; but was of opinion, that whether the expeditions alluded to by the honourable member had been successful or unsuccessful, or whatever might have been the expenses attending them, such topics were wholly unconnected with the question before the house. Mr. Lamb and Mr. Creevy were for the motion. Mr. Saunders spoke against it. Mr. Bankes urged Mr. Fuller to withdraw it for the present; to which he agreed, We have already noticed the measures taken by Mr. Bankes to prevent places in reversion to be given away by the crown. The bill passed the house of commons without much opposition, but in the upper house it met with a different reception. The second reading of it was appointed for Monday, February 26; when earl Grosvenor observed, though ministers seemed reluctant to give their opinions on the subject, an opposition to the bill had been started by a noble friend, and supported by others; so that it was deemed necessary to adjourn the discussion, on the ground of the necessity of a communication of the royal consent in the first instance, as if the bill involved an attack on the prerogative of the crown. The particular objection had however been given up, and he hoped that this bill would not founder on the rock of pre- for |