gland.

for

fairs; when we recollect, that lord Corn-sures of the marquis Wellesley's adminis wallis was sent out to India for the express tration. The hon. director, before he sat purpose of undoing all lord Wellesley had down, said, he could not help bearing his done, of overturning all his schemes, and testimony to the rectitude of the prinputting an end to all his projects; when we ciples and conduct of the hon. gent. (Mr. observe too, the joy that has been express-Francis), not only in Bengal, but in Enged by all those most interested in India affairs, at the expectation that those schemes Mr. Francis, in explanation, said :-Sir, and projects are now put an end to, and I am obliged to the worthy direct never to be renewed;-when we observe the testimony he has borne to the rectitude that every person who has spoken in this of my principles and conduct, not only in debate, with the exception of the hon. bart Bengal, but in England, that is, with respect and the noble lord, have joined in that ex-to the government of India, and the true pression of joy; it does not appear to me interests of the India company. In fact, very extraordinary, that some enquiries however, he has done more than I asked, should be made into the nature and plan or expected of him. The appeal I made of that administration, the termination of to him, related solely and expressly to my which is so great and so general a matter labours and sufferings in India, and not to of exultation. But, sir, this is not all; the my merits at home or abroad. Of the forderangement of the affairs, and the ex-mer he was an eye-witness: no man has hausted state of the finances, of the East- a higher opinion of his moral character India company are now confessed and al-than I have. On the facts in question, lowed: and when we know that the com- there cannot be a more competent witness, pany is now reduced to the necessity of nor any human evidence less to be suscoming to us to give them aid and relief, pected. and we hear that they are most unwilling to bring any charge against lord Wellesley, and abstain, not because they do not condemn his policy, but because they think well of his intentions, it is not surprising that others, less placable than these gentlemen, should now and then in the course of debate express sentiments of disapprobation at his conduct.-The noble bart. says this is attacking the noble lord by a side-wind. I do not agree with him. I do not think it is fair to complain of so natural a proceeding. Sir; after the length to which this debate has run, I shall not add any more. I have been called up by the observations of the hon. bart. and I was glad to have an opportunity of noticing the universal expression of dissatisfaction from all sides of the house at the conduct of lord Wellesley.

Mr. Wallace was of opinion that the policy, the measures, and the whole of the system acted upon by lord Wellesley, were wise and highly beneficial, and when the subject came under discussion, he should be ready to state the grounds upon which he thought the services of that noble lord entitled him to the gratitude of the house and of the country.

Mr. Johnstone rose to express his thanks to the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) for consenting to the production of the papers. He was glad to find that the court of directors were disposed to support the present system begun by lord Cornwallis, and that his right hon. friend retained his former sentiments on this subject. He remarked upon the difference which was known to prevail as to the system of government which ought to be acted upon in India, between the opinions formerly expressed by some of the present ministers, and the course now pursuing in that quarter. He was glad, however, now to have the doubts which naturally rose out of the difference alluded to, completely removed by a de

Mr. Charles Grant rose to explain. With respect to sir G. Barlow, he observed, that whatever part he had taken in the measures of marquis Wellesley, was not inconsistent with the system he was now to pursue. The two Mahratta wars had come on so rapidly, that it was impossible to have any opinion upon them from this country. Heclared change of sentiment. was at present in possession of the opinion of his superiors, and had honestly declared his determination to act in conformity with it. Whatever other gentlemen might think upon the subject, he was himself convinced, that there was nothing dishonourable in the part that gentleman took in the mea

Mr. Secretary For observed upon the logic and the prudence evinced by the last speaker. His logic, he thought, by no means just, and his prudence was certainly not laudable. For as to his logic, it did not follow that because gentlemen thought proper to adopt a certain line of policy,

approved of a declaratory bill. It was an engine by which a great deal of mischief might be done; through it the law of the land might be overturned, by its declaring that to be law, which was not law. The noble earl, in adverting, as an hypothetical case, to the return of members of parlia

under certain circumstances, they would be subject to the imputation of inconsistency in pursuing a different line where those circunstances had undergone a material change; and as to the hon. gent.'s prudence, it surely was not laudable to press the charge of inconsistency upon any men who might shew a disposition to abandonment, through the influence of wealthy or opinions which the hon. gent. himself pronounced erroneous, and to adopt those which he professed to consider correctly right. The several papers moved for were ordered to be laid before the house.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Tuesday, March 11.

[WITNESSES' LIABILITY BILL.] The house resolved itself into a committee on the bill for Declaring the Law with respect to Witnesses being liable to answer.

powerful individuals, recited the anecdote of a late noble lord, who obtained the place he wished for, from the then prime minister, by threatening him, in case of a refusal, with the defection of his own support in one house, and that of his friends in the other. His brief and pithy answers to the arguments and representations of the ininister, were, "There are seven of us! There are seven of us! Remember, there are seven of us!" Continuing his observations against a declaratory bill, he stated, The Lord Chancellor, in order that there that an actual majority of the great lawyers might be no doubt as to the security of of the country were of such an opinion as witnesses against being compelled to an- to explode the necessity of such a bill as swer any question, the answering of which the present. He adverted to some opinions might subject them to penalty or forfeiture, given by the late lord Mansfield, and among proposed to insert the words " any penalty these, the case which gave rise to that or forfeiture of what nature soever," instead recorded observation of his lordship, to the of the mere words "penalty or forfeiture." then Mr. Dunning: "if that be law, I'll - Earl Stanhope rose, and expressed his burn my books." He adverted to the esdisapprobation of the bill before the com- tablished compellability of pawnbrokers to mittee, as a declaratory act. He expressed give evidence, and adduced some reasons his hope, that, by subsequent legislative why horse-dealers should be considered in provisions, should the present bill be pass- the same light. He liked not the idea of ed, his noble friend would guard against the present bill passing, to the imminent the mischiefs which might arise from such risk of that which he proposed; but, with a measure. On this ground, however, he a view of so far obviating the inconvenicould not avoid coming forward and object-ence to be apprehended, it would be better ing to the bill as it then stood, and endea- to pass his bill in the first instance. He vouring to induce their lordships to divest adverted to some further cases, which, he it of its declaratory character. He was conceived, tended to shew the probable hostile to the principle of bills of that de-inconveniences of passing such a bill as scription; which, he thought, should never the present. He was, he observed, very be passed by the legislature, except in very stout in his opinions upon those points; extreme cases. The occasion which he al- he had read more acts of parliament than luded to was, for instance, a violation of a perhaps most lawyers, having perused all principle of the constitution, such a case as those from Magna Charta down to about was referred to in the preamble of the bill fifteen years back. His lordship, towards of rights, &c.; and such was the case of the conclusion of his address, adverted to the excellent bill declaratory of the law some farther cases; by one of which, stating respecting libels, proposed by a right hon. it bypothetically, from the contingency of member of the other house of parliament. technical incorrectness in his answer, an On that occasion, his noble and learned individual might be destituted of his means friend near him, (the chancellor), deserved of support. He repeated his hope, that the thanks of the country; he did not the inconveniences which might arise from mean for his conduct with respect to the such a construction in the law, would be bill alluded to, but for what he had so no-guarded against by adequate legislative bly done to assert and to uphold the con- provisions. stitutional powers of juries. Except on

The Lord Chancellor observed, it would some great occasion of the kind, he never be better, had his noble friend postponed VOL. VI.

Dd

Earl Stanhope moved, that the bill for the more effectual Discovery of Truth, be read a second time to-morrow, which was ordered accordingly.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Residence bill was read a second time.-Mr. Tierney presented a petition from the debtors confined in the Marshalsea.-Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the American treaty act, and obtain

the discussion of his own bill, until it came chancellor; after which the house resumed, regularly before the house; as to that he and ordered the report to be received to→ conceived the greater part of his observa-morrow. tions to have applied. He did not altogether approve, on such an occasion as the present, of his noble friend referring to the authorities of dead judges, as well as the living; as, in all cases of the kind, the law must be decided by the actual judges of the time. There were cases in Tuesday, March 11. forensic practice, in which a counsel might, [MINUTES.] Mr. Irwin, inspector-general allowably, fortify his opinions by a refer- of imports and exports, presented an account ence to those of former judges; but, on of all the duties on customs,charged and outsuch an occasion, a poll of defunct, as well standing, on the 5th of Jan. 1805 and 1806 as living luminaries of the law, so as to out-respectively distinguishing the permanent number those of the living, who might be of and temporary duties.-The Irish Clergy a contrary opiniour, was a doctrine to which he could not submit. Such proceedings would tend eventually to interfere with the judicial functions of that house. A proposition, that the law was so taken from the very beginning of the British constitu-ed leave to bring in a bill to continue, for a tion, to the present moment, was what he time to be limited, the act of the 37th of had never heard of. The law was to be ta- his majesty, for carrying into effect the trea ken, from the mouths of those appointed to ty of amity, navigation, and coinmerce deliver it; but a poll in the way his noble with the united states of America.-Sir friend appeared inclined to adopt, would Charles Bunbury presented a petition from be as objectionable as a poll of departed the maltsters of the county of Suffolk; as peers, with respect to decisions in that did Mr. Mordaunt one from those of the house. Adverting to the objections against county of Warwick, and of the county of the bill itself, he observed, that in such a the city of Coventry, praying relief from case as it applied to, a declaratory act was the restrictions imposed by the 42d of his more peculiarly necessary, that is, where majesty.-Mr. Rose presented a petition doubts existed; as, if such did not exist, from the trustees of the British Museum, there would be no necessity of declaring praying the annual parliamentary grant. what the law was. Mr. Rose then moved, that there be laid Earl Stanhope shortly spoke in explana-before the house an account of the expention. He then adverted to the language of diture of the British Museum for the last the bill, with respect to the term "lords year. Ordered. The secretary at war spiritual and temporal." These descrip- brought up the Mutiny bill, which was read tions, his lordship seemed to think, ought to be reversed, not only in the present, but in future bills, inasmuch as lords temporal, meaning princes of the blood, members of that house, had precedency of the very foremost of the spiritual peers, namely, the archbishop of Canterbury.

a first time.-Mr. H. Parnell was, on the motion of lord H. Petty, added to the committee for investigating the joint accounts of Great Britain and Ireland. [IRISH CATHOLICS.] Mr. Dillon rose for the purpose of putting a question to the right hon. gent.opposite (Mr. Fox), with a view to Lord Auckland deprecated an alteration learn the future intentions of that right hon. of the kind, without the fullest and most gent.with respect to the claims of a large pormature consideration; deeming it far pre- tion of his majesty's subjects in Ireland. In ferable to abide by the uniform practice of doing this, he was not actuated by any wish parliament, and to follow the example of to embarrass his majesty's ministers, or by their ancestors in such cases.-The ques-motives of idle curiosity. Rumours had tion was then put, on an amendment as proposed by earl Stanhope, tending to do away the effect of the declaratory part of the bill, but which was negatived by the committee. Their lordships then agreed to the amendments proposed by the lord

gone abroad of a very extraordinary change of sentiments having taken place in certain quarters, on the subject of the claims of the catholics of Ireland. It was also rumoured, that the great body of the catholics had acquiesced in this change of opi

nion. It was of the utmost importance pose so much of the surplus revenue in the to the tranquillity of Ireland that this sub-first instance, the whole of that surplus was ject should be set at rest one way or the allowed to be laid out in an investment, other, and he trusted the right hon. gent. out of the profits arising from the sale of would relieve him from his suspense on the which, the court of directors were to set subject. apart the sum of 500,000l. annually to Mr. Secretary For spoke to the following answer such bills as should be drawn by effect: Really the question of the hon. gent. the government in India to the amount and is so extremely vague that I cannot pretend for the purpose specified in the act.-That to answer it, for I confess that I do not dis-since this year 1793, it appeared that bills tinctly understand it. The hon. gent. has had been drawn to the amount of not less talked of some rumours afloat as to an altera- than 8 millions. Whether they had been tion of opinion respecting the catholics, a-granted to the creditors of the company, mong those who formerly supported them; and had therefore gone in liquidation of but as I do not know to whom he alludes, I the debt, he could not say; if so, the only cannot give him a precise answer. But with difference would be that, in that case, the regard to the rumour that the catholic body amount of debt contracted would be by have acquiesced in the reported alteration so much the larger than would otherwise respecting their claims, I should rather ask appear to be the fact; but so it was, that the hon. gent. himself upon that point. So so far from the debt having been actually far as I am concerned in this question, when-reduced, it had swollen from 7 to nearly 30 ever it comes under discussion, I shall be millions; and of this 30 millions he was perfectly ready to state my opinion, and all I further informed, (to ascertain which, was think it necessary to say as to my future con- the object of his motion,) that a consideduct is to refer to a consideration of my past. rable part, he was afraid to say how much, I cannot, however, hesitate to state, that if had been contracted upon terms which enany gentleman were to ask my advice as to titled the holder of the loan to go to the the propriety of bringing forward the catho- treasury atCalcutta, and receive,on demand, lic claims at present, I should recommend bills upon the court of directors payable him to take into consideration the prospect 12 months after date according to the mode of success, and the greater probability of in which bills are usually drawn from India. succeeding this year or the next; at the-That this was the case, his lordship sard same time to bear in mind the issue of last he had no manner of doubt. He had heard year's discussion. In the part which I took upon that occasion, I was actuated by the strongest sense of duty-but at present do not feel myself obliged to say any thing more upon the subject.

it from authority which he could not question, and it had been admitted by every one with whom he had conversed on the subject. He was moreover confirmed by a publication which he held in his hand, [AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Lord Ossulston the Calcutta Monthly Journal for the month Tose to make his promised motion with re- of May, 1805, in which, as well as in many spect to the Debt of the East-India com- others of different dates, he found a regular pany. After some preliminary observa-Government Notification of a loan in which tions, his lordship stated, that in the year this condition is distinctly stated. After 1793, it appeared that the debt of the East- saying that "the public are hereby informIndia company bearing interest, was about 7 million, which it was proposed to reduce to 2 million; that in order to do this, a power was given, by the act of 1793, to the different presidencies in India to grant bills in favour of the creditors of the company on the court of directors to the amount of 500,000l. annually, and no more, for the purpose of transferring or, in other words, liquidating this debt; that is to say, it being determined to be a matter of policy and expedience, that the debt should be reduced, in order to carry this into effect in the manner the most beneficial to the company, instead of applying to this pur

ed that the sub-treasurer at the presidency, &c. have been authorized to receive any sums of money," &c. it goes on to say, "the principal of the promissory notes shall be payable either in Bengal under the rules established for the payment of the register debt now existing, or by bills to be drawn by the governor-general in council, on the hon. court of directors; which bills shall be granted at any time on the application of the proprietor of the notes, either when the principal shall have become payable in Bengal, or at any earlier period."Taking for granted, then, that this has een the mode of proceeding, the next question

3

of prevention, if any such could be found, that he should move, "that there be laid before this house, a return of the debts of the East-India company in India from January 1794, up to the latest period; specifying the terms and dates of the several loans, together with the rate of interest, and when and where the principal and interest of the said loans are payable."

India company, the loans contracted by the several presidencies, aud the terms upon which they were made, distinguishing such loans as bore interest, from those which did not, with the terms of interest, when and where payable, &c. up to the latest period. Such an account he believed, would answer better than that moved for, the object his noble friend professed to have in view. There was an additional reason for acceding to a short delay, and it was this, that it would enable those concerned in the immediate superintendance of Indian affairs to collect more accurate information which they would be most probably ena bled to do by farther arrivals.

was, whether it has been with or without to ascertain this fact, as well as to afford an the authority of the court of directors?-opportunity for interposing timely measures If without their authority, it was as far as he could understand, though it was not the question of law, but the matter of fact which he wished to establish, directly in the face of the 110th clause of the act of 1793, which provides, "that nothing in this act shall extend to authorize any of the governments in India to grant bills for the purpose of transferring or remitting the said debts from India to Great Britain, Lord Morpeth expressed a wish that his to become due and payable within any noble friend would withdraw his motion, one year, exceeding in amount the sum of assuring him that it was the intention of 500,000. unless by the special order and ministers to lay before the house the fullest authority of the court of directors of the possible information with respect to the said company, for that purpose first had and affairs of India. In conformity with this obtained."-To issue, therefore, promis-intention the noble lord stated, that he sory notes exchangeable at the pleasure of would, in a very few days, submit a mothe holder for bills on the court of directors, tion for a return of all the debts of the provided the amount of such promissory notes exceeded the sum of 500,000l. in any one year, he contended to be against the express provisions and meaning of this act. Without, therefore, the authority of the court of directors, this proceeding was illegal; if it was with their authority, which it was impossible to believe, he should be at a loss how to reconcile it with the duty they owed to their constituents the court of proprietors, and to the faithful discharge of the important trusts committed to their hands. In what manner this accumulation of debt had taken place, formed no part of his present purpose. Whether it had arisen from war, which could hardly be the case, because since the year 1793, with the exception of the Marhatta war, there had been but one war in India, that against Tippoo, which lasted a few months and which paid its own expences; or whether, which was more credible, it had arisen from the expence of civil and military establishments constantly exceeding the revenue derived from that accession of territory which had rendered these additional establishments - necessary, however this might be, as to the origin of the debt, if the amount and nature of it was such as he had described, if ouly a small portion of the amount stated to him, had been contracted upon the terms he imagined, and that the East-India company were liable to be drawn upon any day to an amount infinitely beyond all imagination of their means to pay, it was unnecessary to put to the house what was the situation of the East-India company, and what was the extent of mischief which might possibly arise. It was with a view

Lord Ossulston assented to the request of his noble friend.

Mr. Francis rose, not to take any part in the discussion of this subject, but merely to say, that there was one question connected with the finances of India, to which, notwithstanding his general resolution, as the house had heard, he felt himself bound, and that was the loan made by the government of Bombay to Gwicowar. Upon this loan, however, he should reserve his sentiments, until all the promised documents should be laid before the house, and until the India budget should be brought forward for discussion.

Lord Folkestone was glad that the attention of the house had been called to the important interests of India, and thought many good effects would be likely to arise from this circumstance. He hoped that the documents promised by the noble member of the board of controul, would be speedily brought forward,and prove fully satisfactory,