increase in number as the population ad-justice and gratitude of parliament have left vances, and the charge of relieving the nothing to his friends to desire on this head, same number of poor must also increase in but surely a prouder monument was never proportion as all the articles of food, &c. raised by the wisdom and exertions of an advance in price.--I certainly do not deny individual to his own fame, than this single that the pressure of taxes is severe, but I measure, established and inviolably adhered de assert that it is not such as to check or to through times of the utmost difficulty.disturb in any respect the industry, and Can' it, then, be said that the country does' consequently the prosperity of the country. not exhibit at this moment the most con-If the hon. gent. wishes to know what vincing signs of wealth and prosperity? an impoverished and declining country is, If the people are heavily burthened, they let him refer back to the period when my bear it with fortitude and good will, because late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) first took they feel it is the necessary consequence of charge of the finances of the country in the efforts which they are called upon to 1784. The manufactures and commerce make for their own preservation against the declining in proportion as burthens were common enemy. Heavy as the pressure is, imposed, even new taxes counteracting can the hon. gent. recollect any period in those in existence, and the whole falling the history of the country when discontent short in produce of what they were taken was less apparent, or when the nation subat, and with difficulty providing for the mitted with more marks of manliness and permanent charge of the debt. We now even satisfaction to every sacrifice the pubfind, notwithstanding the taxes are since lic exigency has imposed? Never did any increased so much in amount, that both ministers succeed to a government when the old and new duties are increasing every that greatest of all resources and support, year in amount, that hardly a tax has been namely the public mind, was in a more laid which has not exceeded the estimate happy temper to aid them in surmounting of its produce, and the documents before the difficulties with which they have to conparliament indisputably prove, that our tend; never did any ministers find the counagriculture, manufactures, and commerce try on their coming into office more truly are extending themselves rapidly even in prosperous, its revenue more productive, the midst of war.-We have also in later or its credit higher. That such was the years been able to adopt the salutary prin- state of the navy I am sure they will not ciple of raising a large proportion of our deny, and I shall be prepared to maintain,' supplies within the year (including the war when that subject comes regularly into distaxes now proposed) to an extent nearly of cussion, that the same may be asserted one half of our war expenditure; an effort with not less truth with respect to the army.' which could only be made by a country Finding all the main features of our national both highly affluent and prosperous, whilst strength thus vigorous and entire, I trust the sinking fund, already amounting to they will continue to administer them upon about eight millions a year, gives us every those principles by which they have been reason to hope that the moment is not far hitherto preserved, improved, and upheld. distant when the comparatively small in- The noble lord has done himself honour by crease of debt which now takes place may the course he has pursued in his present be prevented even in war, and its rapid budget. The despondency of the hon. gent. liquidation looked to with confidence on will not, I trust, discourage him from conthe return of peace. The noble lord well tinuing to tread in the path which his predescribed the value of this institution to decessor has marked out for him. So long the public on a former night, by stating it as as he perseveres in doing so, and as it shall his persuasion, that, had the sinking fund be the principle of the government to mainon its present principles not been establish-tain with firmness that system upon which ed in 1786, we must ever since have made our loans on terms so ruinous as to have incurred an annual charge for interest alone fully equal to what now covers both the interest and sinking fund of the public debt. It may therefore be fairly said, that a perpetual annuity of 8 millions a year has been thereby saved to the nation, which after liquidating the principal is revertible to them.-The VOL. VI. their predecessors have acted, the noble lord will find me anxious to smooth his difficulties and to afford him my cordial support. Mr. Vansittart observed, that the general approbation of the plan of taxation of his noble friend rendered it unnecessary to say much on the outline of it; and it must meet the particular approbation of those who admired the system of the late right $ s hon. chancellor of the exchequer, inas-to the house of commons the ways and much as it was following up his system of means of the year; because he had propo◄ war taxes a character for whom he had sed the ways and means before the amount the highest respect, and whose loss he, of the supplies were known, which must in common with the house, deplored. He be the case until it was known what our aradmitted, also, the high authority of Mr. my was to be. It was said, that the proHatsell, whose book had been quoted by duce of the war taxes were so appropriated, the noble lord on the other side of the that they could not be diverted from their house, the effect of which was, that the intended purpose; but it was not so in Ways and Means should never exceed the point of fact; for as to appropriation, the supply. That was perfectly constitutional moment these taxes were voted, they were doctrine. But the answer to the noble lord as much under the will of the lords of the who had made that quotation, from that treasury, and at their command, as any most undoubted constitutional authority, other sum of money voted by parliament was, that, in this case, the Ways and Means for the public service; and therefore this already voted did not amount to the supplies measure, as far as it went, was a direct vioby several millions, when the matter came lation of the constitutional principle, properly to be explained, in a constitution- which provided that the ways and means al sense; because noue could be called tax- should not be voted until the whole of the es, among the ways and means, until they supplies were known; and this was done were appropriated by parliament; and in without any ground whatever for it. that sense the supplies already voted ex-These ways and means should never be voceeded the ways and means by several ted before the army estimates had been vomillions. As to voting the ways and ted in a committee of supply; it never means before the army was voted, it must had been done in any instance since the rebe recollected, that we had an army esti-volution. mate already voted for 5 months; and as to that which was now proposed, there was a precedent for it in the vote of the navy in the year 1802, when a vote was first for four months, then for two, and then for the remainder of the year; upon which occasion he had the honour of moving the resolutions, which he read now to the house to confirm his statement. He then pro-hardly right for the hon. gent. to be the ceeded to shew the advantages of applying the system of war taxes to the exigency of our affairs, the effect of which was almost incredible, and for adopting which his noble friend was entitled to a proportionate share of credit. This was a system which commenced with the late war; he would venture to assert the effect had been, that, at the close of the present war, there was a saving to the public of 80 millions of capital, and about 3 millions of permanent taxes; and if adopted at the commencement of the war preceding, the public would have been relieved of 200 millions capital, and 8 millions a year permanent taxes; and thererore there was no difficulty in agreeing to his noble friend's system of war taxes, for the purpose of preventing the accumulation of our debt. He must repeat, that the thing was never attempted before, since the revolution, except in the instance quoted by the hon. gent. who had just spoken, and which he stated to have taken place on his own motion in 1802, which ought not to be considered as a precedent, for it was a thing of which the house did not happen to take a proper notice, and it was author of a bad precedent; and this shewed the propriety of the house never enduring the same unconstitutional measure again; and this was all he should say on that head, except expressing a hope that such a thing would never be attempted again by any minister. As to the taxes, he desired to be understood as not intending to throw any difficulties in the way of government; for he had no wish to oppose one of them, nor should he do, so when the bills were brought in; he thought it right, however, that the noble lord might hear what he had to say upon them; then he might turn them in his mind in the course of their progress, and judge how iar any of his arguments ought to have any weight. In the first place, the tax on wine, he was confirmed, would not produce what it was estimated at. It was proposed Mr. Kose maintained, that notwithstand- to be made permanent for the war by Mr. ing every thing which had been endea-Pitt; but he did not apply it to the payvoured to be argued to the contrary, the noble lord had certainly violated the principle of the constitution of this country, as established in the system of proposing ment of the interest of the debt, altho' he considered it as made permanent as a mere war tax; it had increased at first, but had fallen off: and he was aware it would not produce what it was taken at. He spoke lord Camelford; and other men of the first from documents which could not mislead talents, and to whom the house looked up, him on this subject; he believed, that in-were on that conimittee, the member for stead of taking it at 500,000l. it would be Salisbury, and the member for Hertford; wiser to take it at 300,000l. The tax on and an investigation of the public accounts iron was one which Mr. Pitt had in contem- was then set on foot. That committee replation; but it would have the effect of di- ported to the house the taxes then imposed, minishing the produce of other articles. and the produce of them; and as they thought He spoke on this subject from the best in it an object for the house to consider, wheformation; for he had, under the direction ther the taxes of that year had any effect on of Mr. Pitt, possessed himself of informa- former taxes, they called for an account of tion from every furnace in the kingdom; the other; but what was most surprising, and the papers were at the service of the they did not cast up the totals, and comnoble lord, as was every other information pare the taxes of the year with those which he possessed; for his object was to serve had preceded them; if they had, they would his country to the utmost of his power, and have found that the taxes of that yea not to thwart any measures taken for its amounted to one million less than those support. As to the tax on appraisements, of the preceding year, although 700,000l. that had also been proposed to Mr. Pitt, had been added to the taxation of that year; but it had been given up as a thing likely to this was in the year 1782. But when Mr. be too unproductive to be entertained. Pitt came into power, he put the finances With regard to the tax on tea, there were into a regular state. The first step he took really serious objsctions taken to it by Mr. was to move the house, for a committee to Pitt, particularly on the lower sorts of it, consider the state of the finance of the counfor it was, in general, used with the poor- try, and to bring it into a proper method; er sort of people, and this he knew from the chairman of the committee was a noble personal experience; he knew that the lord (Grenville), now at the head of the mass of the poorer classes not only took tea treasury, a more fit person than whom he morning and evening, but also very often did not believe existed, either for that sifor their dinner; and this made Mr. Pitt tuation, or the present exalted one which he very unwilling to make it the subject of tax-now filled, and whose appointment gave him ation. As to the article of tobacco, it sincere pleasure. Under that noble lord, would produce a great deal of money, for was made a report, which brought forward there was a large consumption of it; but the true state of the finance of the country, here, again, it should be remembered, that and the country benefited much by the lathe value of the article itself was about 6d. bours of that intelligent committee. At a pound; there was already a duty of 1s. 7d. the end of 6 years, another committee was upon it, and this additional 6d. would appointed, at the head of which was lord make the duty four times the value of the Harrowby, whose labours were also abunarticle, a great temptation to smuggling, dantly useful. At the end of six years afcertainly; the facility to which was the terwards, another committee was appointgreater, as it was an article easily carried ed, in which the present speaker of the on horseback. There were many other house of commons presided; and he should observations which he might make on other not be suspected of flattery when he said articles of taxation proposed by the noble that of all the reports he ever saw, this was lord; but he should not make them, be- the best, and indeed it would have done crecause his object was to lend all the aid in dit to the wisest man that ever considered the his power to government, instead of ob- subject of finance, and by which any man of structing it. He then proceeded to observe, common understanding night understand that until lately, that is, long within his the subject of the finance of this country. own memory, no attempt was made to All this was under the auspices of Mr. Pitt, bring the public accounts of this country and was highly creditable to his memc. into any thing like form or system. He ry. As to the subject of the civil list, he was wished the house to understand the situa-sorry that what the noble lord said on that tion in which Mr. Pitt found the finances of this country, and the situation in which he left them. A committee was appointed some years ago, at the head of which was a very respectable gentleman, Mr. Pitt, afterwards subject had made the impression which it did, for he was confident the uoble lord intended nothing unfavourable from that quarter to be felt by the house, and indeed the arrears had arisen from causes which 110 men of war had been captured, and the possessions of the French had been taken in the East and West Indies: almost all their colonies had become ours. We had never once been defeated in any one engagement, but had been victorious every where, our arms triumphant in every part of the world. All this during the administration of Mr. Pitt, and all this while too our revenue was in a condition infinitely more flourishing than ever, and was made the astonishment of the world, as well as the state of our trade and com were unavoidable; and it was not to be for- mense effect every man had become its adgotten that his majesty had, of his own mirer. Having said so much on these toroyal grace, given to the public one million, pics, he should make an observation or which was entirely his own. As to the two on others, and that by way of dispelling subject of poor-rates, which had been all ideas of gloom as to the situation of brought forward, and stated at six millions our affairs, and for this again we were inannually, he was not aware that the sub-debted to Mr. Pitt, for, during his adminisject was to have been mentioned, otherwise tration, the number of the ships of the enehe would have turned, in a minute, to an my taken by us were actually more than the exact account of it; he could however, whole number taken before that time, since assure the house, from a recollection which the revolution, potwithstanding the wars indid not deceive him, that the amount was which we had been engaged, and in which we not quite 5 millions; a large sum, howe- had acquired so much glory. Putting them ver, he admitted, but which might be con-all together, they would not amount to siderably diminished by finding out em-what had been done in the administra ployment for paupers; this was an inter-tion of Mr. Pitt, in which no less than esting subject, worthy of great attention he had turned his thoughts a great deal to it. An attempt had been made to provide a remedy; but the party endeavouring had aimed at too much, and met the fate of those who aim at too much; the subject, however, should not be despaired of, but pursued, for he was confident that much amelioration was practicable in that system. He then took a view of the sinking fund. The first person who applied a sinking fund to the finance of this country was lord Ox ford, when he was a commoner, and so much applause attended him for that mea-merce; and our navigation extended besure, that in his patent of peerage it was yond, the example of any nation on the stated, that he was created a peer for it. face of the globe. He said these things as It ended, however, in the South-sea bubble, the due reward of Mr. Pitt. He did not after 500,000l. had been laid out upon it, say that the situation of the present chanThe next application of a sinking fund cellor of the exchequer was not arduous; was by sir R. Walpole; but afterwards he he knew it was so, but it should not be delivered it up in the time of peace, after it increased by any captious opposition by had paid one million and an half; but the him; on the contrary, he should be glad to real sinking fund deserving that name, was assist him in every thing in his power; and the sinking fund of Mr. Pitt; it might be he believed he possessed some information said to have been invented by him. It was which might be useful to that noble lord said by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox), that on many of the topics to which he had been after the American war, any administration, alluding. He could not, however, do better whatever the plans of policy it might have than follow the system laid down for him entertained, must have adopted a sinking by his predecessor in office, Mr. Pitt. He fund. He did not know what any admi-wished the present administration to thrive; nistration might have done; but this he and he wished that, at the end of their caknew, that nobody ever did it as it should reer, whenever that might be, they might be done but Mr. Pitt, and by which he be able to render to their country as furnished this country with a permanent good an account of their labours in its revenue out of that.which did not deserve the name of a revenue; for when Mr. Pitt came into power, the finances of the country were only just sufficient to pay the interest of the debt, leaving nothing for any Lord Henry Petty explained what he said other expenditure and in two years from on the subject of the arrears of the civil that time, which was from 1784 to 1786, Mr. list, in which, he said, it was in the recolPitt established a sinking fund of one mil-lection of the house, whether he did not lion, which he kept sacred, until by its im-most distinctly state the arrears of the civil service, as had been done by Mr. Pitt; and an higher honour they could never obtain; that they might obtain it, was his hearty wish. * sinking fund, without any additional burthen on the country. But it was impossible for him to say what should be the limits of expenditure in a war of such indefinite magnitude. list to have arisen from matters which were Mr. Hiley Addington rose to express his unavoidable,and whether he had not also sta astonishment at what had fallen from the ted his maj.'s gracious disposition in bring-hon. member, in allusion to a declaration ing forward a million to the public service. made upon a former occasion by a noble Mr. Long trespassed upon the time of relation of his, not now present to defend the house but to reply to an allusion made himself; more especially as he recollected by a noble lord, in an early stage of the that to a similar mistake of that hon. gent. debate, that he (Mr. L.) had made a charge upon the very same ground, his noble reagainst that noble lord, in his absencelation had given an explanation totally difon a previous evening, of unhandsomelyferent, and such as he conceived satisfacand unjustly attributing to the late chan-tory, and corrective to the hon. gent.'s cellor of the exchequer the leaving great mistake. On the contrary, his noble relaarrears of revenue to be provided for by his tion had said, that if the expences of the successor. He had made no charge of war did not exceed 27 millions a year, illiberality against the noble lord, but had that then he should be enabled still to conmerely attempted a vindication of his pre-tinue the reduction of the public debt by decessor. The arrears which now presen- continuing the annual contribution to the ted themselves in the public accounts, were not the accumulation of last year, but arose from deficiencies that had been regularly carried forward from year to year, and the amount of which had been, in most years, increased by additional Mr. Sturges Bourne made no opposition items; though at the present time, they to the taxes proposed, but thought one were not larger than the outstanding de-argument of a right hon. secretary, in remands of last year. spect to the property tax, rather extraor Mr. Johnstone expressed his apprehen- dinary, and the very reverse of what he sions that neither the financial estimates always conceived to be that right hon. of the noble lord would be so productive, gent.'s opinion of that tax. He had always nor the expences of the war so limited as understood him to have been averse to the his statements alleged. He well remember-tax altogether, and thought he recollected ed that, in a former year of the war, a right him to have called it "an inquisitionary tax,” hon. gent, now a noble peer (lord Sidmouth) or some such epithet. He understood him had stated to the house, that, under the aid last year as having violently opposed a of the sinking fund, the war might be car-small increase of the tax; but never till ried on at an annual expence of 27 millions, without additional burthens on the country; and yet experience had shown, that it exceeded that estimate by nearly 20 millions. He observed, that the debate of this night was for the most part a debate of para-more acceptable to the people. doxes; but the most extraordinary of them Mr. Ward begged the noble chancellor all was the argument of the right hon.of the exchequer, to explain one expression secretary (Mr. Fox) in respect to the pro- in his statement, on a former night, reperty tax, namely, that the people would specting the subsidiary treaty, which he be better pleased to carry up the impost to stated to be so complex and indefinite, what he was pleased to call "its natural as not to afford the means of ascertaining limits," and be taxed ten per cent. at once, its extent, or whether the million, which than have the charge gradually increased he claimed as an arrear on that account, every year; but he believed, if the right was sufficient. The hon. gent. declared, hon. gent. had spoken this night from that that, in his mind, nothing could be more side of the house where he had been so long clear and simple, than the terms of the in the habit of maintaining other opinions, treaty. It stipulated to allow to our aleven with the whole force of his great ta- lies, 127. 10s. per man, for every man lents, and all his powers of eloquence, he brought into the field, and British pay would have found the strength of language from the time they quitted their own fronsinking under his exertions, in ridiculing tier till they returned to the same. such an argument coming from any minister sibly the noble lord's difficulty arose from to whom he might have been opposed. his not being able to ascertain whât num that night, did he understand the right hon. geut.'s objection to that increase, merely because it was too small; or to the tax itself, only because it was not doubled in the first instance, in order thus to render it Pos |