lord chancellor, respecting the time when-A message from the lords shortly after the preparations in Westminster-hall, for informed the house, that their lordships the court of parliament, sitting on the would give orders for summoning the wittrial of lord Melville, would be comple-nesses to attend the trial of lord Melville, ted; informed their lordships, that the as desired. Mr. Whitbread then gave nosame would be completely finished on Sa- tice that he should, to-morrow, move that turday next.-Mr. Whitbread presented a that part of the journals of the house of list of the names of certain additional wit-last session which contained the order of nesses who were deemed necessary by the the house to the attorney-general, to suscommons to be examined on the trial of pend the proceedings in the civil suit lord Melville, and requested their lord-against lord Melville be read, for the purships would issue summonses for their at-pose of moving, that the attorney-general tendance, on Tuesday, the 29th inst.-Af- be ordered still further to suspend the proter the messengers had withdrawn, their ceedings therein.-Admiral Markham, with lordships ordered that a message be sent to the commons, acquainting them, that their lordships would take the necessary steps to provide for the attendance of the witnesses mentioned.

a view to the charge to be preferred against earl St. Vincent, by an hon. member opposite, thought it necessary to call for some further papers, which, as they were already made out, would not create any delay. After a few words from Mr. Jeffery, who wished to give every accommodation in his power, that would not preclude him from bringing forward his charge in the present

Lord Walsingham read the report of the committee, to whom it was referred to search for precedents respecting their lordships' modes of proceeding on former cases of impeachment: which report was order-session, and from lord Howick, the several ed to be taken into consideration on Wed-papers were ordered.-Mr. Fox appeared nesday.

Lord Auckland moved, that the house should proceed on the trial of lord Melville de die in diem, except from any special considerations they should deem it expedient to adjourn to the day after the morrow of the day on which the motion should be made.

at the bar, with a Message from his majesty, which was ordered to be brought up, and was read by the speaker as usual. It was the same as that presented to the house of lords. See p. 806.-On the motion of Mr. Fox, this message was ordered to be taken into consideration the next day. He then moved for the production of several The Earl of Radnor moved that the fur- papers on this subject, which were afterther consideration of this motion should|wards laid before the house. also be postponed till Wednesday.-The [AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Lord Archibald earl of Rosslyn and the lord chancellor op- Hamilton rose, in consequence of the noposed this motion, on the ground of its tice which he had previously given, of a being unnecessary, it being already the ge-motion for a paper containing the opinion neral and decided opinion of the house, of the court of directors relative to the that they ought to proceed on the trial de die transactions in India, during the adminiin diem. The motion was then put and ne- stration of lord Wellesley. Before he progatived. On putting the original motion, ceeded to make his motion, he hoped the The Earl of Radnor opposed it, concei-house would allow him to preface it by a ving that 4 days in the week were as few preliminary observations. He first many as the house could devote to the apologised for himself in taking up this trial, consistently with that attention which business, but he was placed in this situation they must necessarily pay to other business. by the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. HuddleHe declined, however, proposing any alstone) having abandoned his original intenteration in the motion. The motion was then put and carried.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, April 21. MINUTES.] Mr. Whitbread moved, that a message be sent to the lords, with a list of the witnesses whom he proposed to have summoned by their lordships to attend the trial of lord Melville, Ordered.

tion of moving for this paper. He disclaimed all idea of moving for it with a view to its being made a ground of charge or a point of evidence against lord Wellesley. Much as he disapproved of the system upon which that noble lord acted, he had no intention of this kind. There would be sufficient opportunity afterwards for his declaring his opinion on that subject. IIis object in moving for this paper then

was, to make it a ground of charge against this occasion, to fear the opposition of some the late board of controul, and the noble of those friends with whom he usually acted; lord (Castlereagh) who presided there. If but he was not conscious of having exit appeared afterwards that the proceedings pressed any opinion contrary to those of that board had been just and proper, which they had been in the habit of mainnobody could be more ready to acknow-taining. He should, at least, have the saledge his error than he would be; but, un- tisfaction of thinking that the sentiments less he was very much mistaken indeed, it he had delivered respecting the inefficacy would turn out that there were good and absurdity of the present system for grounds of charge against them. The no- the government of India were similar ble lord had, year after year, gone on sta- to theirs. The noble lord then replied ting that the affairs of India were in a con- to several objections which he thought dition of the highest prosperity. The di- might be made to his motion, and conclu rectors now said that they were on the ded with moving, "That there be laid bebrink of ruin. One or other must be mis- fore the house a Dispatch approved by the taken, and his object was, to ascertain court of directors, dated 3d April, 1805, which statement was correct, and to whom to the governor general in council; the the evils that had fallen upon India were answer from the Board of controul refuto be attributed, supposing that the opi-sing to transmit the same; and a Reply nion of the directors was well founded. [from the court of directors to that answer." This he considered as a very proper subject Mr. Hudleston.-Sir, as I had given of deliberation for the house. The dis-repeated notice of intending to move for patch of the court of directors to the go- papers which would have included an exvernment, of Bengal, disapproving of the tract from the most important of those system that had been pursued, had been now moved for by the noble lord, I should submitted to the late board of controul, have felt it necessary to offer a few words and was withheld by them. The directors on the present occasion, even if I had not were at the same time obliged to sign a been particularly alluded to by the noble dispatch contradicting their real sentiments, lord, lest my silence now, should be as and approving those very measures which much misconstrued, as I find the motive they considered as pernicious. Was the has been which induced me to relinquish noble lord prepared to own himself the my intention of bringing forward those author of the awkward and unpleasant si- motions. The noble lord, by way of distuation in which the directors were thus tinguishing his own object from mine, has placed? What share of such a measure stated, that his is not to criminate lord would he take upon himself, and what Wellesley. Whenever an investigation would he ascribe to others? He called the may take place on the important subject attention of the house to the state of the of the state of our affairs in India, I trust unfortunate directors, who had a dispatch I shall not shrink from the discussion. But, forced upon them, contradictory to what was in respect to my motive for wishing the their real opinion, and this a dispatch which papers in question to be before the house, was afterwards laid before the house as a the facts are briefly and simply these. A statement of their real sentiments. This discussion in this house near the close of was the effect of that system for the govern- the last session, had given an impression, ment of India which had been so much op- both here and without doors, that the exposed by his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox), and ecutive body of the East-India Co. had which, had his bill been adopted, would approved of certain treaties concluded at never have taken place. The court of di- Oude, and transactions connected with rectors were without power, and the board them. A paper certainly very favourable of controul without responsibility. He to that idea, had been moved for, and orwould ask any gent. what would be his dered to be laid before the house, in which feelings, were he called upon in his private approbation of those transactions is excapacity to approve of what was contrary to his real sentiments? It was not for him to criticise the conduct of the directors, or to examine how far they were culpable in their compliance. Probably it was not in their power to have acted otherwise than they did. He confessed he had reason, on

pressed under the hands of the secret committee of the court of directors. Now, sir, knowing that the court of directors had not even been made acquainted with those transactions until two years after the date of that letter, and that, on their becoming acquainted with them, they had recorded

their disapprobation of them; I felt anx-bation expressed of them on that account, ious to remove the impression which the and the board of commissioners will be production of that letter had occasioned. entitled to commendation for having reThis was my sole object, and I therefore jected it. To consider, therefore, the determined to move for certain papers, paper as furnishing a ground of accusation which if produced, I knew would accom- against either party, seems to me, would plish it, and which had reference to no be like prejudging that question. But I other subject, than to the affairs of Oude, shall support the motion on what appears and Furruckabad.-But, from circumstan- to me to be broader ground-that every ces which must be fresh in the recollection paper on Indian affairs, that has been calof the house, and to which it became me led for since the attention of this house to yield every attention, I was induced to and the public has been drawn to the late postpone my motions three several times: transactions in India, has heen granted inuntil at length the document, an extract discriminately. And in respect to the from which was the most material of the Oude transactions, there is this additiopapers I had intended to move for, was de-nal argument for the production at least of manded by the East-India board, and after so much of the document in question, as some days laid before them. The pro-relates to them; namely, that the house duction of it here, therefore, was no has already ordered the production, of a longer necessary for the only object I paper, expressing the approbation enterhad in view. I consequently determined tained of those transactions by the board to relinquish my intention to move for of India commissioners. That paper of the papers; and I did so the more readily, course has made its own impression on the from the consideration that persons to house. The paper in question on the other whose judgments I feel, and ought to feel hand, expresses the disapprobation enterdeference, saw objections to the produc- tained by the court of directors of the tion of that paper; and also because, al- same transactions: and as the former has though the paper in question expresses the been granted, there seems an obvious pringeneral sentiments of the court of direc-ciple in favour of not withholding the tors, I might, in moving for it, appear to other; or at least of so much of it as recommit that body with regard to the ne-lates to those affairs which are before the cessity of its production here, which I had house; namely, those of Oude and Furno authority to do.-But these considera-ruckabad. At the same time I am aware, tions without the more material one of the that the production of that particular papaper having been produced elsewhere, per is liable to the objection, that it is would have given place to the anxiety Ia proposed letter or dispatch only, which felt, to exempt even the limited share and was not transmitted, and of course no space which I occupy in the court of direc-opportunity of answering it given to the tors, from that proportion of the merit or government, to which it was meant to be demerit which may be thought hereafter to addressed. This objection I should feel to attach to the transactions in question. I be decisive against the production of the patrust I have shewn, that, there was no incon- per now, if the late governor-general were sistency in my relinquishing my intention still absent in India; but, as he is on the of moving for those papers, and now that spot, it is open to him to have a copy of the paper in question, and others, are the paper to answer it, and to have a copy moved for by the noble lord, I certainly of his answer also moved for, and laid beshall vote for their production, though I fore this house: it may be said also, that cannot vote for it exactly on the grounds in effect the paper has been answered in stated by the noble lord; for I am unable the reasons which the board of commisto perceive, how the production of the sioners gave for rejecting it. But a stronpaper in question, can be considered as ger answer to the objection may be found furnishing ground of accusation against in the fact, that a paper under the same any party, against the board of commis- circumstances has been moved for, and sioners, any more than against the court of ordered without objection or discussion. directors. For, surely, if the proceedings The case was this: the court of directors at Oude, and any other proceedings ani-imagined that the act of the 33d of the madverted upon in that document, have king, in the whole of the spirit of it, but been just and right, the court of directors more literally and expressly in the 57th will be open to censure for the disappro- clause, rendered it illegal for a governor,

to appoint to any civil office under the it to his mind that the papers called for by crown, any person not a covenanted ser- his noble friend were not manifestly and vant of the company, and that even of grossly unjust. His noble friend seemed those servants, no one who had not been to admit that it would be improper to pro12 years actually resident in India, could duce them as a ground of crimination be appointed to any place of which the against lord Wellesley, and he was glad emoluments exceeded 4,000l. per annum. that he coincided with him even thus far; Proceeding on this idea, the court of di- but let us consider whether they would not rectors framed a dispatch, censuring and operate against him in an unjust and opannulling as illegal, the appointment of a pressive manner. First, he might congentleman not in the service, to be deputy tend that these papers were not strictly governor of Oude. The board of controul official: but suppose they were, was the rejected the dispatch, and wrote a letter character of a man, under accusation, to to the court of directors, justifying the ap-be weighed down even by official papers? pointment as legal and proper. Copies Look at the common judicial proceedings both of the rejected dispatch, and of the of the country, with which every person answer from the board of commissioners, were moved for in this house, and I think by a member of the late board of commissioners, and were ordered without any objection. I am not aware of any objection to the production of the paper now moved for, that was not applicable to the production of the other. On these grounds, sir, I think it right to support the present to apply this to the present case; whose motion for papers, as I have done every former motion made for India papers when I have been present in the house, in order that every information that can be derived from papers relating to transactions, in the consequences of which the public is deeply interested, may be fully and impartially before the house.

must be more or less acquainted; would it be endured that the general opinion should be stated as a ground of crimination against a person on trial? Nay, would not the publication of any thing like this against his character be a reason for putting off the trial, instead of being admitted as evidence before a jury? Now

opinions were they calling for? those of the court of directors. But they, by law, could only communicate their opinions to the board of controul; though, certainly, he did not mean to say that this was a good law. This, however, was at present the only way in which they could give their opinion; and when they were obliged Mr. Secretary For declared that it was to sign a thing which they strongly disapwith regret he heard that such a motion as proved, their only remedy was that which the present was to be made; and more was open to all in such a situation, namely, especially that it was to be made by two an application to parliament. But, bepersons for whom he had a great respect sides, what were these directors? They (Mr. Huddlestone and Mr. R. Thornton). were the persons supposed to be most conBut the pain which he felt was not a little in- versant with the affairs of India; and, both creased when he found it was to be made by on account of their knowledge of the subthe noble lord near him (Hamilton) for whom ject, and their respectability as a body, he had the highest esteem, whose personal justly considered as a high authority. But regard he would wish to conciliate, and the higher their authority, so much the with whom he would always desire to cul- worse would it be to produce these papers tivate a political connection; for to him when a man was under accusation. that noble lord's ideas respecting the consti- was so clear, on every well founded princitution, and his sentiments on political sub-ple of jurisprudence, that he was amazed jects in general, appeared to rest on prin- that it could escape the attention of any ciples so just, and well founded, that it person. Now, in this case, there were gave him the greatest concern to differ some particular circumstances. The first from him, even in the application of those was, the anomalous situation of the diprinciples to any particular point. But he thought that the present question ought to be considered with a view to the judicial enquiry about to come before the house, and therefore our attention ought to be directed to justice alone. Now, viewing the matter in this light, he could not reconcile

This

rectors. They were bound to execute the commands of others. In every other department, when any thing was proposed to a person which appeared to him of the most, mischievous tendency, he might refuse to sign it; but they were by law bound to sign, whether they approved or not, and

were the directors to support themselves at present by a case, of which they had not complained at the proper time? He hoped that neither of these things could be per mitted. But then it was said that these papers were not intended to criminate lord Wellesley. One said that they were intended to criminate neither the board of con troul, nor lord Wellesley, and his noble friend wanted them as a general piece of information. But then they would have that effect collaterally, if not directly, and therefore they ought not to be produced. We were not at present considering the situation of the finances, the fabric of the government of India. These might come under review, and then the papers might be produced.

their condition was more anomalous than what was the difference, since they were that of any class of men in Europe, even already before the public? Truly the diffeunder the most despotic government, Therence was, that the commons were to pass only remedy they had, when they found judgment in this enquiry, and not the pubthat the board of controul insisted upon lic. Now, as far as this argument had been. measures, which to them appeared of the used, it would weigh more the other way. most dangerous tendency, was to come If you only want information, you have and state their case to the house. Last that, and as to the authority, the greater session, a motion was made for a letter of that was, so much the worse for the arguthe secret committee, which could properly ment and the person accused; for this be considered only as a letter of the board dispatch contained a strong case against of controul. It was fairly moved for, be-the marquis Wellesley. What convenience cause an individual, when his conduct was could result from its production? He saw called in question, might justly enough none, but the contrary. Were the accusers call for such documents as shewed the sub-to stand behind the East-India Co., or sequent approbation of his superiors, he said of his superiors, because though you (the directors) remonstrated with the board of controul, you did not, it seems, think the matter of sufficient importance to come to the house and state your case, which, if you were aggrieved, was a plain and obvious course for you to pursue. Another point was, that the directors probably wished to defend themselves. This was not the stage for that. When the affair of the marquis Wellesley was decided upon, and when the papers now called for could have no influence on his case, then they might fairly be moved for. But it would be an intolera. ble hardship to an accused person, if you could say that you did not call for such papers to injure him, but to defend your He knew that his noble own characters. The answer would be, friend, amongst all the excellent qualities that he had a great regard for your charac- he possessed, would regret to do a wrong ters, but, in defending them, you were not thing, and he would ask him how he would entitled to injure him. There was ano- feel, if a fterwards these papers should, if ther point to be considered. If the actions now produced, be used in a manner which of lord Wellesley were such as they were he would disapprove? Nothing at present represented to be, then the papers would would be lost in point of information, and operate against the board of controul, and though these papers might be useful at anotheir influence would be increased when it ther period, they would just now be attenwas found that the board had rejected the ded with the most injurious effects. Though better counsel of the directors. But, till it was not very usual to move the previous the conduct of that board came under con- question on motion for papers, yet, as there sideration, the papers ought not to be pro-was nothing in the forms of the house to duced. If, indeed, the directors had come prevent it, he would move it in the present at the time when the transaction took instance. place, and stated their opinion to the Mr. Johnstone said, that the degree of house, and their situation, that would have astonishinent under which he rose to present been a different matter. With regard to himself to the house, after what had just the point of information, the public had fallen from the right hon. secretary, scarceit, and it was of course impossible that itly left him the power of utterance. When could be kept from members of parlia-that right hon. gent. and his friends were ment, who formed a part of that public. on the opposition side of the house, he alIt was not, therefore, for information that ways understood them to be not only the the other papers were called for, but on warm friends, but the loud and strenuous account of the authority which they would advocates for investigation on Indian afhave in the enquiry before the house. But fairs. They had repeatedly asserted, and VOL. VI. 3 G