Cobbett's Parliamentary Debates, During the ... Session of the ... Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the Kingdom of Great Britain ...

the commerce flourishing; and that the last act of lord Teignmouth's administration, added a permanent resource, by the treaty of Oude, to the company of 300,000l. a year; that the whole interest of the debt was little more than 500,000l.; that every thing was peace; that the princes were attached

I have no doubt that they will say, that the papers, on which I ground my claim to the printing of the charge, have been produced incidentally. To such persons I mean to give no reply; but to the honest and independent members of the house, I shall briefly anticipate such an assertion, which, by the bye, would be very unfair to make; to our government; and no native of Hinfor even had the papers appeared inciden- dostan had cause to complain of injustice; tally, which however they did not, I should that no bullion had been sent to Bengal have conceived myself entitled in perfect during the whole of sir John Shore's gofairness to make use of such proofs, and if vernment; that during the government I felt inclined, to ground a new and spe- of lord Wellesley, he obtained supplies cific criminal charge upon them. I ask from England in specie to the amount of the house to recollect, in what manner the nearly 4,000,000/; that during the same proof was obtained which induced the period he drew upon England for 3,800,000%. house to adduce the additional article of that he unlawfully seized large sums of the Impeachment against lord Melville? They money destined for China, in direct oppowere obtained perfectly accidentally by the sition to the orders of the court of direcmanagers, and in a manner somewhat ob-tors; that by false representations he objectionable. The documents, however, tained from the super-cargoes at Canton, contained in No. 8, of the India papers, several large sums destined for commerhave been produced upon my own motion,cial purposes; that the sums so obtained, and for the express purpose of criminating at an enormous expence to the company, the late governor-general. In the article instead of applying them for the purposes of charge I have inserted various breaches to which he represented he was to approof the law, the total and entire failure upon priate them, Mr. Paull said they had been the part of the East-India Co., of the en-expended on the college, the body guard, gagements made to the public when they the government house, for the shew and obtained their charter. I have stated various disobedience of orders along with these violations of the law, complete proofs of all such allegations are contained in the papers now upon the table. I confess it was my intention, on these papers, to have made a motion for a select com-represented the finances as most flourishing, mittee; but in an interview that I had with public credit higher than ever it was known the right hon. the secretary of state, he in India before, and that in fact he would stated various reasons to me against such a require no farther aid from England. The proceeding; the strongest however, was, letter, Mr. Paull said, was dated Feb. 11, that he would oppose it. I had therefore 1800, addressed to the super-cargoes at no alternative, but dropping the cause of China; the paragraph was in these words: the public and of justice, or pursuing the "Unless early relief be afforded to the course I have adopted. I shall not trouble finances of India by a large supply of bulthe house with a detail of all the papers lion, the public credit will suffer; the incontained in No. 8; they however contain vestment in India for the present year complete proof of eight of the allegations, must be reduced to a low scale, and I enand exhibit a scene of the grossest misre-tertain the most serious apprehensions that presentations, and disregard of every prin- I may not be able to provide the necessary ciple of truth and honour; they exhibit means of exertion against the common another instance of what talent was redu-enemy." In consequence of this represenced to, after iniquity, oppression, and in-tation he obtained from the super-cargoes justice had become familiar to the humour 125,000l. at an expence to the company of the marquis of Wellesley.-Mr. Paull of upwards of 12,000l. and which, instead went very much at large into the financial of retaining for the defence of India, he and political situation of India. When squandered in the shameful manner stated lord Wellesley took charge of the govern- in the charge. Mr. Paull concluded a ment in 1798, the debt he then stated to long speech by a picture of India when lord have been little more than 11,000,000l., Wellesley was superseded by lord Corn

splendour, and for the actual expences of the governor-general himself. One paragraph from the papers he begged leave to read to the house, which would shew what credit was due to the assertions of the late governorgeneral, who, in the close of the year 1799,

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Notwithstanding, said he, the more than a dead letter, which it was probills thus drawn, the specie remitted, and per to revive or animate, by having the the supplies obtained from China, in con- charges printed, in order to enable that sequence of false and fraudulent repre- house fairly to judge of it. When a memsentations, and in violation of law, the ber of that house, actuated by manly and debt exceeded 31,000,000l.; 5,000,000l. honourable feelings, stepped forward in a more were to be provided for the next public cause of the greatest importance to year; loans were open all over India; the the Empire at large, and when that memtreasury empty; and, in consequence of theber was not only unsupported but discouprofuse, extravagant, reprehensible, and il-raged, he felt himself impelled to assist in legal expenditure of the public money, lord bringing this business to light. It would Cornwallis was forced once more to seize make a great impression on the public; upon the treasures destined for China.- and that house ought to consider what the So much for the finances. And as to the consequence must be if they refused to enpolitical situation of India, we were at war tertain or consider this question. He had with Holkar; not certainly at peace with lately, he said, been led to enquire more Scindia; a confederacy forming to drive us than he did before, into the state of our from India; and the universal estrange-affairs in India; and the result of his invesment of all descriptions of the natives-the tigation was, that he found in the admiconsequence, said Mr. Paull, of the system nistration, many great and manifold evils, of lord Wellesley; a system of iniquity, of which, instead of assisting the finances of oppression, and blood; adopted on his ar- this country, must now become a burthen rival, and pursued, undeviatingly, until, to it; and in fact, we were already advanfortunately for mankind, the arrival of lord cing money as a loan to the company. It Cornwallis drove him from Asia.-Mr. was therefore a considerable hardship to Paull moved, "that the charge be now the people of England, to transmit its printed;" which motion was seconded by wealth to a foreign country, where it was Mr. Martin, the member for Tewkesbury. not properly taken care of. He was of the Dr. Laurence said, that whatever might opinion given some time since by an hon. have been heretofore his opinion touching gent. Mr. Francis), that the members of the propriety of printing the charges, be- that house would soon have to protect the fore all the evidence in support of them finances of this country against the distreswas laid on the table, from what he had ses of India. The alarming state of emheard this night from the hon. gent. who barrassment to which the affairs of India had just sat down, he must second his mo- were brought, shewed there was a latent tion, and support him if he persisted in it. gangrene somewhere, which ought to be At the same time he begged leave to sub-probed, and the danger, if possible, obvimit it to his own discretion, whether it might ated, which brought that quarter of the not better answer his purpose, and less ex-empire to the brink of ruin, before that cite opposition, if he were to postpone his motion for a few days, until the whole of the papers, in support of the charges, should be laid upon the table.

Mr. Paull said, it would be useless for him to postpone a motion now, which he should feel himself again under the necessity of pressing upon the house, in the course of a day or two.

The Marquis of Douglas said, he lamented his not being in the house on the former discussion, when he thought the house had not very properly rescinded the order it had before made for the printing of the charge. It was true, that the charge rested at present upon little more than the assertion of an hon. member, who, though unsupported and unprotected, made no motion which the proceedings of the house did not tolerate; but at present it was no

ruin was complete, and should have plunged the country into fresh difficulties; for he considered India, which we were lately taught to view as a healthful and promising child of the parent state, as now exhausted by disease, clinging to the breast of the mother country, and ready to extract the last drop of her vital nutriment to prevent its own dissolution.

Mr. Sheridan observed that the hon. gent., in renewing his charges that day, had expressed a hope that he should not meet, from certain individuals, a repetition of the harsh treatment he had experienced on a former night. He was at some loss to understand to what it was the bon. member made this allusion. He was sure that nothing of an improper nature would have been suffered to pass without the interposition of the chair. Who the in

of little consequence which way it was decided. As to any communication which the hon. gent. had with him, he had given him his opinion, and on good grounds, that he was adopting a very injudicious mode of proceeding.

Mr. Paull explained. He said, that out of 99 papers, for which he had moved, only 11 were produced; of these, only 3 were immediately relevant to his purpose. The Bhurtpore papers were not presented, nor any others that he moved for, except those relative to Oude.

gent. who seconded it, and not pressed it on the house. He also conceived that it was of no importance whatever, whether the charge was or was not now printed; but he thought it was always the object of the accuser, to bring forward his charge and his evidence at the same time; what evi dence was sufficient, lay with him entirely to determine. In the present case, therefore, he considered the hon. mover as the best judge, whether the evidence on the table were sufficient, and he would therefore move for the printing of the paper.

draw his motion, he thought a motion for the order of the day would be most applicable, and concluded by moving the previous question.

Sir A. Wellesley said, that the practice of Mr. Bathurst was of opinion, that this parliament in such cases had already been motion ought not to have been pressed, shewn to be, that the evidence should ge- but he did not think because it was pressed, nerally, if not always, precede the charges, that therefore the house should agree to it. and he saw no necessity for deviating from He did not pretend to say, that there were that rule on the present occasion; though no cases in which charges might be produhe admitted, that every case should stand ced before evidence, but he believed there upon its own peculiar merits. The charge were none except those with which, as they of the hon. gent, against his noble relation, originated at home, the members were acwas for squandering the money of the East-quainted. The hon. gent. then said, that India Co. in unnecessary purposes of per- as the hon. mover would not agree to withsonal splendour; but the papers hitherto produced (those of Oude) applied to charges of which as yet he had given no notice. With regard to the money taken from the Canton treasury, his answer to it was, that this and other proceedings which were adverted to, had received the approbation of the court of directors, and that if the money were so disposed of, there was a proportionate increase of assets both at home and abroad. As to the observation, that he himself was implicated in some of the proceedings, his short reply was, that what he did in India, was in obedience to the orders he had received; and for the manner of that obedience, and its immediate result, he was ready to answer, either to that house, or to any other tribunal in the realm.

Dr. Laurence adverted to the precedents which had been quoted in the course of the debate, particularly that of Mr. Hastings, none of which he conceived bore on the present case. He declared, that his sense of the business would have been, for the hon. gent. who made the motion, to have withdrawn it, and waited until the evidence was before the house; but, as he had not thought proper to do that, he could not, as the business now stood, see any good reason against printing the charge.

Lord H. Petty was inclined to think, that it would have been much better if the hon. gent. who made the motion, had agreed to the first suggestion of the learned VOL. VI.

Mr. Corry seconded the motion, as, he said, it would put the parties into a relative situation, one with another. It would be no hardship to the hon. gent. who made the original motion, as the papers to substantiate the charge were not before the house; and it would appear as if the house of commons were resolved to support him throughout, if the paper were allowed to be printed.

Mr. W. Smith said, it appeared to him to be rather an irregular mode to print the charge before all the evidence was produced. The very circumstance of some of the evidence being already before the house, was a reason against it, and he therefore would vote against the original motion.

Mr. Johnstone, in part, coincided in opinion with the right hon. secretary of state. He, however, differed with him in many essential points; and, after arguing the question for some time, he declared that he felt himself precluded altogether from gi ving any vote on the occasion.

Mr. Grant said, that if the question be fore the house were to be influenced by the expectation of having the papers which were moved for, laid upon the table in a short time, he thought it a duty to state his opinion that this expectation could not be fulfilled The court of directors was always

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ment of precedents stated by an hon. the word. If any of the ridicules and dismember, he would admit it was a good couragements to which his right hon. friend? principle, upon which, in general, to act; had alluded, though he knew he did not but then, precedents should only operate refer to him particularly, were employed in cases precisely similar. It was proper on this account, he, for his part, did not first, to read the charges themselves; but repent what had been done. The hon. to read the evidence first, and the charges gent. had that day, as usual, made a long afterwards, would be to invert the regular speech, and certainly it would have reorder of proceeding. Besides, if memquired a mind of no ordinary sagacity to bers were to wait for the accumulation of discover the connection between things so such a mass of documents on both sides, remote and apparently so little connected before they commenced their own consi- with the subject as those which he had inderation, it was very possible that mem- troduced. He had, however, discovered, bers would be discouraged from investiga- some papers which bore on his charge. ting such voluminous masses of matter. Now some said that these papers would be The right hon. secretary concluded by vo-ready soon, and others affirmed that they ting for the hon. gent.'s motion, though he could not be ready for some time. The certainly could have wished him to act by present mode, however, was regular, though the temperate suggestion of his hon. and he thought that a different one would be learned friend. far more eligible. But here again the hon. Mr. Secretary For said, he should vote gent. demanded that the charge should be for printing the charge. There was no printed. This was a sort of language to great difference between himself and his which the house would not listen with rt. hon. friend (Mr. Windham) on the gene- great complacency, in a matter where its ral principle. He agreed with him, that own convenience alone was to be consi any member of the house had a right to dered. The demand then was indeed inpresent a charge. He would go farther, consistent with the principle on which and allow that it was regular that a day papers were printed by the house. "Deshould be appointed for its consideration. mand," he did not say "publish," thoughcerBut now they were on a question, whether tainly it appeared as if this had been the it should be printed without evidence, or hon. gent.'s object. But he hoped that scarcely any notice of evidence. He would the house would not be led to print papers not even there differ with his right hon. upon any improper pretences. He would, friend, as to the right, but at the same however, vote for the printing of the time when a member did this, without there charge, not because it was demanded, but being any necessity for it, he must say that because it would suit the convenience of his mode of proceeding was injudicious; the house. Now; one word as to the geand that he would have done much better, neral way in which this business had had he waited for the evidence. He might been conducted. All the papers moved then say,' there is the evidence, and you for had been granted, except one which may compare the evidence with the charge,' had been called for by a noble friend of and know how far it is well founded. Now his (lord A. Hamilton). He wished that it was possible, undoubtedly, that a member in calling for papers, might be told when his object was not exactly understood, "bring forward your charge, otherwise we will not grant you your papers." But, in this case, a variety of motions for papers had been made, none of which had been over-ruled, at least none that had been made by the hon. gent. himself. But he might have proceeded in another way, and have said, "there is the charge, and, to prove this, such and such papers are necessary." But the hon. gent, moved for a variety of papers first, and then brought forward a charge to which scarcely one of them applied. This conduct he certainly thought preposterous in the truest sense of

the house would arrange some mode by which all the various papers could be soon procured, that the house might be allowed some repose; for it was certainly unpleasant to have papers continually called for, and opinions given, and questions debated on every occasion. He wished to know when all the papers would be moved for. Mr. Burke, in the course of his proceed ings in preparing the way for the charge against Mr. Hastings, carefully abstained from provoking debates on the merits, before the matter was fully before the house, and he wished that his conduct had been imitated in the present instance. As to the question now before the house, he agreed with his right hon friend that it was

draw his motion, he thought a motion for the order of the day would be most applicable, and concluded by moving the previous question.

Sir A. Wellesley said, that the practice of Mr. Bathurst was of opinion, that this parliament in such cases had already been motion ought not to have been pressed, shewn to be, that the evidence should ge- but he did not think because it was pressed, nerally, if not always, precede the charges, that therefore the house should agree to it. and he saw no necessity for deviating from He did not pretend to say, that there were that rule on the present occasion; though no cases in which charges might be prodube admitted, that every case should stand ced before evidence, but he believed there upon its own peculiar merits. The charge were none except those with which, as they of the hon. gent, against his noble relation, originated at home, the members were acwas for squandering the money of the East-quainted. The hon. gent. then said, that India Co. in unnecessary purposes of per- as the hon. mover would not agree to withsonal splendour; but the papers hitherto produced (those of Oude) applied to charges of which as yet he had given no notice. With regard to the money taken from the Canton treasury, his answer to it was, that this and other proceedings which were adverted to, had received the approbation of the court of directors, and that if the money were so disposed of, there was a proportionate increase of assets both at home and abroad. As to the observation, that he himself was implicated in some of the proceedings, his short reply was, that what he did in India, was in obedience to the orders he had received; and for the manner of that obedience, and its immediate result, he was ready to answer, either to that house, or to any other tribunal in the realm.

Dr. Laurence adverted to the precedents which had been quoted in the course of the debate, particularly that of Mr. Hastings, none of which he conceived bore on the present case. He declared, that his sense of the business would have been, for the hon. gent. who made the motion, to ⚫ have withdrawn it, and waited until the evidence was before the house; but, as he had not thought proper to do that, he could not, as the business now stood, see any good reason against printing the charge.

Lord H. Petty was inclined to think, that it would have been much better if the hon. gent. who made the motion, had - agreed to the first suggestion of the learned VOL. VI.

Mr. Grant said, that if the question be fore the house were to be influenced by the expectation of having the papers which were moved for,. laid upon the table in a short time, he thought it a duty to state his opinion that this expectation could not be fulfilled. The court of directors was always

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Cobbett's Parliamentary Debates, During the ... Session of the ..., Volume 6