Senator CUMMINS. And these reports will also show or the notice will show the book value or the investment account as shown by the railroads? Commissioner AITCHISON. If they do not, that will appear in the accounting report, where the general balance sheet is set up, and I can get that figure and put it in for you. Senator CUMMINS. I wish you would furnish that. Senator KELLOGG. To what roads does that apply? Commissioner AITCHISON. That applies to the Texas Midland, the Atlanta, Birmingham & Atlantic, the Kansas City Southern System, the Winston-Salem Southbound, and the New Orleans, Texas & Mexico. The following statement contrasts the Mexico, and Elgin, Joliet & Eastern so-called book values or investment accounts of certain carriers with sums reported by the engineering and land sections of the Bureau of Valuation of the Interstate Commerce Commission, covering the reproduction cost, new, of road and equipment and the present value of lands as measured by the value of similar adjoining or adjacent lands. These figures are compiled by the Bureau of Valuation from the tentative reports made in the six cases mentioned. As the result of conference between the bureau and the carriers, certain joint recommendations have been made which will slightly increase the reproduction and land-value figures as reported and carried into the table, if the recommendations are accepted by the commission. Kansas City Southern Ry. Co. (including Texarkana & Fort Smith Ry. Co. Kansas City Southern subsidiaries (including Fort Smith & Van Buren Winston-Salem Southbound Ry. Co. New Orleans, Texas & Mexico R. R. Co. Total. $23,808, 772 $53,325,751 4,776,769 2, 155, 316 3,618, 694 5,798,710 2,748, 171 The foregoing statement does not show certain lands reported by the land section as noncarrier lands. In some cases these lands, or parts of them, are included in the investment account of the carrier, showing investment in road and equipment. The present value of these lands is reported by the land section as follows: Atlanta, Birmingham & Atlantic R. R. Co-- Georgia Terminal Co____. Alabama Terminal R. R. Co.... Texas Midland R. R... Subsidiary companies named in preceding table_ Kansas City Southern Ry. Co- Winston-Salem Southbound Ry. Co--- New Orleans, Texas & Mexico R. R. Co-. Elgin, Joliet & Eastern R. R. Co-- Chicago, Lake Shore & Eastern Ry. Co___. $145, 203 853, 811 166, 438 10,342 132, 312 133, 369 105, 310 15,759 524, 074 137,206 The classification of these lands as between carrier and noncarrier and the present values as reported will be changed somewhat if the joint recommendations of the Bureau of Valuation and the carriers are accepted in certain of the cases mentioned. Senator KELLOGG. Do you consider those roads fairly representative of the railroads of the United States? Commissioner AITCHISON. Oh, no. Senator KELLOGG. Then they would not give us any idea at all of what the other roads would be worth? Commissioner AITCHISON. The Kansas City Southern is the most representative and the Winston-Salem Southbound is the most recently constructed. Senator KELLOGG. But you do not consider them fairly representative of the main mileage of the United States? Commissioner AITCHISON. Not of the class 1 roads, although some of them are class 1 roads. Senator KELLOGG. The class 1 roads include 97 per cent of the roads? Commissioner AITCHISON. Yes. Senator KELLOGG. Then we could not form much of an idea as to the value of the railroads from those on which you have completed the valuation? Commissioner AITCHISON. Not from those concerning which tentative reports have been given. Senator POINDEXTER. And do these reports include as one of the items the original cost? Commissioner AITCHISON. Where that is obtainable. Senator CUMMINS. Your reports will show the book value or the investment accounts of all the railroads, will they not? Commissioner AITCHISON. Yes, sir. Senator CUMMINS. That is, your annual reports? Commissioner AITCHISON. Yes, sir. May I be permitted to say this, in connection with your question as to the time when the valuation will be completed: Manifestly a different question will be presented as to procedure and time if the work which the Bureau of Valuation is doing is to be used for Government purposes in a condemnation suit. Section 19a of the act to regulate commerce provides that the result shall be prima facie evidence in proceedings before the commission and in actions in court arising out of the act to regulate commerce. That manifestly does not include condemnation cases, and consequently it would require legislation to make the findings of the commission prima facie evidence in condemnation cases. But on the other hand, if the work of the Bureau of Valuation were desired by the Government, so that our experts would be called as witnesses on behalf of the Government by the United States district attorney who might be trying the case, manifestly much of this dėlay I spoke about in getting submissions in cases tried as lawsuits would be entirely avoided, and much of the report writing and the service of notices and the filing of protests and the taking of testimony on the exceptions would be done in court in the first instance rather than before the commission. Senator CUMMINS. The whole point of my inquiry is this: Assume we had to ascertain as nearly as we could the value of the use of all the railroad property in the United States, how soon could we expect a result if the Interstate Commerce Commission was created as a tribunal for the trial of condemnation cases? Commissioner AITCHISON. Many of the important roads of the country we could go in on by the time the parties were ready to try it. We could not go in on the Pennsylvania, because that is one system on which a comparatively small amount of work has been done, and we could not on the Baltimore & Ohio. But take the Rock Island, or the Santa Fe, or the Great Northern, or the Western Pacific, or the Boston & Maine, I think I might safely say that the field work is substantially all done. Senator CUMMINS. There is no difficulty in reaching a result within a year or two? Commissioner AITCHISON. As to those carriers? Senator CUMMINS. As to the value of the use of this property which the Government has taken over. Commissioner AITCHISON. I would not want to undertake it as to the Pennsylvania System within that time, because in the program which was long ago outlined, it appears that the Pennsylvania Road and the Baltimore & Ohio did not come on early enough, so that the field work is at the stage I have indicated as to those carriers. Senator CUMMINS. In that event, of course, the railroad companies would be quite as anxious as the Government to speed the trial of the cases, I take it. Commissioner AITCHISON. As time goes on and methods are developed here, I do not think we are going to have each case tried as a lawsuit after the first cases. Already there is much more of spirit of accommodation than there was a few months ago, and the carriers and the forces of the commission are getting together on joint recommendations, subject, of course, to the approval of the commis sion. Senator KELLOGG. You do not think it would be possible for the commission, using the information it is procuring from the valuations, to arrive at the value of the use of all the railroads in the United States during the next two years? Commissioner AITCHISON. I would not want to say that as to all the railroads. Senator KELLOGG. The railroads have been taken over now, have they not? Commissioner AITCHISON. I believe so. Senator KELLOGG. Then there is some obligation on the part of the Government to pay for the use of these properties, is there not? Commissioner AITCHISON. That is my recollection of the Consti tution. Senator KELLOGG. Do you imagine that the question of compensation could wait two or three years while we are having the railroads valued? Commissioner AITCHISON. I do not see how, if the legislature, acting on its own sense of responsibility, refuses to make an appropriation, there can be compensation, because as I read the opinions, the question of compensation ultimately depends on the sense of justice of the legislature. Senator KELLOGG. Do you think Congress should wait for this valuation? Commissioner AITCHISON. You are asking me what my judgment is as to the basis of compensation which should be made, and how it should be made, and I want to respectfully submit that I am an administrative officer, and I am not charged with judicial functions, and I understand this is a judicial question. Senator KELLOGG. I was asking you about something you testified to in answer to Senator Cummins. Commissioner AITCHISON. I was not urging any course of action. Senator KELLOGG. Has the commission considered any plan of compensating the railroads for the use of their property? Commissioner AITCHISON. The commission has not, as a commission. Doubtless individual commissioners have had it in mind. Senator KELLOGG. You are not ready to make any recommendations? Commissioner AITCHISON. No, sir; not myself; nor has the commission considered it. Senator KELLOGG. I did not understand you to say you thought the question of arriving at the amount of compensation should await the final valuation of the roads. Commissioner AITCHISON. I have not attempted to pass any judgment upon that, but simply endeavored to give Senator Cummins the best information I could as to the facts. Senator KELLOGG. As I understood you, you said you thought the railroad lawyers had delayed the valuation. Commissioner AITCHISON. I think the final submission of the first case, unquestionably, is due to that. Senator KELLOGG. The valuation is going on; the inventories have gone on; they have nothing to do with that? Commissioner AITCHISON. The field work has gone on, but translating that into final results has been held up until the first case has been decided. The land department does not know now whether to include the areas of streets longitudinally occupied by carriers, because the commission has not passed on that question. Senator KELLOGG. Have they done more than to argue the questions before the commission? Commissioner AITCHISON. No; but they have taken a good deal of time about that and filed extremely voluminous briefs. Senator KELLOGG. Is it not their duty to fully present the question to the commission of the value of the properties? Commissioner AITCHISON. Let me explain Senator KELLOGG. Answer my question. Commissioner AITCHISON. Unquestionably it is the lawyer's duty to present to the tribunal the interests of his client fairly and as expeditiously as the case will permit. In January, 1916, extensive argument was had upon many of these questions, which have since been argued and reargued two or three times. Senator TOWNSEND. May I ask you there, could not the commission prevent that; could not the commission fix a limit of time when these arguments could be repeated? Commissioner AITCHISON. Inasmuch as I took part in those arguments, I would rather be excused from discussing the action of the gentlemen who are now my colleagues, and whom I think might possibly have indicated that they had enough of it. Senator TOWNSEND. I am interested in what you are saying, but you have charged the railroad attorneys with this fault, and I am wondering if there were not two parties to that difficulty, the members of the commission and the attorneys themselves. Commissioner AITCHISON. The commission doubtless has been very desirous to hear everything they had to say, recognizing the great importance of the matter, and they have not shut anybody out who had anything to say. Senator WATSON. I believe you were the counsel on the other side in some of the cases? Commissioner AITCHISON. I did not recognize that I was on any side. I was there representing the States and appearing as a friend of the commission. Senator WATSON. I think you said you were counsel. Commissioner AITCHISON. Counsel for the States. The States by law are brought in as parties in the proceedings. Senator WATSON. You did not construe that your position was adverse to the railroads? Commissioner AITCHISON. No, sir. My instructions were to do what I could to aid the commission. Senator POINDEXTER. What, in general, was the cause of the slowness of the proceedings before the Interstate Commerce Commission! Was that due to the commission being overburdened with work, or was that due to the system of procedure before the commission? Commissioner AITCHISON. I think it would be somewhat presumptuous of me to try to diagnose the difficulties that may have occurred, inasmuch as I have only been a member of the commission for a few months. The first 10 days I sat on the commission I had 3,000 pages in printed briefs put up to me. Senator POINDEXTER. I have had an idea myself that it was due to the commission having about twice as much work as they ought to have. You are familiar with the Inter-Mountain cases, so called, the long-and-short-haul cases? Commissioner AITCHISON. I know the cases are pending. Senator POINDEXTER. Do you know how long they have been pending? Commissioner AITCHISON. I think they have been pending since the Hepburn Act was passed, in one shape or another. Senator POINDEXTER. Even before that. How long has that been? Commissioner AITCHISON. Since 1906, I believe. Senator POINDEXTER. Is it not a fact that no order made by the Interstate Commerce Commission in those cases has ever been put into effect, as made? Commissioner AITCHISON. No; that is not the case. The class rates, and schedule A commodity rates, have long been adjusted with reference to the fourth section, by orders of the commission. I would suggest that Commissioner Clark could better answer those questions than myself. Senator POINDEXTER. I have been told that every order ever made in that case has been either entirely suspended or modified before it was put into effect, and it was a well-known fact that the issue still remains unsettled. Senator WATSON. I believe you stated that in your judgment the railway managers could not have handled this whole situation, could |