The explanation that is made to me by these for excluding members of the homes is that the members of the homes who are employed are employed in temporary capacities and for light work; that is, for just such work as they are able to do. Of course, if such an amendment should commend itself to the judgment of this committee, I assume that it would be the desire of the committee to have the advice of the legislative bureau with reference to its proper drafting; but in order that my thoughts may be before the committee in some concrete form, I am going to suggest that on page 3, after line 15, there may follow a paragraph something like this:

All officers and employees of the National Home for Disabled Volunteer soldiers, other than members of the homes, who shall be transferred to the Veterans' Bureau under the preceding paragraph of this act shall be also admitted en bloc to the Civil Service register, and thereafter such officers and employees so admitted shall have a civil service status subject to the rules and regulations applicable to the civil service.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you propose to admit them into the civil service without any sort of an examination, either competitive or noncompetitive?

Mr. BLAND. That is my thought and the thought of these gentlemen. I admit I am not sufficiently acquainted with the officers and members of all the homes to say positively that this would be a wise provision in all cases without some qualification, but in view of the recognized efficiency of these homes, I think the amendment a salutary one. The officers and employees of the particular home which is located in my district have impressed me as a high-class set of men; men who are trying to do their work honestly and efficiently. Of course you gentlemen do not know, and I do not know, the personnel of all the homes.

The CHAIRMAN. There is this difficulty with taking a set of employees who are not in the civil service and including them in the civil service en bloc, namely, that all civil-service employees are required to pay 32 per cent into the fund. Some provision would have to be made by which these would pay in their proportionate share into the civil-service fund in order to take them in.

Mr. BLAND. I appreciate the point that they would be entitled to the benefits of the retirement legislation. I did not have the retirement legislation in mind when I drew this amendment, for the reason that I know that in the proposed Lehlbach bill, which is now pending before the Civil Service Committee and which has been subject of investigation for the last day or two, there is a provision whereby these employees are given the benefit of the retirement legislation upon the payment of ascertainable sums, that is a certain per cent, beginning at a certain time. I know that provision is in the Lehlbach bill, and if it were desired to work out this retirement feature, I think it should be worked out along that line. I think it is provided in the Lehlbach bill for payment from 1920. I think it is provided that payment shall be from the time of the passage of the first retirement legislation so as to place these employees on an equality basis with all others. Those gentlemen of the union who talked with me were perfectly willing to accept a provision of that kind.

Mr. MONTET. That provision is not in the Dale bill.

Mr. BLAND. It is not in the Dale bill but it is in the Lehlbach bill.

Mr. SCHAFER. Is it your understanding that if this transfer was made and your amendment was incorporated in the bill, the agency having charge of the soldiers' homes under the transfer will still be able to weed out the personnel where it is found that some of the personnel was not up to the standard which is deemed necessary?

Mr. BLAND. I presume that would be true even under the civil service.

Mr. SCHAFER. In the Veterans' Bureau hospitals practically every head of an institution, in addition to being an executive, is a medical man, while in the national homes the governors of the homes are not medical men.

Mr. BLAND. That is true. There are medical men connected with them. I am frank to say to the gentleman that that phase of the problem has not appealed to me. That is a matter that would have to be worked out by this committee if this suggestion is deemed worthy of acceptance.

Mr. SCHAFER. Your idea is that there should be some provision in the bill so that all of the present employees of the national homes would not be removed from the Government service.

Mr. MONTET. So that they would not be able to cut out the good fellows and continue others.

Mr. BLAND. That is the idea; so that they could not dispense with the good men.

Now I would say in reference to consolidation or coordination, that I am not posted on that subject. I wish that this committee could visit many of the soldiers' homes. We have one soldiers' home here. I do not know the operation of the soldiers' home in Washington, but we have one pretty close to Washington, and that is, down in my district, at Hampton, Va. Persons leaving here at 6.30 o'clock in the evening arrive at Old Point at 6.30 the next morning, and they can go to the soldiers' home in about 10 minutes from Old Point. I know the governor there, and he is a most excellent man. I have had a number of criticisms and comments from men who are located in these homes. Just how meritorious they are, I do not know. Frequently the men who are criticizing will say to me, when Governor Thompson is mentioned, "We have no criticism to make of Governor Thompson. He is all right." I have thought that even without consolidation or coordination, and by closer attention to the management of the affairs of the homes, there could be improvement over the present régime. I think that could be brought about in part by an amendment to the general law which I have offered several times, and which is in line with one, I believe, which has been offered by the gentleman from Wisconsin. That amendment provides that the Board of Managers should be increased to such an extent as to provide one manager to be located near each of the homes. This would provide a local manager to whom the inmates might go with their complaints. This manager could make a personal investigation of these complaints. We know that at present the managers can not visit all of the homes, and make any careful investigation.

I will mention another thing about the operation of these homes. I have been told by some employees that there exists a system of charging the employees for rooms and quarters in such sums and to such an extent that the benefits of the Welch Act are practically denied to the employees. I have had a statement made to me that

rooms needed for inmates are being occupied by employees who are permitted to reside on the inside (and I do not know but what they are required to reside on the inside) and then a pretty large rental is made for those rooms with the result that the employees lose the benefit of the increased pay allowed them. At the same time persons desiring admission into the homes find the space taken for the employees.

The CHAIRMAN. They claim to have a higher class of efficiency in those homes?

Mr. BLAND. Yes.

Mr. SCHAFER. Even in the case where they have a family, living within 10 blocks of the home, they have to accept the assignment of some of those rooms, and have a deduction from their compensation?

Mr. BLAND. That is the trouble; and thus they have lost the benefit of the increased pay provided for them. These employees are in the anomalous position of being held to be Federal employees for some purposes, and not Federal employees for other purposes. In the case of the United States v. Thompson, decided in 1898 by the Supreme Court of the United States, they were held to be Federal employees; and yet in other respects they are denied the benefit of the legislation for the benefit of Federal employees, as for instance, retirement legislation.

I will mention another thing, while I am on my feet. Reference was made to the post funds. I think it would be well sometime for this or some other committee to examine the rules and regulations. that are in operation for these homes. For instance, the operation of these post funds is a question that has been brought to my attention at different times. I had some practical experience with that matter recently. A man died who was an inmate of the National Soldiers' Home; he left no children, but he had close relatives. His pension had all been turned over to the Soldiers' Home, and only a certain part of it had been allowed to him to spend. That guardianship was all right. A provision of that kind is satisfactory as long as the agency that is handling the expenditure is not the agency that is to benefit by the accumulation. It is dangerous, however, when the agency that is to manage the expenditure is the agency that is to profit from the accumulation. Of course some regulation is necessary because some of these fellows would go out and spend in a few days the full amount of their checks. Somebody would exert an influence over them and get the money away from them in a little while. It is necessary to have some protection for them. In the case I mentioned, however, it happened that when the man died there was a fairly large sum that had accumulated. He left some relatives; as I recall, there was an old colored woman who was his next of kin, very deserving, and who was very close to him. We thought that she was entitled to the money that had gone into the post fund; but they told me: Why, no; she is not in the class entitled to receive the money.

Mr. SCHAFER. Did he make a will?

Mr. BLAND. No, I do not think he did. At any rate, I took it up and I wanted to know whether she was denied this claim because of some regulation or because of existing law. I said that if it was legislation I proposed to introduce an amendment to cure it, and if

it was a regulation, I intended to propose new legislation to correct that. The claim of the party was then recognized.

The CHAIRMAN. It is legislation, is it not?

Mr. BLAND. I think it is a regulation; it may be; I do not know. Mr. SCHAFER. That is along the line of another case, where a man had made a will. A subcommittee of this committee carefully considered it and held that under the existing law the Board of Managers could not divert that money to the post fund.

Mr. MONTET. But as a matter of fact, that is governed by the law, is it not?

The CHAIRMAN. The law provides that if a man dies whithout heirs or does not leave a will, his estate goes into the post fund to be used for certain purposes.

Mr. MONTET. It also provides that without those contingencies, the money remains in the post fund?

Mr. BLAND. The trouble with the law is that the agency which controls the expenditures by the inmate from day to day and from week to week is the agency that is to profit in the end, and consequently the temptation exists-I will not say that it is always yielded to, but the temptation nevertheless exists-to increase the funds at the expense of the convenience of the soldier.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a very important point.
Mr. MONTET. The whole thing should be changed.
Mr. BLAND. I thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you.

I may say to the committee that my hope is to conclude these hearings to-morrow, so that we may go into executive session with a view to reading the bill for amendments and reporting it out. I have asked General Hines to make some further studies with reference to the proposed new set-up and possible savings as a result of consolidations. In his previous testimony he stated in a general way that consolidation would mean a saving of $10,000,000 in construction and approximately $1,500,000 in overhead; but he did not give us the data upon which he based those general conclusions. This testimony seemed important enough to request him to make a further study of these economies and be prepared to give us some definite information as to where he thinks these savings can be effected.

Mr. SWING. On that point, would it be possible to get a break-down of this statement made by Mr. Johnson upon the authority of some gentleman here that the Government agency consumes only 11 per cent of the veteran's money, and gave him the residue of it? I would like to have in the record some place a statement of what percentage of a dollar appropriated gets into the veteran's pocket, and I would like to have a statement showing the break-down of the Government's expenditures, so that we could see of what it is made up.

The CHAIRMAN. If you will call that to the attention of General Hines to-morrow, he might be able to give you that information. I think with his testimony we might well conclude our hearings.

Mr. SCHAFER. Mr. Chairman, has that assistant general counsel of the Veterans' Bureau who was before our committee in the last session, testifying on the preceding bill as to whether or not under the law we could transfer these national homes without losing title to some of the properties, completed his study to ascertain whether some of that property of the national homes would revert?

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The CHAIRMAN. As the gentleman from Wisconsin may recall, I was appointed as a committee of one at the last session of Congress to investigate the title to these homes, and to make a report. Before I concluded that investigation Congress adjourned. My recollection is that I came to the conclusion that there is nothing in these titles that will present any difficulty. I think we have a pretty fairly complete study on that, and perhaps it should be put in the hearings.

Mr. SCHAFER. It was my recollection that the attorney who was before the committee, the assistant counsel, was going to obtain certified copies or the original deeds and check them up and submit his statement to the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. It was believed at the time that some of these titles stood in the name of the United States, and some of them in the name of the national board. My recollection is that it turned out that they all stood in the name of the national board for disabled volunteer soldiers and that all that is necessary is to have the board transfer the title to the United States.

Mr. SCHAFER. A question arose, Mr. Chairman, whether there was a reservation in any of the deeds which would automatically make the property revert to the donor.

The CHAIRMAN. The properties donated can only revert in case the Government ceases to use them for home or hospitalization purposes, and as we intend to use them for such purposes, those reservations are not very material.

In any event this bill provides that the United States may institute condemnation proceedings to clear up anything that might be an obstacle to the transfer.

Mr. MONTET. I think this committee should have definite information as to the kind of titles that these national homes hold.

The CHAIRMAN. I think I have that information, and I will look it up between now and to-morrow, and let the committee know.

Mr. MONTET. Some of that property no doubt has become very valuable now, and if we did not have proper title and had to go to condemnation proceedings, it might possibly cost a great deal of

money.

The CHAIRMAN. I will look that up and put it in the record.

(Thereupon, at 12 o'clock m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, February 21, 1930, at 10 o'clock a. m.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE

EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS,
Friday, February 21, 1930.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. William Williamson (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, yesterday a question was raised as to the title to the lands upon which these various soldiers' homes stand. Some of you may recall that at the last session of Congress I was appointed as a committee of one to investigate these titles. I learned that General Wood had a complete record of these titles at Dayton, Ohio. At my request he prepared a summary of the titles which were later incorporated into the record.