making that statement, and we believe they have a very good set-up over there.

Mr. COCHRAN. It is also true, Captain Bettelheim, that the Veterans' Bureau operates under a law which requires the soldier to prove that his disability is of service origin?

Captain BETTELHEIM. That is so.

Mr. COCHRAN. While the pension law provides if a man is hit on the street by an automobile and injured and can not perform manual labor, he is entitled to a pension. The only thing he has to prove is that it is not the result of his own misconduct.

Captain BETTELHEIM. That is it.

Mr. COCHRAN. If my friend, Mr. Gasque, will support the bill I introduced giving the same benefits to World War veterans that are now extended to the Spanish War veterans, we will cure that situation.

Captain BETTELHEIM. I hope that passes, because it is the socalled Veterans of Foreign Wars, World War service pension bill, which you were good enough to introduce for us.

Mr. GASQUE. What I had in mind is this: I know there is a difference in compensation claims and pensions, but you take an insurance case where the beneficiary dies and take it up with the department—at least that has been my experience with the Veterans' Bureau—we get a letter that this has been adjudicated and there is so much money coming to the administrator of that estate, and in nearly every case it takes nearly six months to get it.

Mr. DALLINGER. Six months to a year.

Mr. GASQUE. Yes; six months to a year.

Mr. COLTON. I think you will find, though, that generally it is our fault.

Mr. GASQUE. I do not think so.

Captain BETTELHEIM. I think some of the time is consumed in the appointment of the administrator, the filing of his bond and obtaining the exemplification of the record. That would take the claimant a month's time.

Mr. GASQUE. I am not talking about the claimant; I mean after everything has been concluded. I have several cases now pending where they were notified last November that everything was all right and the money was ready, but I can not get the checks sent

out.

Captain BETTELHEIM. You get after one of the veterans' organizations and I will be pleased to help you.

Mr. GASQUE. That is why I say I hesitate to put anything under the Veterans' Bureau until I believe we will get better action. Mr. DALLINGER. We ought to decentralize the insurance cases. Mr. GASQUE. You might decentralize them, but how?

Mr. DALLINGER. The same as compensation cases have been decentralized.

Captain BETTLEHEIM. Mr. Chairman, we hope for an early enactment of this legislation.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much, Captain.

Some of the members of the committee will remember Mr. Thomas Kirby, national legislation chairman, Disabled American Veterans. He testified before the committee last year on a similar bill. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Kirby.

STATEMENT OF THOMAS KIRBY, NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE CHAIRMAN, DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS

SUMMARY OF MR. KIRBY'S STATEMENT

Former service men, as represented by the Disabled American Veterans, feel that the merging of veteran-relief agencies as proposed in this bill will mean improved administration and not only will save the Government money but will also directly benefit ex-service men.

The consolidation of three relief agencies following the World War, creating the Veterans' Bureau, has had a good effect, and it is thought that shortly following the proposed merger there will be a further improvement all along the line.

The provisions of the bill as it now stands are reasonably satisfactory to the Disabled American Veterans.

The CHAIRMAN. Just state your name, Mr. Kirby, and your official connection with your organization.

Mr. KIRBY. Thomas Kirby, legislative chairman, Disabled American Veterans.

I have been out of town the most of this week, Mr. Chairman, and just got back to-day, but I have discussed this consolidation with practically everybody that is closely interested in it-the service organizations in the Government-and I think generally we are behind everything that has been said, in principle, in favor of this legislation. As we expressed it last year, we feel that any merging of these various agencies will mean improved administration and not only will save the Government money but it will also be a direct benefit to the men.

We find one of the troubles with the present condition is that in the national homes and the Veterans' Bureau hospitals we can not get the contact and control over the homes that would be possible were they all under one head. The national homes central office, as you know, is in Dayton, Ohio, and when we have a complaint against the conditions in the national homes we have to go to the Veterans' Bureau and then the Veterans' Bureau goes to the national homes, or at least have to receive permission to send an investigator in there. Furthermore, my personal observation from having visited a great many of these places is that one of the weaknesses of the home is in the matter of the food. The allowances are different and I do not think the men in the homes are treated as well, so far as food is concerned, as they are in the Veterans' Bureau hospitals.

But it seems, as far as we can see, there is no good business reason against it. Of course, we realized at the start, when a man came out of the war, if he wanted vocational training, he went to the Federal board; if he wanted compensation, he went to the war risk; and if he wanted hospitalization, he went to the public health; and we were running around in circles all the time, so that the merging of the three agencies under the Veterans' Bureau has had a good effect; at least, you could put your finger on something, which you could not do previously. We think shortly after this proposed merger takes place there will be an improvement along that line, simply by reason of the fact that the Government's obligation to the man will be handled under one head, instead of going all over the map the way it

has been handled. I made quite a statement before the committee last year and that is, generally, our views as we see it.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you examined the provisions of the bill? Mr. KIRBY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the provisions of the bill as it now stands. reasonably satisfactory to the organization you represent?

Mr. KIRBY. I think so. Our position is somewhat different from the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the Spanish War veterans, because our membership is more closely limited to World War men. In order for a man to be eligible to be a member, he has to be disabled in line of duty and it is the only organization Congress has ever recognized in that group of disabled. But, in addition to being directly concerned for our own members, we are entirely sympathetic with the men of other wars on the theory that they fought our battles for us and we are consistently on record in our conventions as in favor of it ever since the idea was first proposed.

The CHAIRMAN. We are much obliged to you Mr. Kirby and thank you.

(The Committee thereupon, adjourned until Saturday, Jan. 11, 1930, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS,

Saturday, January 11, 1930.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. William Williamson (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The Secretary of the Interior has kindly consented to come before the committee this morning and give us his views on the bill we have under consideration. Mr. Secretary, you may proceed in your own way.

STATEMENT OF HON. RAY LYMAN WILBUR, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

SUMMARY OF MR. WILBUR'S STATEMENT

Consolidation, as proposed in H. R. 6141, is going too far and too fast. It is a word that bristles with antagonism. Coordination, which, over a period of years might establish a new unified policy toward all veterans without starting a revolution by disturbing people in established habits, is to be preferred. This will be a better plan than to use a method of compulsion that cuts off at a given point these agencies as to which there is so much sentiment. If you attempt to crystallize into legislation this kind of reorganization you are not going to get it. The general paths should be set out and the executive left to work the details out. Ultimate consolidation is inevitable and there are other related agencies that will be included.

The proposed merger is one of the most important in the whole Government since the sums involved are prodigious. The Veterans' Bureau is too large a force to be by itself. It should be brought into one of the existing departments under an assistant secretary, who would coordinate the activities of all veterans' agencies. Under this plan the system of appeals to the secretary would not be disturbed and veterans' affairs would have a representative in the Cabinet.

The lack of direct contact with the President is a handicap to an independent bureau. We are not yet ready to create a new department with a head of Cabinet rank.

man.

Over a period of months, a careful study of the general question of pensions and compensation was made by a commission appointed by President Hoover, on which Secretary Wilbur served as chairThe commission agreed on three things: To bring all of the forces of the Government for veterans' relief into coordination, not to seek uniformity in existing legislation, and to work toward future legislation based on some common plan. In its report, a copy of which was submitted to the Committee on Expenditures in the executive departments by the secretary, the commission recommended that the President be given the power by Congress to carry out such a plan. The commission, as such, did not draft a bill which would carry out these recommendations. At the request of the committee, the secretary drafted a bill in line with the report of the commission. (See p. 62.)

Secretary WILBUR. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee; a committee was appointed by the President, on which I was asked to serve as chairman, to make a study of the general question of pensions, compensation, and that sort of thing, and to recommend some procedure which would be worthy of consideration in connection with the future of this whole question of carring for the veterans of the various wars. I do not know whether you have this report before your committee or not.

The CHAIRMAN. We have not, but we would like to have it.

Secretary WILBUR. I will be very glad to leave a copy of it with

you.

Over a period of months, a very careful study was made. There were representatives on the committee from the Veterans' Bureau, the Pension Bureau and the National Home for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers.

It became quite clear we were in a field where there was a great deal of established legislation and procedure, and that in such bureaus as the Pension Bureau, where the service had gone on for nearly a century, there had been developed not only legislation, but methods and friends, who desired to retain whatever the Pension Bureau has. This was even more marked in the old soldiers' homes. The Veterans' Bureau, being a newer organization, was perhaps less clearly an entity that thought of itself as something that must be defended.

But here were three groups, representing different kinds of control of veterans' affairs, and the problem would seem insoluble at first, as if there could be no method of bringing them into any sort of coordination.

But as we went along we came to certain conclusions, and perhaps if I may sketch those to you, Mr. Chairman, I can give you a better basis for a discussion.

After these matters had been gone over in the committee meetings and you can see from this report that there was a study made, with charts showing exactly what has taken place over the years in the Pension Bureau and the Veterans' Bureau and also the expenditures the committee recommended that the President should be given by Congress the power to bring under a common head all forces

of the Government for veterans' relief, so as to obtain better coordination and so that a uniform program could be developed for the future; and if the President should so desire, the committee would submit a draft of a bill to bring this about. No request came from the President. No bill has been drafted by the committee; no bill to bring this into a uniform program has been recommended.

The greatest obstacle to be met was the diversity of legislation for the veterans of different wars. We thought at first it might be possible to have general legislation to cover the whole picture, but it was determined that was impossible. So many priorities and procedures had been developed that legislation for the veterans of 1812, the Mexican War, the Civil War, or the Spanish War would have to go on as it had; and legislation for the veterans of the World War would have to go on as it had. It was believed that no effort should be made to try to bring the legislation to a uniform basis, which would be too disturbing in every direction; but for the future, legislation should be worked out on some uniform program, as you will see from the report.

A recommendation was made that the power should be given by Congress to bring under a common head all the forces of Government relief. That does not necessarily mean consolidation, but it means a coordination of these forces under a common head.

The committee recommended that the President take immediate steps for coordination as follows:

Create a central coordination committee composed of representatives from the Pension Bureau, the National Home for Disabled Volunteer Soldiers, and the Veterans' Bureau, to meet at periodic times in Washington.

Its functions should be to continue on a permanent basis the conferences initiated by this committee as a clearing house for data promoting avoidance of overlaps, joint utilization of medical and hospital facilities, interchange of up-to-date statistics on facilities available, avoidance of unnecessary transportation, and so forth.

In other words, when we brought the representatives of these three agencies engaged in this work together, they discovered many ways in which they could have coordination, and cut down unnecessary expense.

The report of the committee also recommended:

Create district coordination committees, similar to the central committee, but functioning at strategic field points. Their local duties. should be similar to those of the central committee. They should be charged with the responsibility of furnishing current data to the central committee upon facilities available and possibilities of coordination. Effective teamwork must be secured by practical and informal cooperation in the field before it can be effected by formal direction from Washington.

One State might have a soldiers' home or a Veterans' Bureau hospital, with no coordination at all, and then when some one comes up for relief everything would have to go back to Washington. When, by a little interchange of facilities, a real, effective plan could be worked out.

The committee also recommended that this committee be continued in existence to make a further study of the results achieved by the