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should carry it through the committee, in order to present it to the House in the most perfect shape that he could bring it to. Now that it had come from the committee, he felt himself bound to state his objections to it, both in the details and in the principle. In considering the details of it, he could not avoid coinciding with his learned friend (the Lord Advocate of Scotland), in considering that the Bill proposed a most inconvenient union of different offices which should rather check each other, as the keeper of the great seal in Scotland, and the office of chief-justice general. He conceived that the idea of

members of parliament, in stimulating them to their duty, than to the certainty and the amount of the pecuniary compensation they might have to receive? The hon. mover had doubtless laboured a long time with a commendable perseverance, but he must say that he had yet done nothing. He had himself some objections to the mode pursued by the present Bill, and should have greatly preferred seeing every separate office put to the vote, and a Bill subsequently prepared conformably to that decision. But at least it was incumbent on those who talked of the necessity of remuneration, to shew the reality of the service. So far from believ-retaining many offices, and abolishing ing them to be always concomitant, he was convinced it would be difficult to point out ten in the whole list that partook of this character. The public money was too often given, rather as a consideration for accepting office, than for the labours or the services performed in it. Pensions were allowed on all occasions, however, to those who had filled office, let the period be ever so short; the mere fact of having been in office, being held an indisputable title to a sinecure or a pension for life. Looking at the present situation of the country, he knew not what consequence might ensue, if parliament did not exhibit to the people some proofs, that they had the interests of the country rather than their own at heart. He implored the House therefore, to attend carefully to the real circumstances of the times, and to evince a disposition to protect, and act a guardian part to the people, by adopting at once a vigorous system of retrenchment and ceconomy.

Mr. Vansittart opposed the Bill; every provision of which he contended would be inefficacious.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer objected so much to the Bill in its general principle, and in its sweeping operation, that he did not conceive it necessary for him to abstain any longer from delivering his opinion. He was sorry to hear that it was conceived by some gentlemen, that be had not acted fairly by the Bill in letting it go through the committee without observation, and delaying until the present stage of it to make any observations upon it. His opinion on the principle of the Bill was, however, well known, as he had never concealed it. As the House appeared to be in some measure pledged to the principle of the Bill, he wished at least, that the hon. gentleman (VOL. XXII.)

their salaries, was rather an extraordinary idea. In the same way the Bill had proposed to incorporate the office of auditorgeneral with that of president of the council, and saving the salary of the former place. Now he could not conceive upon what principle of justice the president of the council could be called on, without any additional remuneration, to take upon himself the responsibility of auditor of the exchequer also. The hon. gentleman said, that the latter office might be dis charged, as it had hitherto been discharged, by deputy. Now it appeared to him contrary to every principle of justice, and most absurd to make any man responsible for the conduct of a deputy not of his own appointing. The Bill provided, that the office of clerk of the pells should be united to that of keeper of the privy seal; and yet on a very recent occasion, where money was to be raised, it had appeared, that the deputy clerk of the pells was a check upon the privy seal. After the Bill had stated what offices were to be abolished in Ireland, there was the remarkable proviso, "provided always that no offices shall from henceforward be granted in reversion." Now if all the sinecures were to be abolished, it was evident that nothing would be left of which reversion could be given, as it was most evident that efficient offices could not be so granted. The clerk of the first fruits and the custos brevium were offices in which a fee-simple had been granted, and therefore it was quite useless to talk of making any alteration in them, while it was professed that all vested interests must be protected. As to the law offices now in the disposal of the chief justices, he conceived, that with the present chief justices these were vested interests which could not be taken away from them; and (4 F)

much more influence to the aristocratic and democratic part of our constitutionmuch more weight and influence, than all the existing offices, together with the increased patronage of the army, and the collection of the revenue, gave to the crown. Even the late debates and divisions which had taken place in that House upon col. M'Mahon's appointment, shewed pretty clearly that there was no such preponderating influence as the crown was supposed to have over parliament. There was no man who could say that the proposed measure would be a matter of indifference, as respecting the crown. It would certainly be a considerable diminution of the influence of the crown; and it was for the wisdom of parliament to say, whether it would not be a dangerous diminution of an influence which was by no means too great. It would be hazarding a great blow to the monarchy, to deprive the crown of the means of calling any

independent in his fortune. A pension, after a certain number of years' service, would be by no means such an induce

that the labours of the offices, particularly that of chief justice of the King's Bench, were extremely ill paid, if it were not that the disposal of those offices, in addition to their other emoluments, made something of a reasonable compensation to them. If the disposal of those offices were taken away from the chief judges, a very considerable addition to their salaries ought to be made. As to the principle of the Bill, his opinion was still that it was perfectly wrong and mistaken. It went to say, that the crown should not have the power of securing for its service men whom it might judge to be the most capable, if those men happened not to be in a situation to resign all other professions or pursuits in order to enter into the public service. It was only by such places as these, that the crown had now the power of prevailing on men to accept of offices who were not completely independent in their fortunes, and who were obliged to look to their own exertions for the main-man to its service who was not completely tenance and provision of their families. It might be supposed that those observations proceeded from a personal bias; but he should not pretend to say, that his pub-ment as every man of honour and proper lic services were of such importance to the country, as to make such a measure necessary. He should, however, suppose a case of the crown being at any future time surrounded by aristocratic combinations, and that to preserve its proper place in the constitution, it should deem it necessary to call to its service some gentleman from the other side of the House. It would be very possible, that the gentleman whom it might so select, and who might be more worthy of such selection, would be found in such a situation as not to be able, in duty to himself or his family, to accept of office unless the crown had something of this sort to bestow, in addi-nary, and contrary to parliamentary usage, tion to the salary of the office. In such a case as he had supposed, it would be evident that the existence of such offices would contribute materially to the independence of the crown, and to enabling it to keep its proper rank in the constitution. He knew that there were some who conceived the influence of the crown exorbitant. (Hear, hear!) He supposed that those who cheered the expression so clamorously,, were of that opinion; but he should appeal to the opinion of the House in general, whether this influence was too great. He conceived that the progress of information, and the accumulation of wealth, had added, of late years,

feeling would prefer the means of providing for his family, to any provision which which was to be made merely for his own life. No man who could secure a provision for his family by his exertions in private life, would consent to accept of office, unless he had also a prospect held out to him of securing a provision for his family, which one of those sinecure offices might give him.

Mr. Bankes certainly was apprised a long time ago of the hostility of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the principle of this Bill. He thought, however, that it was somewhat extraordi

to let the Bill be read a second time, and pass through the Committee, without any observations; and then to come forward in the present stage, and condemn not only the principle of the Bill, but those details which might have been altered in the Committee. He had not expected to have been hampered with this double difficulty: but, however, he should answer as well as he could the objections which he had now heard. The gentlemen from the North had opened a pretty sharp battery upon him; but they really appeared to him not to be able to perceive the distinction between office and salary, or to think it possible that the salary might be saved,

and the office not abolished. The right up to the ministers of the crown. With hon. gentleman, however, clearly compre- regard to its immediate influence in that hended the distinction; but when he House, there had been times when such spoke of those offices and their responsi- influence had been more openly excited; bility, he should have recollected that but could there be a doubt that much of it they were rather quasi offices with quasi remained, and continued to be an object responsibility, and neither the duties of of just suspicion to the people? The such offices, nor the responsibility attach- present measure, if passed, would have the ed to them, appeared to him at all too beneficial effect of purifying the future great to be confined to such men as would parliaments of the country. He was usually be appointed deputies. He knew really surprised to hear the offices which that his Bill was necessarily defective in this Bill proposed to abolish, represented many parts; and he could have wished to as in some measure the outworks and safehave had the benefit of the right hon. guards which were necessary to the progentleman's observations on the Com- tection of the crown. On the contrary, mittee. As to the Scotch places, which it he rather regarded them as a mill-stone was recommended to incorporate with appended to the monarchy, in danger of other places, he was by no means con- weighing it to the ground; because these vinced of the justice of the observations sinecures were become low, degraded, made by the Lord Advocate. He believ- and odious in the estimation of the people. ed that those places which had been stated (Hear, hear!) The recent vote of the as checks on each other, had never, with- House, by which the sinecure held by col. in the memory of the oldest man, been M'Mahon was abolished, had raised their known to act in any way as checks. The character in the eyes of the country. honourable and learned gentleman had There never was a moment when it was represented this measure as likely to over- more important to preserve and increase turn all vested and landed rights in Scot- that estimation. Let them now shew that land; but he believed that it would appear the act to which he had alluded was not to the House, that his description was the mere effervescence of the moment, but considerably overcharged. The honour- that they were prepared to proceed upon able member proceeded to declare, that principle to the abolition of sinecures he knew of no better mode of paying equally useless, and equally odious. He high and efficient offices in the state than was not one of those who would delude by salaries proportioned to their import- the people with the idea, that the abolitions ance. He had conceived, that as the which he recommended would materially House had formerly agreed to certain re- diminish the public burthens; but it solutions proposed by him, which laid would not fail to afford them much satisfacdown the principles that certain sinecure tion, when they saw parliament determinoffices should be either abolished or regu-ed, that that only should be expended lated, they were bound to support the pre- which was necessary for the public service. sent Bill, which was in fact formed upon He had not expected a debate on the sethese resolutions. His right honourable cond reading of the Report, much less a friend had intimated an opinion, that the browbeating one. His Majesty's minispower of the crown had not increased of ters might think, from the number of late years: but was it possible to look at members in the House, they would have the immense expenditure of the country, an advantage over him on a division, as -at our great military and naval esta- many of the hon. members were not preblishments, at the vast patronage thus sent when the question was regularly deplaced in the hands of the crown-at the bated; but he was not afraid to meet increase of our revenue, and of the number them on a division, for he knew the soundof people employed in its collection ;- ness of his cause. The right hon. gentlewas it possible, he would ask, to look at man, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had all these things, without being convinced, told them, that the power of the crown that dependence on the crown was extend- had not increased; at the same time, ed to all parts of the country, in a de- staring him in the face, since the New Era gree quite unexampled in former times? had commenced a new office had been (Hear!) It was no light consideration, made at a large salary. He had not a also, that some of the greatest com- doubt if the Bill passed into a law, but it mercial and corporate bodies in the would do away with many of the existing country were in the habit of looking corruptions of parliament. Were Mr. Pitt

a

and Mr. Burke living, he was persuaded, they would give their support to the Bill; which did not go to deprive the crown of the power of rewarding merit, but to prevent the public money from being lavished on useless sinecures. He was always of opinion that the crown should hold its supremacy, but he thought the Bill before them was a safeguard to it, particularly when the public were in disgust with sinecures. It was the duty of the House to preserve the public interest. The House had, by a former vote, given the country an earnest of their independence, and would they then, by their vote that night, do away with the pledge?

Mr. Courtenay said, in explanation, that in attributing to the hon. gentleman the adoption of a test of merit, he spoke from a note made at the time. He also said, that he had not objected to the abolition of sinecures, except in certain instances, but that his objections were to the principle upon which the substitution was to be established; and in that respect particularly, he charged upon the hon. mover a departure from the principles of Mr. Pitt.

Mr. Canning rose and said, that at that late hour, and in the exhausted state of the House, he should only detain them a few minutes; but he was anxious shortly to explain the grounds on which he should vote for the original question. His right hon. friend (Mr. Perceval), had commenced his speech with arguing against the general principles of the Bill; but he could not resist the temptation of introducing some of its minor and petty details, for the purpose of mixing them with its principles, and obtaining the rejection of both together. This was a species of tactics which was not perhaps very unusual; but it would have been fairer to have made a stand against the principle of this Bill on the second reading; and on the other hand his hon. friend might be perfectly right in his objections to some of the minor details of the measure, while he made no way at all against its principles. The right hon. member (Mr. Canning) then commented on some of the arguments of the learned lord who spoke early in the debate, and ridiculed the importance which he attached to the continuance of certain sinecure offices in Scotland. He next alluded to the recommendation of measures of economy from the throne, at the commencement of the present parliament. The nature of the en

quiries into the means of diminishing expenditure, then recommended by the crown, could not be mistaken, as the resumption of measures of the same sort as had been carried on in the preceding parliament was particularly specified in the speech from the throne. This, in reality, was a virtual recommendation on the part of the crown of some measure similar to the present, and totally removed the necessity which his right hon. friend supposed to exist, of having a separate recommendation of abolition for each of the 200 offices specified in the Bill. His right hon. friend had contended, that these offices were means in the hands of the crown for remunerating high services, and alluring to its employment the talents of unpatrimonied men. He admitted there was a possibility of a set of persons of rank, birth, and high fortune uniting for the purpose of drawing a circle round the throne, and monopolising all the offices of state. It was equally proper that the crown should have the means of averting such contingencies; but was the system of sinecures better calculated to attain that object than the one now proposed, which was to operate by the power of granting pensions? In this point of view the two systems seemed equal; but in another respect, the one was more eligible than the other, inasmuch as public opinion was hostile to sinecures; they were become odious to the people, while this Bill provided that pensions should be openly given and received as the reward of past services. It was public opinion which caused the difference; and he argued not on the ground of a diminution of the influence of the crown being necessary, but merely on that of a commutation of its form. He agreed with his right hon. friend in thinking, that the influence of the crown had not increased; or, at least, that it was counterbalanced by the increased wealth of the people, and particularly by that increased spirit of intelligence which was so generally diffused, and which necessarily operated as a check on the crown. concluded by remarking, that though there were some provisions in the Bill from which he dissented, yet he should support it, because he approved of the principle on which it went.

He

Lord Castlereagh opposed the Bill, as tending to deprive the crown of the power of immediately securing to an individual of talent that which, consistently with his duty to his family, he might require to

be secured to him before he would dedicate his time to the public service. It went to deprive the crown of this power, and only left it the means of intimating to such a person, that if in the midst of conflicts with poverty, he could contrive to continue to serve the crown for five years; at the end of that time, he might be rewarded with a pension. He could not think the measure had been correctly described, when it had been represented as merely leading to a commutation of the power of the crown. He thought it unequivocally calculated to effect a great reduction in its power, and to make a retrenchment of its prerogative, inconsistent with the principles of the English monarchy.

The House divided

For the motion.........
Against it....

.134 ....123 Majority in favour of the Bill...-1] The Bill was then recommitted.

Mr. Wynn proposed to add the office of first commissioner for India affairs to the second class, which was objected to by Mr. Bankes and others, but was carried. He then proposed to include the office of judge advocate general.

Mr. Tierney supported the proposition, contending, that such officers were not usually taken from high practice in the law; and that there was no necessity to tempt persons to take them.

The Attorney General said, that Mr. Bond was eminent in the circuit, and that the present judge advocate had shewn great professional talent, though he had not been in great practice.

Mr. Bankes hoped the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Wynn) would not spoil the Bill by such extensions. This office ought to be viewed as a judicial one, and not as political. It would be, therefore, more for its dignity and utility if it were exparliamentary.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer saw no difference in the matter, whether the holder were in or out of parliament, as it respected the merit of his services.

Mr. Whitbread thought his hon. and learned friend's amendment would overlay the present Bill: the office of first

Mr. Manning concurred in the same sentiment.

Mr. Wynn did not wish to press his amendment.

Mr. Ryder supported it; and the question was put and carried.

Mr. Wynn proposed to include the paymaster general, but after some conversation relinquished that amendment. Mr. Long proposed the clerkship of the ordnance for the 4th class.

Mr. Bankes had no objection.

Mr. Tierney said, he should move on the third reading, that it should be distinguished whether the service was in peace or war, on the same principle as the secretaryship of the Admiralty.

The amendment was carried.

Mr. Courtenay said that, in the committee he had asked the hon. mover whether he had any objection to allowing that service in an office inferior to the lowest enumerated in the Bill, should in the case of a person promoted from such inferior office to one in either of the four classes, be reckoned in the number of years required; upon the same principle as that which provided, that service in an office in the fourth class, namely, under secretary of state, should count towards entitling the party to the pension, in any higher class to which he might be promoted. The hon. mover had given an answer, which was understood not only by Mr. C. but by many other persons present, as being in the affirmative, but as no such provision was to be found in the Bill, he should propose it in a future stage.

Colonel Barry objected to what affected the Irish pension list, as violating the agreement with the crown for the present King's life, and moved to omit that passage in the Bill.

Mr. Canning said, that it did not affect the Civil List, but only its distribution.

Colonel Barry's amendment was negatived.

The House having resumed, the Report was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Monday.

commissioner for India affairs for instance, List of the Majority, who voted in favour of

depended merely on the existence of the East India Company.

Mr. Canning was of opinion, that it would be better that the judge advocate should be an exparliamentary officer.

the Sinecure Offices Bill.

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