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situation under the King for many years, the Regent should vacate seats in the and the same salary that was given to that House, as well as appointments under the gentleman had been continued to colonel King, to which the statute now applied. M Mabon. Undoubtedly it was to be The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, deemed a new office; and if the question that be thought the act, as it was now were put to him with a view to ascertain worded, would include both : if not, howwhether it were his opinion that the no- ever, the defect could be remedied. He mination was such as to vacate colonel was not at all prepared to say that appointM.Mahon's seat in that House, he should ments to offices under the Regent, as duke answer that it was included in the act of of Cornwall, were, or whether they ought parliament.

to be embraced by it. Mr. Ward remarked, that his object was Mr. Wynn remarked, that his question to obtain information as to the duties of referred to appointments of lords of the the office.

bedchamber, &c. under the Prince ReThe Chancellor of the Exchequer said, gent. In such cases the act might perhaps that the duties were various and import- be evaded. ant, although the offices would carry with them vo official sanction, as the Secretary

Prince Regent's MESSAGE RESPECTING of State for the Home Department would The PRINCESSES.) The Chancellor of the still continue to be the fit organ for re- Exchequer moved the order of the day, ceiving and communicating the pleasure for the House going into a Committee of of the Prince Regent.

Supply, to take into consideration the Mr. Whitbread wished to know whether, Message of the Prince Regent. On the before the nomination of colonel Taylor motion, that the House do now resolve itself as private secretary to the King, any into the said Committee, such place had existed ? Under the in- Mr. Creevey objected to the Speaker's firmity of sight of his Majesty, no one leaving the chair. He did not wish that could doubt of the necessity of such a con- the discussion should take place now, bub fidential servant, but as little hesitation that it should be deferred to some future could be felt in conceding that no such of day. No difference of opinion could exist ficer would be required by the Regent. as to the necessity of a suitable provision He was anxious likewise to learn (the being made for the Princesses. But his place having been made a State Office by fisst general ground of objection to the The Gazette,) whether the nomination of proposition now made, an objection which col. M.Mabon was to be paid out of the he bad stated on a former occasion, was, same fund as that from which col. Taylor that the charge would fall upon the conderived his salary?

solidated fund, to which the public crediThe Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, tor looked for his security, and which, in that the hon. member being in possession the last year, had fallen far short of its of all the facts, he could, if he thought fit, amount in the year preceding. It apbring the matter formally under the con- peared from the papers before the House, sideration of the House. He admitted, and now in his hand, that the revenue of that before the infirmity of the King no the consolidated fund, up to the 5th of private secretary had been appointed ; January last, had decreased in comparison but from the great accumulation of public of the year ending the 5th of January, business, from various causes, those who 1811, to the amount of 3,500,000l. It expected that the person occupying the could be shewn that the consolidated fund throne could fulfil all his functions with had decreased 1,000,0001. in the taxes out assistance, would look for impossibi- which supplied it, wbile an additional lities.

charge of 1,500,0001. had been laid upon Mr. Ward inquired whether the Chan- it. And although there was at this mo. cellor of the Excbequer would have any ment a surplus of this fund, might not the objection to mention who advised the ap- time come wben there should be none ? pointment?

and to this period they were bound, in The Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have their calculations, to look. They ought, not the least difficulty in stating, that I ad- therefore, to do now what they had done in vised it.

1786 and 1793, in the government of lord Mr. Wynn suggested the propriety of Grenville and Jord Harrowby, appoint a passing a special enactment, by which it committee to enquire into the state of the should be provided that appointments under taxes, their produce and application, bea fore they laid a new charge on the consoli- Mr. Rose, with respect to what had fallen dated fund. He wished io know how mi- from the hon. gentleman respecting the nisters had it in view to remedy this great securities of stockholders, had to observe, falling off. They could only do it in one that by an act of the 47th of the King, it of three ways-by interfering with the was provided, that if in any quarter the consecurities of the stockholder-by laying solidated fund should be found unequal to on new taxes to make up the deficiency- the charges on it, the first supplies of the or by touching the sinking fund. Into all year were to be applied in aid of it, and these matters the House ought to enquire this he conceived was sufficient to make ibe before they proceeded. The stock market Stockholders easy about their securities. was agitated by strong feelings of alarm The Chuncellor of the Exchequer had to and distrust, lest the stock holders should offer a very few words on what had fallen not in time receive their interest; and in- from the hon. gentleman opposite, who stead of adding yearly, and even monthly, had again stated what was likely to pro. to the charges upon the consolidated fund, duce a very improper effect upon the pub, which would soon be unable to bear them, lic mind, if permitted to go abroad unconthe right hon. the Chancellor of the Ex- tradicted. The hon. gentleman had stated, chequer would do much better if he in- that a diminution in the consolidated fund creased its amount by the abolition of the had taken place equal to 3,500,0001. and places of two useless Tellers of the Exche- that thus the source to which the public quer, and the office of Registrar of the creditor looked for security, was decreased Court of Admiralty, now held by lord | in a degree to alarm him for his safety. But Arden. Why this provision for their so far from this being the case, the amount Royal Highnesses had not been suggested of the difference between the years ending at the time when the late arrangements January, 1811, and January, 1812, was for the Household were under considera. only 1,269,0001. and the hon. gentleman tion, he did not know, nor why the Re- came to his erroneous conclusions by comgent, out of the 130,0001, which had been paring the surplusses, and taking the addigiven to him, and for which there was no tional difference of the war taxes into his application, could not spare the sum of calculation, which was not a just mode of 36,0001. for his royal sisters, especially trying the question. Neither was it a fair since the 58,000l. paid by the King out of thing to draw a comparison between the the Civil List, to the Queen, was not re- best year the country ever knew, in point quired from the Regent. With the sub- of revenue, and the last year, when the ject of the separation of the Prince and country was labouring under very consiPrincess of Wales, he (Mr. Creevey) on derable pressure ; and the new taxes, inthis occasion, had nothing to do, although tended to make up the deficiency, had not it did strike him as a little extraordinary, had an opportunity of producing their efthat no additional sum had been given to fect, so as to come within the results of the the future queen of Great Britain, at the year laid before the House. He hoped time her august spouse was invested with the House would, therefore, see no ground, the regal dignity. There was now no from the statement of the hon. gentleman, court to create expence; for the Princess to believe, that they needed to be under of Wales, who was the representative of any apprehension, with respect to the sethe Queen, from her situation, being sepa- curity of the public creditors, in agreeing rated from her husband, was not in a con- to the proposition for a provision to the dition to employ the wonted splendour and Princesses, which would this night be shew of royalty. Her Royal Highness made to them. If, as the hon. gentleman had only 17,0001. a year, when the had seemed to wish, this subject had been Queen's allowance was 58,0001, Here considered at the time the Prince's housewas at once a great saving, and there were hold arrangements were made, the sum for also others, which rendered it very easy which he should move in the committee to provide for the Princesses, without lay must in justice have been added to what ing an additional charge of 36,0001. a year they had voted at that time ; but it bad on the people. He concluded by moving, been thought better to bring this subject as an amendment, to insert in the motion forward by itself, and on that ground it the words “ this day month," instead of was postponed. The hon. gentleman had the word “ now,” for the purpose, in the seemed to think, the sum they were to be mean time, of examining into the amount called upon for in the committee might of, and charges upon, the consolidated fund. have been easily spared out of the Civil List. This might appear so to him, as he of Lancaster, for the purpose of liquicompared the 17,0001. given annually to dating those debts which had before been the Princess of Wales, with the 58,0001. under the consideration of that House, per ann. which had been given to the Queen He strongly objected to postponing the by the King. The fact however was, that committee. the same deductions were made from the Mr. Whitbread concurred with his hon. Civil List in the hands of the Prince, as had friend in the propriety of postponing the been made from it when it was in the committee for at least a month, not behands of the King, as her Majesty received cause the deficiency of the consolidated her 58,000l. per ann. as formerly from the fund was so large as to shake the security Civil List. The hon. gentleman was also of the public creditor, but because the mistaken in the sum which the Princess statements of gentlemen on both sides of received, as he understood it to be 17,0001. the House, holding the very same papers including 5,000!. which she received as in their hands, were so contradictory as to pin money, whereas she received 17,0001. prove, that a similar investigation to that exclusive of pin money. It had been auge which had taken place under lords Grenmented from 12,0001. to 17,0001. in conse- ville and Harrowby, should be instantly quence of its being thought necessary by commenced. for one had understood the King to make a more ample provision that the Princesses were to live with the for her than she had formerly enjoyed. Queen, and on this account it was, he conIn 1809, a representation was made to the ceived, that the addition of 10,0001. had duke of Portland, who then beld the situa- been made to her Majesty's income. He tion which he (the Chancellor of the Ex. had told the right hon. gentleman, that chequer) vow had the honour to occupy, even after that he supposed some provithat debts were due to various persons sion would be proposed for the Princesses ; from the Princess of Wales, for which she but he thought that if such a provisionbad no means of providing. An investi- were to be made for them, there was no gation accordingly took place, and it was necessity for adding 10,000l. to the infound that the debts amounted to 41,0001. come of the Queen. Unless that 10,0001, Her income was at that time 12,0001. per were given for the maintenance of the annum, exclusive of 5,0001. pin money. Princesses, it was difficult to imagine why The Prince, on that occasion, averse to any it was granted, and the act itself

afforded application being made to the public, took no information. It turned out however her debts upon himself, and at the same now, that the salary of the Princess of time conceiving that they might have been Wales was not sufficient, but why an adcontracted in consequence of the insuffi- dition had not beeu made to it at the time, ciency of her income to meet her ex. when for no reason ou earth, 10,000l. per pences, he augmented it to 17,0001. It annum was voted to the Queen, and such was found on a farther investigation of the immense, and almost unlimited grants were business, that her Royal Highness's debts agreed to for the Prince, it was not easy to amounted to 8,0001. more, and this sum, in determine. His Royal Highness, however, addition to the 41,0001. before mentioned, took upon himself the discharge of the debts the Prince also took upon himself. On a of his consort, but al a time when the Prince still more minute investigation of the sub- himself was deeply involved, from which ject, it was found that there was yet a small embarrassments he was extricated out of fraction more of 2,000l. and this last sum the public purse in the most objectionable it had been thought reasonable that her way that could be devised. It appeared Royal Highness herself should pay out of to him to be one of the most complete ber increased income. The Prince thus, juggles that was ever heard of, that a per. to prevent the charge being thrown on the son should undertake to pay the debts of public, took 49,0001. on himself of the another to save the people that expence, debts of the Princess, although his royal while he came to get his own debis paid father would doubtless willingly have con- by that same people! The Prince undersented to disburse a sufficient sum out of took to pay the debts of the Princess of the Droits of Admiralty. The hon. gentle. Wales, which he had no means of disa man thought there was now a large discharging, at a time when he was calling posable fund in the hands of the Prince. upon the public to enable him to pay his This was not the case, as so large a part of own. The House was told that a commishis income as 70,0001. had been given to sion had been appointed to apply 70,0001. a commission under the seal of the Duchy a year to discharge the debts of the Regent,

It was a commission created by, and might) year; if they fell to two, 20,000l. a year
be absolved by the Prince, and there were was to be divisible between them; and if
no persons responsible-there were no ad- to one, the survivor to have 12,0001. 2
visers answerable for the due application year. This was the provision which par-
of the enormous som of 130,000l. which liament had enabled his Majesty to make
had been given as a privy purse without for the Princesses in the event of his de-
controul. The Prince Regent enjoyed a mise ; but the melancholy circumstances
privy purse of 130,0001. which was much which had taken place in the royal family,
more than that of the King, which, at rendered it necessary that the House
its utmost, amounted to only 60,0001. should take into its consideration the con-
Were they not then to view, with equal | dition of those Princesses in the same way
jealousy, the application of this sum in the as if the actual demise of his Majesty had
possession of the Prince, exercising the taken place. The House were aware in
powers of royalty, as they were in the what situation their Royal Highnesses now
habit of viewing the uses made of a smaller stood, as forming part of the domestic
sum by the King? Were they so little establishment at Windsor; and he did not
read in history as not to have heard of know, therefore, that any provision, imme-
parliamentary influence and were they diately to take place, might be necessary ;
not bound to guard against any chance of but he thought it of importance that they
money granted to support the sovereign should be placed in a condition which
dignity, being applied to purposes uncon. would enable them to form their separate
stiiutional and dangerous He would like establishments if they wished it. It was
to hear from the right hon. gentleman if his intention to propose, that to each of the
he was aware of the amount of the debts four Princesses they should grant the sum
of the Prince Regent ? if he knew the of 9,0001. per annum, exclusive of the
mode in which the money set apart was grant of 4,000l. each from the Civil List,
applied to their liquidation ? or if he was which being during pleasure was not to be
answerable for the conduct of the commis. relied on as a certainty. He should there-
sioner to whom this office was intrusted ? | fore move for the sum of 36,0001. At the
The creditors of his Royal Higbness, by death of one of them he would propose,
the mode now adopted, had no security at that the survivors should receive 10,0001.
all for the settlement of their claims.-In per annum each; at the death of a se.
his opinion the amount of these claims cond, the two remaining to continue to re-
ought to be ascertained, the whole paid, ceive 10,000l. each ; and on the death of
and the grant of 70,0001. appropriated for a third, the sole survivor to receive 12,0001.
that purpose, revoked.- This was the only per ann. This arrangement, the difference
way of doing justice to all parties, and in the lines considered, he did not think
guarding the creditors against any loss would appear to the House as proposing
through the demise of the crown. On an unreasonable advance on the sum ori-
these considerations he had again to ex- ginally named as a provision for the Prin-
his concurrence in the amendment

He had no reason to suppose the that had been moved.

Princesses would wish to remove from the On this the motion was put and nega establishment on which they were at pretived without a division. The original sent, but if they did not choose to remain question was then put and carried, and the there the whole year round, he thought it House resolved itself into a committee ac- was unreasonable at the period of life to cordingly.

which they had attained, that they should The Chancellor of the Erchequer observed not be allowed the means of forming an that the House must be aware in what si- establishment of their own, or of changing tuation their royal highnesses the Prin- their residence at any period of the year cesses stood, with regard to the former for their health, convenience, or pleasure. parliamentary grant. An act had been He concluded by moving, “ That it is the passed in the 18th and another in the 39th opinion of this committee that an annuity of his present Majesty, empowering him of 36,0001. be granted to the King, to ento make a grant (contingently in the event able bim to make a provision for the of his Majesty's demise) of 30,0001. as an Princesses Augusta, Sophia, Elizabeth and annuity to the four Princesses living at the Mary, instead of the annuity of 30,0001. time the acts were passed. In the event formerly granted, to be payable out of the of these annuitants falling to three, they consolidated fund of Great Britain, and that were each of them to have 10,0001. ait do supersede the former grants made in


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the 18tb and 39th of his present Majesty.”, blished in 1804, at 960,000l. a year : from

Mr. Tierney presumed that the right this had been dedacted, in the way of exhon. gentleman, in proposing to give pence, 133,000l. which was the same as 9,000l. a year to the Princesses, assumed so much being given to it, for that as a fact that his Majesty was defunct with sum was still raised upon the public, and regard to them. His proposition, therefore still paid to the Civil List. By an act of was, that to the 7,5001. a year, to which the present session, 124,0001. more were they were entitled under the former act, added, then 218,000l. out of the consoli. 1,5001. more should be added ; and in ad.dated fund, as an allowance to the royal dition to this annuity, which they were family; and if to this were joined the renow called on to vote, their Royal High venues of the Duchy of Lancaster amountnesses received 4,0001. a year each from ing to 10,000l. ; and of Cornwall say to the Civil List, during the pleasure of the 15,000l. ; the vote of this session to the Prince Regent, making their whole annual Regent of 70,000l. ; another sum of income 13,000l. This sum, great as it 70,0001. granted to pay off incumbrances ; was, he by no means considered as too the 4 and { per cent. duties, being 30,0001. great for the separate establishment of and the sum now proposed by the right each; but it appeared by the act of 1799, hon. gent. of 36,0001. the gross amount of that it was in the contemplation of parlia. the Civil List per annum, for the support of ment tbat the Princesses would live to the royal family, would be at this moment gether, and why any gentleman should 1,668,000l.; an enormous tax upon the suppose, or take it for granted, that they liberality of the country. He hoped it would desire separate establishments, af. would not be imputed to him that he fectionately forming one family as they wished to diminish the just and proper did at present, he could not conceive. In splendour of the crown; but he believed that point of view, then, presuming that that there were great abuses in the extheir Royal Highnesses would not form se. penditure of the Civil List, and he thought parate establishments, he thought the sum that the 36,0001. which they were now too great. But there was another consi. called upon to vote, might be saved from deration which struck him as very imporla that Civil List by a due and fundamental ant. Would there be any saving to the enquiry into its several branches of ex. Civil List by this grant? At present there penditure. That enquiry, however, never was a charge in the lord steward's depart. could be efficiently made, because the ment for table, attendants, dresses, &c. right hon. gentleman, though he would for the Princesses: was that to be conti- grant a committee, had told them," you nued? If it was, then a sum would be may examine accounts, but you shall not given to their Royal Highnesses which examine persons ;” and he must know they did not want. His greatest objection that it was impossible to come at the botto the present vote, however, was what he tom of the Civil List expenditure without had stated on a former occasion, and examining persons. He put it to the hon. which now no longer appeared a chimeri- chairman of that committee to say whecal one. He alluded to the detached ther any progress bad been made the and piecemeal way in which the se. answer must be “ None," and he wished veral additions to the Civil List had been he had brought some of the papers in his made : first 10,0001. then 20,0001. and pocket to shew the nature of the informa. so on, without the House ever knowing iion they received. In the case of the precisely what it was about. The general foreign ministers, for instance, all they increase upon the Civil List expenditure could learn respecting the difference bebad been very great. Before they came tween the estimate and the actual expence to a determination, they ought; there was, that the one was wrong and the fore, to examine thoroughly into the other the fact. Looking at the question, Civil List, and form a comprehensive esti- therefore, in this point of view, he thought mate of their revenue, and of the expences the House would confer a very hasty and of that List, and of the royal family. iil-advised grant, if they voted the sum Gentlemen were not, perhaps, aware of without previous enquiry into those subthe extent to which these matters now jects. There was yet another observa. went. He would read from a paper, he Lion with respect to the Civil List which had in his hand, a statement of the Civil be wished to make, and that was with reList revenue and the allowances to the spect to the provision which it contained royal family. The Civil List was esta for her royal highness the Princess of (VOL. XXII.)


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