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any rate to be called to their bar, and told how the law stood in that respect.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said it was a question of fact, and was of opinion that no prima facie case was made against Mr. Dan, and that, as it did not appear he had any disposition to treat the privileges of the House with contempt, it was not necessary that he should be ordered to attend.

sary to have an explanation from his own mouth, as to whether he disputed the authority of the House, or only the authenticity of the instrument, he should have no objection to his being called.

Mr. Wynn said, the act was a manifest breach of privilege, and those who would state the case most favourably for Mr. Dan, must own that there was at least great doubt in his expressions. If the motion before the House was, that he should be taken into custody, what had been stated by the gentlemen opposite would have great weight, but they did not go the length of disproving the propriety of an

Mr. Tierney thought if nothing farther were done, and it appeared on their Journals that no steps were taken in consequence of such a breach of privilege, attornies might hereafter refer to this case, and tell those offending in a similar man-order for his attendance. ner, that it was of no consequence, and no notice would be taken of it by the House. Mr. Owen, when the responsibility of the man who discharged an arrest was considered, thought a fair excuse appeared for Mr. Dan. It seemed there was no christian name mentioned in the order, and therefore it might well be suspected that it was intended for another Mr. Campbell, and that the person arrested attempted improperly to take advantage of it. He thought enough had been done to assert the privileges of the House, and hoped they would give the parties concerned no farther trouble.

The motion was then agreed to, and Mr. Dan ordered to attend to-morrow. Mr. Hindson was also ordered to attend again.

Mr. Bastard understood, that Mr. Dan had said "Don't mind the order of the House, but keep your prisoner." He thought he could not say this in ignorance, and that consequently a farther enquiry was necessary. [The short-hand writer's notes of the evidence were here read.]

Mr. Ponsonby agreed that this was a question of fact, but thought the attendance of Mr. Dan necessary, as he had doubted whether or not an order of the House could legally protect a person from an arrest. If he should appear to have doubted not the effect of an order of the House, but whether the order produced were genuine, or if he had doubted whether Mr. Campbell was the person entitled to its protection; he thought there would be but one opinion in the House, that he should be discharged. Since, however, Mr. Dan had been stated to have doubts on the subject, it was proper that he should be ordered to attend to state on what those doubts were founded.

The Solicitor-General thought it appeared that Mr. Dan, considering the circumstances altogether, wished to have the opinion of counsel, before he discharged the person but if it was thought neces(VOL. XXII.)

Mr. Eden said, he had received a letter from Mr. Palmer, a witness attending a Committee of that House, complaining of having been arrested, (a laugh.) He did not know that the case was marked by circumstances so aggravating as those which characterized the former one; however he should move, that John Palmer and Alexander Grace, sheriff's officers, do attend the House to-morrow. The motion was agreed to.

SINECURES BILL.] Mr. Bankes rose and moved, That the three first of the Resolu tions which, upon the 31st of May, 1810, were reported from the Committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred, to consider further of the Report which, upon the 29th of June, 1808, was made from the Committee on Public Expenditure, and which Resolutions were, with an Amend ment to the second and third, agreed to by the House, might be read; and the same were read as follow:

"Resolved, That the utmost attention to economy, in all the branches of public expenditure, which is consistent with the interests of the public service, is at all times a great and important duty.

"That for this purpose, in addition to the useful and effective measures already taken by parliament for the abolition and regulation of various sinecure offices, and offices executed by deputy, it is expedient, after providing other and sufficient means for enabling his Majesty duly to recompence the faithful discharge of high and effective civil offices, to abolish all offices which have revenue without employment, and to regulate all offices which have re(M)

venue extremely disproportionate to em-vanced, and they were conferred alike on ployment, excepting only such as are connected with the personal service of his Majesty, or of his royal family, regard being had to the existing interests in any offices so to be abolished or regulated.

"That it is expedient to reduce all of fices, of which the effective duties are entirely or principally discharged by deputy, to the salary and emoluments actually received for executing the business of such offices, regard being had to any increase which may appear necessary on account of additional responsibility, and sufficient security being taken for due performance of the service in all cases of trust connected with public money, regard being also had to the existing interests in such office."

The

the worthy and unworthy. He hoped the House would always shew its liberality, in being never niggardly to services fairly. established:-such money was never ill bestowed; and, in fact, money must be bestowed, unless we chose to leave public situations either to the aristocracy of fortune or to needy speculating adventurers. He should be sorry to see a contest between the aristocracy and the active talent of the country, for in such a strife it required little sagacity to foresee who would be victorious. It was to guard against any such fatal alternative, that he wished meritorious service of a certain duration to be rewarded; not, however, by the objectionable mode of sinecure, but by what he conceived a far better substitution. His motion contemplated the establishThe hon. gentleman said, that there was ment of a fund, which in the first instance nothing on which the country looked with was to be begun by the profits of the sinemore pleasure than on the salutary princi- cure which would soonest drop. ples of regulation which ought to be ap- fund would be recruited by the very plied to Sinecure offices. Nothing, how-saving of the plan he had to propose. If ever could be so mischievous as those publications which, being dictated either by ignorance or by malice, tended to make the people imagine, that any reduction which could be made in the department of useless offices, was likely to diminish in any sensible degree the burthens created by the war. It would also be a great imposition on the House, if he should pretend, that the motion which he had to propose could be attended with an immediate economical effect. All that could be done was the establishment of the economical principle; and this, in the end, would have a sure, though a slow effect. Sinecures were but small drops to be saved from the ocean of expence; and again, he must caution the publie from looking to their abolition as a cause of diminishing the public burthen. Much, certainly, had been done with a view to economy within the last forty years, much more, indeed, than had been effected in that way from the period of the Revolution. His view was to abolish every office to which no efficient duties were attached; and this would be productive of gradual benefit. The offices obnoxious to him were those which were only burthensome, and not in any sense advantageous. He would fol-mical purposes."-Leave was accordingly low the rules established for superannuation in the collection of the revenue; because as the practice of bestowing sinecures at present stood, there were seldom any claims of meritorious service ad

any inconvenience should arise from no sinecure office becoming in a short time vacant after the adoption of his plan, the House would not, he was confident, be backward in supplying the deficiency. Something ought to be done towards the destruction of the principle on which sinecures were now bestowed; and if the principle were once destroyed, those sinecures which might remain, would only be considered as exceptions to a general rule, and would lose all their deformity. The Irish pension list also deserved to be looked into. This pension list was enormously extravagant, when added to the burthens which Ireland had to bear in contributing her 2-17ths to the expences of the whole country. Its pension list alone was 80,000l. a year. He would not now occupy more of the time of the House, as the time for discussing the principle of his Bill would be more properly on the second reading. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving," That leave be given to bring in a Bill for abolishing and regulating sinecures and offices executed by deputy, and for providing other means for recompensing the faithful discharge of high or effective civil offices, and for other econo

given, and Mr. Bankes, Mr. Wilberforce, and Mr. J. W. Ward were ordered to prepare and bring in the same.

MOTION FOR PAPERS RELATING ΤΟ

deprived of all chance of deriving benefit from a court of law, as well as of his character as an officer. He moved, therefore, That the petition be brought up.

The Speaker observed, that it depended on how far this was an application for money, before the House could determine as to its being received,

Lord Folkestone said, the Petition complained of the usual practice being departed from to his loss and detriment; but it was not altogether pecuniary compen

was his object in bringing forward the Petition. If the usual practice had not been departed from, he could have proved his rank, but being named as a lieutenant he was precluded from doing so.

The Speaker was extremely unwilling to start any objection to the Petition, but it was the duty of the House to beware how they established a precedent by receiving it. If he understood the noble lord, the petitioner craved remuneration, and other things. Now in all cases hereafter to be brought forward, of application for money, would not the petitioners pray for remuneration and other things?

CAPTAIN KING.] Lord Folkestone said, he | held in his hand a Petition on which he found it necessary to make a few observations, before he moved that it should be brought up. The House would recollect that previous to the expedition against Buenos Ayres sailing from the Cape of Good Hope, sir Home Popham, who had the command of the naval department, had by a mistake in his own judgment, illegally, as it had since been determined, hoisted a broad pendant and constituted himself a commodore. In consequence of this self-sation, but restoration of character, which promotion, he had appointed the Petitioner, captain King, a most deserving and capable officer, who was then a lieutenant in the navy, captain of the Diadem, the commodore's ship and in this capacity of captain, and with all the great responsibility attached to the situation, the petitioner conducted safely the Diadem, and the fleet under her command, from the Cape to Buenos Ayres. When the expedition arrived there, the petitioner at the instance of the commander-in-chief, took the command of a body of marines, and acted on shore as a lieutenant colonel; in the execution of which service, as well as that of the captain of the Diadem, he received the thanks of his superior officers. He had since been fixed in his command as captain of the Diadem, and acknowledged at the Treasury as a lieutenant-colonel: but when the prize-money came to be distributed, the petitioner was named in the warrant only as lieutenant King, and only entitled to a share of prizemoney as applicable to that rank in the navy. This was a very serious injury to captain King, in point of pecuniary interest; but besides that, he felt it as a kinding the command? If he had objected to of slur on his character, which he was desirous of having removed. He had, therefore, requested the noble lord to present this Petition, which the noble lord had readily undertaken to do; but having stated this much, he found himself at a loss how to proceed for the best, and would be obliged to the Speaker for his advice. His first idea was to move for a committee to enquire into the circumstances of the case: but on farther consideration, he thought that it would be better to move merely, that the Petition do lie on the table: and then, as the case was well known, and he believed, acknowledged by ministers to be a hard one, if they did not take it up in a certain time, he would make a motion on the subject. This seemed to be absolutely necessary, as captain King had been

Lord Folkestone wished to state, that this was not the language of the Petition, which did not pray for remuneration and other things, but merely his own comment on it. No doubt ultimately the effect might be so. Sir Home Popham had appointed the Petitioner a captain. This appointment was not legal on the part of sir Home; but was the Petitioner to dispute the order of his commanding officer to make him a captain? Was he to examine into sir Home Popham's right before tak

the appointment he would have been guilty of mutiny, and liable to be tried by a court martial. It was true, that if the petitioner had been named as captain of the Diadem, sir Home Popham could only have received prize money as a common sailor, but if any person was to suffer, it was the person who committed the illegal act, and not the person who obeyed. He at the time had been more than six months promoted to the rank of captain. There were many instances of captains of the navy, though in no command on shore, still sharing in the distribution of prize-money.

The Speaker said, that on these grounds, the noble lord having shewn, that what he had said respecting remuneration was only his own comment, he now thought himself at liberty to put the question.

thanks of his country, and had received pay and forage money, as a lieutenant-colonel on shore. He was to all intents and purposes a field-officer on shore; but it seemed, that because sir Home Popham had committed an illegal act, captain King was to be degraded. He was not, as had been said, lieutenant of the Diadem, previous to the appointment in question, but commander of L'Espoir. He was taken out of his ship and sent upon land, where he would have shared as a field-officer. Sir Home Popham, when he had acted in a different manner from what he ought to have done, was to be rewarded at the expence of a man who had done his duty.-Sir Home, upon other, occasions, had received large remunerations from the Droits of Admiralty; but captain King, it seemed, could find no friend among the advisers of the crown, to afford him

Mr. Rose stated this to be a question of very considerable hardship, but the noble lord, he believed, would find it very difficult to put it in such a shape as to allow it to be successfully entertained by the House. He was not at present so well prepared as he could wish to be, not being aware of the subject coming that night before the House, respecting all the particulars of this case. He could say, however, that it was heard in the Exchequer for many days before the lords of the privy council, sitting there in their judicial capacity, who, after much deliberation, came to the ultimate determination, that captain King could not share as a captain. This, he could say was not done with any particular view of benefiting sir Home Popham. All the circumstances of the case had been attended to, and captain King's promotion taken into account. The whole of the prize was now distributed. He was wil-any remuneration from these funds. He ling to admit captain King's merits, and that his case was one of compassion. It had been stated by the noble lord, that the object of this Petition was not only to obtain money, but to remove a slur cast upon him. For his part he had never heard any thing of him but commendation.

Mr. Stephen rose to correct an accidental mis-statement of his right hon. friend. Counsel had certainly not been heard in this case before the privy-council. He then entered into a legal disquisition to prove, that the case was not a law case, but that it came under the prize act, to be decided under the prerogative. The commodore had no power to appoint a captain, and captain King having been thus illegally appointed, did not come within the scope of the proclamation for the distribution of prize-money, under the assumed title to which he had no right. There was no apprehension, that this principle of exclusion would extend to any other officers, as it was grounded merely on the illegality of captain King's appointment.

Mr. Whitbread was glad that the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last, had put down the authority of the right hon. gentleman. Indeed it inust appear to any person impossible that till captain King saw the warrant he could argue against it. If there was to be a sufferer in this case, there was no question but it ought to be the man who had misconducted himself. Captain King had been placed in a situation by sir Home Popham, where he had deserved the

apprehended that captain King had more at stake than the money; he felt that he had been excepted in the most invidious manner; he felt that some slur in the public mind must have been thrown upon him; and if the House expressed their opinion, that the persons who issued the warrant acted in an unlawful manner, they would do more for the satisfaction of captain King, than if the money were to be taken from the pocket of sir Home Popham, and put into his own. It was material to know who had been the advisers of the crown throughout this whole matter.

Mr. Rose stated, that the decision complained of was not one 'come to by his Majesty's ministers, but by the privy council.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer apprehended, that the Petition was for money ;' and as a petition for money, it could not be received by the House without a previous recommendation on the part of his Majesty. The noble lord by whom it had been introduced, had rightly stated, that there was no actual demand for money in the prayer of the Petition, but at the same time he had properly admitted, that pecuniary remuneration was the ultimate aim, and necessary consequence of the Petition. Such, certainly, was the true construction to be put upon the Petition, and no one could possibly entertain a different opinion. Gentlemen on the other side were in error to contend, that there was no other mode of bringing the subject under the consideration of parliament. On a statement of the facts contained in the Petition, they might

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move for papers to elucidate those facts; and if the House thought a sufficient ground was laid for the production of the papers, they would afford sufficient means of judging of the true character of the proceeding alluded to. Whatever might fall from hon. gentlemen in the heat of debate, he was convinced that they did not really themselves believe, that there was any premeditated injustice in the present case. It certainly was a case which had been attended with considerable difficulty. It had long occupied the attention of the privy council. They had compared the conflicting memorials on the subject, but they had certainly not heard counsel. The law officers of the crown had been consulted by government; and the result of all those deliberations and consultatious was a determination to set aside the illegal appointment altogether, without any reference to the character of captain King; and to leave the parties in the same situation as if that appointment had never taken place. As to L'Espoir, the appointment of captain King to that ship proceeded from the same source as his appointment to the Diadem, and consequently was equally illegal. He received his share of the prize-money as a lieutenant, which was his legal rank. He was very ready to own, that captain King having long acted as captain, might feel himself disappointed in his expectations of receiving a larger share of prize-money than that which he actually did receive. He expressed his regret that such a meritorious officer should experience any mortification; but he confessed that the case did not appear to him to be one of such hardship as to demand relief from the Droits of Admiralty. Had his opinion been different on this subject, nothing would have been more easy than to have remunerated captain King from that fund, without doing any injury to sir Hume Popham, to whom he had been so strangely accused of sacrificing captain King's interests. He trusted the House would pause before they authorised the bringing of prize causes before them. They must be aware that such a step would be an encroachment on the prerogative; but they were not aware of the multiplicity of perplexing business in which such a proceeding would necessarily involve them. He begged to caution gentlemen against abandoning themselves to the first feelings of liberality; unless indeed gross abuse and oppression were - clearly established. He trusted that the

House would agree with him in rejecting the Petition, on the ground which he had before stated, namely, that it was a Petition for money, not recommended by the crown; leaving the question open to discussion in any other way, should the case appear to demand it.

Mr. Ponsonby was not prepared to say, whether the present came within the rule of the House; but he thought, generally, that it was a Petition directly asking for a grant of public money, and not one which might ultimately tend to that effect, that required the consent and recommendation of ministers. He conceived that the meaning of the rule was to make ministers responsible for what grants they recommended, and not to restrict the power of parliament. He should take the liberty, however, of suggesting to the noble lord, that if instead of pressing now to a division, when such doubts were entertained, he would withdraw the present motion, and move only for the Memorials of captain King to the Admiralty or Privy Council, he might perhaps, by such a motion, ultimately obtain his object.

Sir C. Pole thought that there was a peculiar hardship in this case. If captain King had been appointed through an error of the commander, still he had done the duty, and he thought he ought to share for the rank in which he acted. If he had been a simple passenger, and appointed to command the marines on shore, he thought that he must have shared.

Mr. Yorke certainly considered that captain King had suffered great hardship but not injustice. He had not been deprived of any legal right, but he was disappointed in a hope which he might very rationally have entertained. As to strict justice, the doors of justice were open to him as well as to any other man, if he had any legal injury to complain of. He considered that this Petition was substantially, if not formaily, an application for a grant of money, and that therefore, it could not be received without the recommendation of ministers.

Lord Cochrane was of opinion, that instead of sharing as a lieutenant, captain King ought to have shared for the rank in which he served. He thought that it was clearly within the power of the privy council to have ordered him such a share, and that if reward was the proper stimulus for exertion, the privy council had committed a gross error in not awarding him such a share. He believed that prize

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