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491] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Petition from the Protestants of Ireland, &c. [492

claims of the Catholics cannot be withheld; they will do wisely to consider this, and before it be too late, to conciliate those, whom they cannot much longer insult and oppress with impunity.

The Petition now presented is offered to the House of Commons as expressive of the favourable opinion of the Protestants of Ireland on the subject of the Catholic claims, as far forth as that sense has been collected or declared. It is the first general appeal to parliament from this body, in approval of those claims, and there is These are facts inno counter Petition. controvertible, which cannot be too often repeated, too strongly, too confidently relied upon.

Sir George Hill.-I did not assert that a challenge had been thrown out to the Protestants. With respect to the observations of the hon. gentleman, I can assure him that I shall always express my sentiments, whether he liked them or not; and further, that I will controvert any observation of the hon. gentleman, when I feel it necessary to do so.

The Petition was then brought up, and on the question being put that it should lie on the table,

Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald said, I am indifferent to which of the strange and contradictory accusations made by the learned doctor he adheres, because they are equally and totally unfounded. He has stated at one moment" that the Petition was carried about in an indecent canvas for signatures;" and in the next, "that it was concealed in a dark room where no one could either read its contents or see the names signed to it." The absurdity of these inconsistent charges is a sufficient refutation of them.

But, for the purpose of affording an express contradiction to what has been so confidently asserted by the learned doctor, I shall state the mode in which the Petition was conducted. The persons with whom the Petition originated, thought it right, confident as they were in the wisdom and justice of their cause, to appeal to the judgment of the Protestants in the For most calm and deliberate manner. that purpose, county and aggregate meetings were discouraged, to avoid any agitation of the public mind; and instead of a canvas for signatures, the Petition was placed in a room in the commercial buildings of Dublin, the central spot for mercantile business, and the most accessible situation in the city.

The substance of the Petition and the
place where it lay, were advertised in all
the newspapers; and as fast as names
were obtained, they were copied in large
characters and hung up in the room for
Indeed when the con-
public inspection.
ductors of the Petition reckoned much on
the influence of the great names signed to
it, and which, on the very first instance,
comprehended many of the highest in
rank, in property, and in character, it
was too preposterous to suppose that they
had, as the learned doctor charged, con-
cealed such signatures.

But, to settle the point, I can inform
the learned doctor that I have in my pos-
session a printed list of the first two thou-
sand signatures which had been circulat-
ed, and that the entire of the names will
be speedily published; and on that pub-
lication, I challenge an investigation in
proof of what I have already stated, that
the Petition has been signed by a majority
of the landed and commercial Protestant
property of Ireland: but on what autho-
rity did the learned doctor and his adher-
ents make their denials to the respectabi-
lity of names which the learned doctor
himself declared he never had seen.
not on his own knowledge, he was merely
the echo of that ribaldry and vulgar abuse
with which the hired press of the Irish
government had impotently sought to
suppress or impede the noble expression
of Protestant liberality.

If

The learned doctor has also, with equal accuracy, denied that the signatures from the North of Ireland are numerous and respectable: he states, "that with the exception of some misguided men in the county of Down, no person of any wealth had signed it." Is the majority of the commercial body of Belfast and Newry That deserving of that description? class of men whose capital and spirit gives life to all the industry of the great manufacturing district, the North of Ireland? Is the commercial body of Dublin, of Waterford, and of Limerick, nothing in the scale of Irish property? Will the learned doctor, in the hearing of those who know Ireland, call such classes" an insignificant portion of the wealth of Ireland." I therefore again assert, without the possibility of being refuted, that the majority of the landed and commercial Protestant property of Ireland is subscribed to that Petition,

Dr. Duigenan.-I maintain that the Petition was smuggled about in a clandestine

The Petition was then read; setting forth,

"That the petitioners do most humbly petition the House in favour of their brethren and fellow subjects, the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion, who apply to parliament to be admitted to the privileges and franchises of the constitution; and that the petitioners, their Protestant brethren, do consider such ap plication to be just, and they do most heartily join the Catholics in this their loyal and reasonable request, and, convinced of its policy as well as its justice, they do most zealously implore the House to comply with the prayer of the said Petition, and to relieve the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities."

manner. I know instances where persons who went to see it were asked first of all, if they meant to sign it? And if they declined saying whether they would or not, they were refused the perusal of it. When the names were printed, they would then know whether they did represent what they were asserted to do; but I am certain that there were many Protestants of the first eminence who reprobate Catholic Emancipation. With regard to the Protestant Petition, I know that various arts were used to obtain signatures: many shop-keepers in Dublin, whose subsistence depended upon their trade, were threatened with a general combination to ruin them, if they did not sign it. I know this could be proved.-I could mention several counties where the Petition was rejected with disdain by the grand juries; and therefore I have grounds for saying that it does not contain the majority of the commercial property of Ireland. I will mention an instance of a dissenting minister in the country, who signed the Petition, who was hunted out of his church by his congregation, and reproached with the opprobrious name of another Judas.

Mr. Craig. I do believe that three fourths of the Protestants of Belfast are favourable to Catholic claims. As I represent a Northern city, (Carrickfergus) I know that several signatures could have been obtained, if the necessary form of a petition had been prepared; and the member for Belfast is a subscriber to the Petition.

Mr. Robert La Touche.-The right hon. doctor alluded to me and my family, as having been particularly concerned in promoting this Petition, and as if the Petition had succeded only by the agency of some of my connections. Certainly, Sir, the head of my family has signed his name first to the Petition, and although formerly in the separate state of Ireland, he was hostile to the Catholic claims, he has changed his opinion with the change of circumstances, and very much to his honour, has candidly avowed that change. He is totally unfounded in supposing that this Petition has been produced by any such agency or management. It has been most respectably signed, by persons of the utmost independence and above any influence.

Colonel Vereker said, that a great proportion of the Protestants of Limerick was not favourable to Catholic Emancipation.

Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF WATERFORD.] Sir John Newport. I have the honour of presenting to the House the Petition of the Roman Catholics of the county and city of Waterford, from a very numerous, opulent, and respectable body of his Majesty's subjects, praying to be restored to the full participation in the privileges of the constitution with their Protestant fellow subjects. Possessed of large landed and monied property, feeling their best interests intimately connected with the welfare of the state, they claim from the justice of this House a candid and dispassionate consideration of their Petition. They pray that at a crisis of unexampled danger to the empire, their efforts in its defence may not be impeded by unjust restrictions; that their tried loyalty may not be sullied by unmerited degradation; that no bar of separation may remain to alienate them from their native country, but that sharing in her dangers, they may share in her honours also.

I have peculiar pleasure in presenting this Petition, as I am enabled here to disprove, both from the magnitude of property, and the nature of its tenure, the unwarrantable assertions which have been hazarded in this House by a right hon. and learned civilian, as to the intentions entertained by the Roman Catholics of Ireland. I know that 200,000l. have been vested by some of the petitioners, within these ten years past, in the purchase of landed property, principally on those very titles which the learned doctor has accused them with a wish to subvert. It

is impossible to furnish a more complete | sure, and until some necessity was shewn, refutation of the learned doctor's assertions than the petitioners have done, supplying by their practice the most unanswerable commentary upon the monstrous theoretical opinions with which he has so often attempted to mislead this House.

Mr. Pole Carew called the right hon. baronet to order, conceiving it to be irregular to allude to former discussions.

Sir J. Newport.-I contend that I have not been out of order, as the right hon. doctor had published his speech, and sent it into general circulation, which made it public property, and of course subject to comment; especially as the Catholics of Ireland generally, and my constituents in particular, most justly complained of the unfounded, calumnious assertions contained in that publication.

Dr. Duigenan.-In any thing I said against the Roman Catholics of Ireland in any former debate, I said against the whole body, and not against those of Waterford, or any other corner of Ireland; therefore I cannot see why the right hon. baronet should have made any allusion to

me.

He reminds me of Harlequin in the pantomime, building up a castle of paste board that he might knock it down with his wand of lath; besides, it would have been more proper if the hon. gentleman reserved the eloquence of which we hear so much every night, when he shall have plenty of opportunities to answer my opinions about the Roman Catholic sect.

The Petition of the Catholics of the county and city of Waterford was then brought up, presented, read, and ordered

to lie on the table. It was the same as the General Petition of the Catholics of Ireland.

GOLD COIN AND BANK NOTE AMENDMENT BILL.] Mr. Wharton having appeared at the bar with the report of this Bill, the question being put for its being brought up,

Mr. Pole Carew expressed his total disapprobation of the principle of the Bill, inasmuch as it would create an inducement to give more for coin than its nominal or legal value, thereby creating a crime which could not be prevented by any legislative act.

Sir Thomas Turton contended, that if this Bill passed into a law, it would com pletely do away the sacred contracts between landlords and tenants. He could see no necessity whatever for such a mea

he could by no means give his vote in its
favour. The House had heard from a no-
ble lord (Castlereagh) that the Bill would
be of considerable importance, and was
in truth much wanted in the north of Ire-
land. He did not, however, feel disposed
to take the noble lord's ipse dixit, and
should therefore wait for better evidence
of the fact, before he could give it impli
cit credence. A committee ought to be
appointed to enquire into the state of Ire-
land, and if they reported that such was
the state of that country as to render such
a Bill necessary, he should have no ob-
jection to give it his sanction, At present
he could only regard it as the worst of
evils, the only effect of which would be
to destroy the compact between man and
man, and create dissentions and disagree.
ments which could not be too strongly
deprecated. He had heard it stated that
Ireland was precisely in the same state,
as far as regarded the powers of this Bill,
as England This he begged leave to
deny. In Ireland a special agreement
was entered into by the tenant to pay his
rent in specie. Would the House then
dissolve these compacts? Would they,
by passing this Bill, completely overthrow
those customs which had so long existed,
without question or inconvenience?
could not help thinking that the facility
already given to paper currency had given
rise to something like depreciation, and
had little doubt that a one pound note and
a shilling would not purchase so much as
a guinea. An hon. gentleman had sug-
gested as a nostrum for this evil, that the
Bank should be suffered to regulate their
own issues; that country banks should be
obliged to pay their notes in specie; and
that government should pay to the Bank
the sum due to them by the country. He
should be glad to know how these mea
sures, if adopted, would have the desired
effect? Or, how the payment of that sum
would draw back to the country that coin
which appeared to have totally evaporat-
ed? He was firmly persuaded that the
connection between the government and
the Bank was extremely ruinous; but
when government attempted to legislate
for them, and to give value to their notes,
the consequences would be fatal. As long
as the war in the peninsula continued, the
country could expect to have no other coin
than the pocket pieces which were at pre-
sent in circulation. He did hear of a flag of
truce having arrived, and of some over-

He

tures having been made from France. | thereto, the prosecutions had amounted to These, he hoped, would meet with that 471. This statement, however, he did not sort of attention the state of the country esteem a just criterion of the real state of required. In conclusion, he declared, that facts; for, although the amount of Bank if the necessity of the measure was clear- notes said to have been discovered to be ly established, he would give it his support, forgeries amounted only to 101,000l. he but otherwise he should certainly vote could by no means suppose, from the numagainst it. ber of prosecutions, that that sum was in anywise proportionate to the number really in circulation. He conceived the present Bill to be perfectly nugatory. Amongst other anomalous principles which he had observed in it, was one which he thought particularly striking. It was an old mathematical axiom, that if two things were equal to one, they were equal to one another. Now, by this Bill, a Bank of England note and a shilling were made equal to a guinea, and the same regulation was made with respect to an Irish Bank note and a shilling, although it was well known that there was a return of discount

Mr. Taylor took a short view of the mischievous effects which had ever been experienced in all ages, and in all countries, by the substitution of a paper currency for the legal coin of the realm. He particularly instanced the consequences of this substitution in the American war, in Austria, and in France; and, drawing deductions from these examples, he strongly contended that the present Bill was highly impolitic, and likely to prove highly detrimental to the interests and welfare of the country.

Lord Folkestone expressed his surprise, that so many gentlemen who had expressed their opinions upon this Bill, should set out by declaring their disapprobation of its principle, and yet afterwards find some qualifying circumstance which might induce them not to withhold their assent. Such had been the tenour of the speech of the hon. gentleman who had spoken last. He perfectly agreed with the hon. gentle man who spoke first in the evening, that the Bill went to create crimes which did not offend against any moral duty. It would be utterly impossible to prevent the exchange of gold for notes at a discount. In a political point of view, so far from being considered an offence, he thought such a traffic was very desirable in the present state of scarcity, as by there being a gold price and a paper price for things, the specie, if any remained, would be the more likely to continue in the country. The present Bill, however, only went to increase the temptation to the crime wished to be guarded against, and after it passed, guineas would be still less in circulation than ever. It was well known, that the traders in guineas in Dublin, after the passing of lord Stanhope's Bill, became more anxious in their traffic than ever, and he had no doubt the system would now be carried to a still greater extent. From the report on the table of the House, relative to the number of Bank notes discovered to be forgeries by the Bank, it appeared that for fourteen years previous to the suspension of cash payments, there had been but four cases of prosecution for forgery; whereas in the fourteen years subsequent (VOL. XXII.)

he knew the discount to have been equal to 10 per cent. Here, therefore, was an inconsistency for which he could not account; it was, in fact, making the Bank of England and Bank of Ireland note of equal value; the fact, in truth, being directly otherwise.-He would not go into a detail of all the arguments which history and recent occurrences would amply furnish, upon the impolicy and ruinous tendency of a paper circulation. Examples had been afforded sufficient to induce the House to pause before they gave their sanction to a measure fraught with evils, and pregnant with the most calamitous events. Nor would he state the reasons why, from time immemorial, gold and silver had been preferred as the circulating medium of every nation. Their imperishable nature, their scarcity, every thing in fact had pointed them out as the best representatives of wealth. In addition to the political inexpediency of a paper currency, there were a variety of other reasons, equally strong, against it. Its inconvenience, its liability to accident and to forgery, rendered it peculiarly objectionable. Supposing a poor man, who had received one or two pounds for his week's wages, on his way home should get drenched in the rain-what would be the consequence? his notes, which would no doubt be consigned to his pocket, would come out a perfect pap, the numbers would be destroyed, and the fruits of his labour would be completely lost. (A laugh.) Gentlemen might laugh, but such might really be the case, and such were the ac(2 K)

cidents constantly occurring. He knew an instance of a poor man, who had saved up a sum of money, from the fruits of his labour, which was in the shape of Bank notes, and which he had deposited in a cupboard in his room. On going to seek for it afterwards, however, he found that his notes, as well as his bread and cheese, had been eaten by the rats. The noble lord concluded by declaring his dissent from every principle of the Bill. He would propose as an amendment, "That the Report be brought up that day six months."

Mr. Simeon opposed the amendment. Sir John Newport deprecated the interference of the legislature in cases of this kind; as it only afforded to the ministers of the day a temporary relief from their embarrassments, and went to subvert all principles of political economy.

Mr. M'Naghten thought it but fair that the Irish tenantry should have as much protection as the English.

Lord A. Hamilton proposed a clause to confine the dividend of profits to the proprietors of the Bank of England to 10. per cent. during the operation of the Bill. His object was that the Bank might have an interest in the recommencement of payments in specie.

This clause was opposed by Mr. Manning and Mr. Vansittart, and supported by Mr. Brougham; but it was negatived without a division.

Mr. Taylor proposed a clause to compel the Bank to employ the surplus, above 10l. per cent. to the purchase of bullion, which was also negatived, after some important discussion.

Mr. Johnstone proposed a clause to limit the issue of Bank notes, which was like wise negatived.-The Bill was then recommitted.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed what he termed a valuable amendment, taking away from the landlord the right of ejectment after a tender of Bank notes in Mr. Johnstone spoke against the Report payment of his rent by the tenant. It was being brought up. He said the Bill would warmly opposed by Messrs. Horner, be destructive of public credit; and the Brougham, and others, on the ground that only difference between us and foreign it was a most important alteration, deprivnations was, that they bounded into bank-ing the landlord of his only remaining reruptcy in three or four years, while we medy, and making Bank notes to all inshould be longer in doing so; but say tents and purposes legal tender. The what ministers would, it must come to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. same end at last. Simeon maintained a contrary position, insisting that nothing new in principle was suggested, and indeed that the alteration had been in contemplation from the commencement. The amendment was passed without a division; the Report was brought up, received, agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.

Mr. Vansittart was favourable to the Report being brought up. He said, we were no doubt in a state of difficulty and embarrassment, but denied that Bank notes were at all depreciated. He believed a He believed a great majority of the House approved of the Bill, and a much greater majority of the nation; and therefore it had his hearty support.

Mr. Horner, at considerable length, opposed the general principle of the Bill. The invariable effect of legislative interference was to increase, rather than diminish the evil. The root of the evil, the excessive issue of Bank notes, ought to be struck at. The rate of exchange was now, in consequence of the measures taken by government, lower than at the time the Bullion Committee sat. He remarked upon the extraordinary coincidence, that the rise in the price of bullion exactly kept pace with the augmented issue of notes from Threadneedle-street.

A division then, took place on the question that the Report be brought up, when the numbers were--Ayes 138; Noes 29. The Report was accordingly received, when

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Tuesday, April 21.

PETITIONS AGAINST THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.] The Duke of Norfolk presented a Petition from certain manufacturers, traders, and others, of the town of Birmingham, against the continuance of the Orders in Council, which was ordered to lie on the table.

Earl Fitzwilliam presented a Petition to the same effect, from the body of merchants, manufacturers, and other loyal in. habitants of the town of Sheffield, in the county of York, and its vicinity. The Petition expressed, in strong language, the opinion of the petitioners respecting these measures, and praying their lordships to adopt such measures as in their wisdom

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