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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.

SESSION 1903.

(SECOND SESSION OF THE FIRST PARLIAMENT.)

VOL.

XVII.

(Comprising the period from 17th September to 22nd October, 1903.)

SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Printed and Published for the GOVERNMENT of the COMMONWEALTH of AUSTRALIA by
ROET. S. BRAIN, Government Printer for the State of Victoria.

190 3.

F.9235.

evening.

are

to all new appointments, and to those serving only when re-engaged or promoted; and these rates were in accordance with the rates of pay recommended by a Pay Committee appointed specially to consider the same. These new rates of pay, as compared with the old rates of pay in the three large States, where there are the largest establishments of Permanent Artillery, viz., New South Wales, Victoria, and Queensland, are an increase on the average daily rate for non-commissioned officers and men ; but involve a decrease in Victoria in all ranks except that of warrant officer. They are an increase on the old rates in New South Wales and Queensland. Therefore when non-commissioned officers or men at present

It was stated by the honorable and learned member that a large number of the men belonging to the Royal Australian Artillery were being kept in Melbourne, instead of being stationed at the forts at the entrance to Port Phillip. The inference I gathered from the honorable member's remarks was that the number of men now in Melbourne was larger than formerly, and that these soldiers would be better employed in looking after the guns at the forts. I find that there are 232 men on the establishment of the Royal Australian Artil-serving, finish their period of engagement, they lery in Victoria. Of these, 142 lose in pay in Victoria, except in the case of warrant officers, but gain in all ranks in the cases stationed at Port Phillip Heads, 85 are at the of New South Wales and Queensland. Victoria Barracks, and there are five vacancies. I am informed by the General Officer Commanding that there are thirty less Permanent Garrison Artillerymen now in Melbourne than immediately prior to Federation. This small detachment of eighty-five men is now kept in Melbourne for the purposes of guarding Government House, forming guards of honour, escorts to the Governor-General, performing technical duties, and giving instructional services in connexion with the schools of instruction recently established for the Militia and Volunteers. With regard to the case of Sergeant-Major Coffey, who, we were informed, had died of phthisis and from disease contracted in South Africa, I

am informed as follows:

Sergeant Major Coffey served with the first Victorian contingent, and was invalided suffering from phthisis. He was granted a temporary pension of 3s. 6d. per diem by the Imperial authorities on 5th August, 1901, and the State Government supplemented this by another 3s. 6d. per deim. He died on the 18th September, 1902, and the widow was granted £10 for his funeral expenses, and has since been in receipt of an allow ance of 21s. per week from the Patriotic Fund Committee. The conditions attached to pensions provide that unless the soldier dies within twelve months of the date of contracting the illness, no pension is granted to the widow or relative. Sergeant-Major Coffey did not die until two years after contracting the disease. A representation with regard to Mrs. Coffey has, however, been sent to the Imperial Government, on 22nd May last, asking their favorable consideration as regards the case of the widow.

Mr. BROWN.-What was the nature of the reply received from the Imperial

Government?

Sir JOHN FORREST.-No reply has as yet been received. With regard to the statement that the pay of the Permanent Artillerymen in Victoria had been reduced, I find that the following are the facts :— New rates of pay for the Permanent Artillery were adopted from the 1st of July, 1902, to apply

The honorable and learned member enter-
tains the view that officers are treated better
tions. That is not so.
than the men under the new Pay regula-
I find that the

facts are as follow:-
adopted for them are less than the former pre-
With regard to officers, the new rates of pay
vailing rates for the respective ranks in New
South Wales, Victoria, and Queensland. Whereas
no non-commissioned officer or man has been

brought on the new rates unless he is re-engaged
or promoted, all officers were brought on the
new rates of pay at once, and fourteen of them in
consequence suffered a reduction in pay, the rule
being adopted that where the officer's salary was
above the maximum of the new rates, it was
brought down to the maximum.
Concerning the remarks of the honorable and

learned member in reference to the reduction
in Victoria, I find that—
of 6d. per day in the pay of the carters

When the new rates of pay were adopted, all
the rates or allowances for special duty pay were
revised by the artillery officers, and whilst
two carters in Victoria previously received 1s.
special duty pay per day in connexion with
carting the stores, they now, under the new
special duty pay, receive only 6d per day.
The total pay, however, with these allow-
ances, amounts to 4s. per diem, or 28s. per week,
and this is, of course, exclusive of their rations,
uniform, quarters, fuel, light, and medical attend-
ance. These privileges may certainly be said to
equal, at least, 2s. per diem more, which would
give a total remuneration equivalent to 42s. per
week (68. per diem, as they are paid for Sundays).
It is understood that the usual pay of carters em-
ployed civilly is not so high as 42s. per week. As
a general rule, the amount of carting done for the
Victorian Artillery is not very onerous.
This information was supplied to me only
this morning, and I thought it would prove
interesting to honorable members, and es-
pecially to the honorable and learned mem-
ber for Corio, to whom I shall be very glad
to furnish a copy.

Mr. THOMSON (North Sydney).—I had intended speaking at some length upon

various matters which are included in these Estimates, but as there is a general desire to adjourn over to-morrow and to secure an early division upon the amendment which has been indicated, I shall make my remarks exceedingly brief. Concerning that amendment I merely desire to say that, having appointed a military expert-and, consequently, having decided that an expert's services were necessary-it is a serious step to take the management of the forces out of his hands. I quite agree that it is for us to outline the policy which should be pursued, and to state definitely the amount of money which we are prepared to expend for military purposes; but having done that, it is scarcely desirable that we should take the details relating to the control of the forces out of the hands of the General Officer Commanding. If we wish to do anything in that direction we should deal either with the Minister or with the expert when the term of his engagement has expired. For these reasons I do not think it is advisable-especially as the saving which would be effected is a very trifling one-for the Committee to interfere in mere matters of detail. I am strongly in favour of the exercise of economy in connexion with our Defence Forces. But with that economy I think we should have efficiency, and under the present arrangement I fear that we are not getting efficiency.

For instance, in connexion with our arms-our guns and rifles and with our forts we have not that perfection which is essential if we are to be secure against a sudden attack. If the South African war has proved anything, it is that under conditions such as would exist in case of an attack upon Australia, we require not so much highly trained men as troops possessed of a certain amount of efficiency in military movements, and experienced in the use of the most perfect weapons which can be placed in their hands. If we do not secure that, our whole defence system rests upon a rotten foundation. I have in my possession some data which I had intended to place before the Minister, but in deference to the desire of the Committee, I shall reserve it till next week, when I shall have another opportunity of addressing myself to this matter. At the present moment, how ever, I shall content myself with saying that all the forces upon which should have to rely in time of warwhether they be partially paid, volunteer, or reserve forces, the last named consisting

we

largely of the members of rifle clubs-should be armed with the most up-to-date weapons. The only way in which they can be so equipped is by the Government providing the arms. They are beginning to provide them in the case of volunteer and partiallypaid forces; but they seem to have made up their minds not to do so in the case of that branch of our Defence Forces whose services are specially devoted to attaining proficiency in rifle shooting. I think that is a wrong policy. I am sure that, whilst keeping down expenditure in all directions in which a fair return for the outlay is not forthcoming, this Committee is sensible and patriotic enough to vote any sum that is necessary to provide those munitions of war without which all our defence expenditure is practically valueless. That is the position which I had intended to put before the Committee at greater length, but in deference to the general desire to adjourn over to-morrow and to secure an early division upon the amendment which has been outlined, I shall not occupy further time.

Mr. WILKINSON (Moreton).—If I rightly understand the temper of this Parliament concerning matters of defence it is that the Commonwealth forces shall consist of the adult male population of the Commonwealth. Indeed we have gone a little further than that. We have decided that it shall comprise all our male population from eighteen years of age upwards. In perusing the report of the General Officer Commanding, I notice that he speaks very highly of the cadet corps and the rifle clubs. But when I come to examine the provision which has been made in the Estimates for these branches of our defence, I find that his words represent so much empty sound. Very little money has been appropriated for their encouragement. am thoroughly in accord with all that has been said by the honorable member for North Sydney, and with much more that he might have said in regard to the treatment of these two branches of our defence force. I would specially direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that a very large number of the men who have devoted their time, and a considerable portion of their substance to qualifying themselves as expert marksmen, have purchased their own weapons. But, as honorable members are aware, the barrel of a rifle is serviceable only for the discharge of about 13,000 rounds of ammunition. Time after time the Department has been approached

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