loan would be productive of no injury, but might, on the contrary, be beneficial. The petitions were ordered to lie on the table. more secure; and as for the West Indies, it would be hard to say that the French could build a navy and equip an armament for that part of the world, before we could send one to meet it. However, in Jamaica there were to be 4000 men, though in all the years after the American war there had never been more than 1900 men. Some explanation should be given, why such increase of our establishments was necessary. Why might not our establishments be reduced below what they were after the American war? There was, it seemed, a union of three great powers, for the professed end of supporting the Christian religion. This was a pretty wide object; but if it had any meaning, it was to maintain peace by mutual pledges, and to enable Europe to return to a general peace establishment. What powers did we now apprehend? America? Were we afraid of her resolution to build one ship every year? Then we might build two. But the main branch of increased expenditure was the army. The expense of the ordnance was to be two millions, which at the period he had alluded to was 318,000l. only. The hon. gentleman concluded by expressing his strong disapprobation of the proposed enormous peace establishment; that was the great evil of which he complained, and one against which our forefathers had uniformly directed their steadiest and most persevering efforts. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY PEACE ESTABLISHMENT.] Mr. Brogden having brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply, the Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that the Resolutions be now read. On the first Resolution being put, Mr. Wynn expressed his entire dissent from the financial plan which had been last night developed by the chancellor of the exchequer. He dissented from the whole scale of establishments there laid down. He said, he had throughout the war supported ministers in their measures for effectually carrying on the war, and had objected to all premature proposals of peace, because on all former occasions he had been persuaded that a peace, if concluded, could not be durable, that it would be but an armed truce, and therefore that it would be better to carry on the war, till we might enjoy the real blessings of peace-low establishments, and a general reduction of expenditure. But what had we now? We had a large war establishment under the name of peace -we had 149,000 men in arms-a military force four times that which had ever before been kept up in time of peace. We were told that our conquests needed garrisons. This surprised him, because on former occasions he had rejoiced in Mr. Barclay said, that as he was one of those conquests, not on the ground of the the first to concur in the enactment of assistance they would give our trade-for the property tax, at a moment of national we had colonies enough before-but be- exigency, so he was now among the forecause by taking from the French their most of those who called for its repeal, military positions, we should require when the necessity for its enactment no smaller garrisons in our own settlements. longer existed. He said, he could see In how much superior a situation were we no reason against the introduction of a now to that in which we stood at the close temporary loan. If the surplus of the of the American war. France had then money-market was not thus employed, it a navy equal to our own-Holland had would go into other channels, for it was also a navy, and was in the French interest in vain to deny that many of the foreign -Spain was in the same situation-Austria loans were negociated in this country; the was connected with France by marriage, purchase of Louisiana, for instance, and and followed the steps of that country- the late contributions upon France, were, Prussia was in the same connexion. But it was understood, in a train of arrangenow the French navy was no more-the ment here. If great relief would follow army of France was disbanded-no nation the reduction of 5 per cent. of the proin Europe had a fleet. Yet we were to perty tax, what would not be the benefit have a peace establishment quadruple that if the whole were repealed? At all events, which was deemed sufficient at the former it could never be collected from landlords period. Now, both in the East and West whose tenants were unable to pay their Indies a smaller force would be necessary rents; from traders, who could make no than formerly. We had possession of the profits; and from merchants, at an aveMauritius, which made the East Indies rage of five or six years profits, when pro bably during the last year the produce of the former had been wholly absorbed. Mr. Horner said, he concurred in much of what had fallen from the preceding speaker. He would, however, take that opportunity of asserting, that the people could not be relieved from their present appalling difficulties in any other than one way; namely, by a reduction of the proposed peace establishment. It was in vain to listen to the suggestions of those who recommended a little loan; suggestions which, by the way, might be merely intended to sound the House upon the practicability of such a mode of proceeding. All this was a plain and palpable delusion; the difficulties of the country were most urgent and pressing, they must be met, and if ministers could show that there really existed a necessity for the maintenance of the proposed system, he, for one, would not hesitate to vote for the property tax. But he was firmly satisfied they were totally incapable of establishing that necessity. He had indeed consented to the enactment of that tax during the war, although persuaded of its odious, oppressive, burthensome, inquisitorial character, because he felt the force of that policy which compelled its existence. Those times had now passed away, and the real question for the Commons of England, in the exercise of their sacred trust, was at once to say aye or no to the momentous proposition now submitted to their consideration. Was it necessary to support 50,000 troops for the British isles? Was it necessary to erect a peace establishment of 150,000 men? In his opinion, he would reply, no; and he would affirm and maintain that negative through every part of the details which it was said were to be forthcoming. The situation of the country was not what it had been but a few years ago. Was the necessity of defence, he would ask, greater or smaller than at the period to which he would allude? France, at the close of the American war, had a navy almost at our shores, and superior, perhaps, to the fleets destined for our protection. Spain and Holland had also a maritime strength of no unimportant station. All these external considerations had happily disappeared, the safety of our colonial settlements was also placed on a steady footing, and yet the country was required to keep up a military force of an enormous and most unexampled extent. If such a peace establishment as this were listened to by the people of England, he would predict, in a very few years, from a measure so alien to their system, the downfall of their liberty and constitution. It was nothing less than a project to alter the uniform policy of Great Britain, and to amalgamate her character with that of the military states in Europe, by a total subversion of the principles of her constitution. By the lot of her insular situation, she was by nature a naval and maritime state, and to the preservation and cultivation of the advantages necessarily belonging to that state, she was paramountly bound to adhere. She might, indeed, be dazzled with the newly-acquired glories of her army; she might take her rank with the despots of the continent; but in vain could she expect to prolong the native pride of her free character. The two systems were incompatible. Either the government or the military establishment must give way, and when the question was a struggle for ascendancy between liberty and the constitution on one hand, and power and despotism, upheld by a military establishment, on the other, the warning experience of history proclaimed, that the struggle was short, and the termination most ruinous. Inde. pendently of these, to him conclusive reasons, against the adoption of the present measure, the financial state of the country presented an unanswerable argument on the same side. He would therefore protest against it altogether, and insist that it was a mere delusion to talk of expedients, and to hope for a diminution of burthens if the proposed establishment was to be maintained. If the people were to hope for relief, they had but one chance of having their expectations realized, and that was by a reduction of the peace establishment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he felt himself called on to say a few words. In consequence of an expectation held out, he had already given to the House some general information respecting his views of our financial affairs. He was happy to find that gentlemen were likely to come to the approaching discus sion with candour. On the question of the necessity of the establishments, the arguments of ministers must stand or fall. The hon. and learned gentleman admitted, that if they could show this necessity, he would allow it, and that it was not by any shuffling expedient that relief could be procured. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had before said, that we only required a further exertion of that perseverance and firmness which we had displayed during the contest to bring us through our difficulties. As to the propriety of maintaining the proposed establishments, he could only say, that government would be ready to substantiate their propositions, and to discuss the subject candidly. He should therefore make but one more remark; he was rather surprised to hear, when our liberties had been so long upheld, that they would be endangered by an additional force of 25,000 men. Mr. Tierney said, he did not think, as the right hon. gentleman had observed, that the increase of our military establishment from twenty to twenty-five thousand men would be forthwith detrimental to the peace and security of the country. He did not believe that their arms would be immediately turned against their fellow citizens, or that they would be employed to cut our throats. Still he was not the less relieved from the dread which they inspired. He dreaded the power of the Crown, supported by such an enormous establishment, he was alarmed for the danger that ultimately threatened the liberties and constitution of England. He felt this alarm himself, and wished he had a voice to sound it from one end of the nation to the other. The people should be warned of their situation-they should be advertised of the designs their government had in view. The House would disgrace itself, if on such an occasion it did not demand a call of its members. If ever there was a time when the representatives of the people should be universally assembled to examine the measures of administration, and to declare to their constituents the dangers which threatened them, and the way in which those dangers were to be averted, what had occurred last night pointed out this as the period. They should be assembled to oppose the measures in contemplation and to decide upon the mon strous statement delivered by the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, within the walls of that House. The noble lord opposite might smile at what he now said. He probably felt himself secure in his situation, he was confident in his overpowering majorities, and might anticipate no danger from within doors. He (Mr. Tierney) trusted, however, that he would not see himself so secure in all quarters, and that an opposition would arise from without which would induce him to change his system. The people must be roused to attend to their own interests; they must be excited to take every constitutional method of resisting schemes which would not only empty the purses, but endanger the liberties of the nation. The chancellor of the exchequer had admitted, that his hon. and learned friend had argued the question fairly and ably, (as he must be allowed to do every question on which he delivered his opinion in that House), and that he had placed his resistance to the proposed measures upon a proper foundation. His hon. and learned friend had clearly shown that there must be a reduction of our establishments, and that, without such reduction, any attempt to relieve the country by financial palliatives would be a mere deception practised upon the people. He had given it as his opinion, and stated very satisfactory grounds for believing, that there was no necessity for the enormous army which was proposed to be supported. When we had gained so many victories, and acquired so much military glory-when no external enemy could be pointed out as likely to trouble our repose, why were we to be at such an immense expense in maintaining useless troops? When the noble lord had by his negociations pacified Europe; when he had exercised his wisdom in settling the affairs of the continent, and disposed all its states to entertain sentiments of moderation and tranquillity, what pretence could there be for supporting an army of nearly 150,000 men? Had not the noble lord taken credit to himself for the result of his counsels. Had he not received a blue ribband exclusively for his great services on the Continent? And were we now to be told, that the only advantage the country could derive from them was to see their resources wasted, and their liberties endangered by a standing army, upon the pretence that the state of Europe still rendered it necessary for us to maintain a formidable attitude? When the question arose concerning the necessity of an establishment, he would ask what were the advantages secured to us by the noble lord's negociations? When the noble lord came forward with a proposition for maintaining a great army, he would ask, " what then is the use of your blue ribband?" [Loud cries of Hear, hear! and a laugh on the opposi tion benches.] The situation of the who could neither boast of the splendor of his dress, nor the refinement of his manners. The noble lord himself must have seen, that in circles where he had been, composed of high personages, no topic of conversation excited such lively interest or curiosity as his accounts of the reviews at which he had been, the varieties of uniform he had observed, the brilliant manner in which the troops performed their exercises, and the great concourse of eminent persons that were delighted with the spectacle. He must have observed how eagerly he was listened to, while he described the different species of force in the service of our allies this regiment of guards, that of hussars, and another of cuirassiers. All this might be very captivating, if it could be procured for nothing; but, unhappily, the day of reckoning and payment came, and we had to bear the expenses of these brilliant spectacles. country at present, and its situation in the year 1792 had been compared. The times were indeed changed since then, but these changes had all a tendency to show that our establishments, instead of being prodigiously increased, should be materially diminished. Our army then was not more than a fourth part of what it was now intended to be, while our navy was nearly as great as the present estimate. We had been fighting for these twenty-three years to obtain security; we had gained great victories; we were placed beyond the reach of danger, and yet our army was to be kept up, as if we were on the eve of the most alarming crisis. There was no such intimation with regard to the navy, on which this country had formerly been accustomed to rely for its protection and security. What did this predilection portend? What intention did it point out on the part of the executive? He would not hesitate to say, that in his conscience he believed it was the object of The right hon. the chancellor of the his majesty's ministers to make us a mili-exchequer could last night keep a firm tary nation. He would not hesitate to countenance while he spoke of our taxes say, that this great peace establishment and our distresses. He could talk as was the commencement of the execution coolly of millions of pounds as others of a design entertained, to assimilate this could do of hundreds. Nothing seemed nation to the great military powers on the to move him, in the statement which he Continent. This system, he believed in gave, as either extraordinary or striking; his conscience, was the one on which they but he (Mr. Tierney) could conceive nowere bound to act, if they wished to retain thing more unexpected and alarming. their places. His majesty's ministers The right hon. gentleman had congratuwere bound to support the measure of a lated the House on the flourishing state great standing army, by the very terms of our finances, and had mentioned, as an on which they held their office. They evidence of this prosperous condition, that might use any fredom with the navy, but instead of being obliged to make any loan they had no power to reduce the army; this year, there would remain 14 millions they might pay off ten ships of the line arising from the sinking fund, to be apsooner than disband one regiment of hus- plied to the support of public credit. sars. The progress of this system might There was, however, one objection to this be traced for years in all our measures. statement, which was sufficient to destroy Every day this propensity seemed to ac- the satisfaction which it might otherwise quire strength. The proper defence of yield. The right hon. gentleman had not the country, which resided in our navy, disclosed the whole of our condition to the was neglected for a more splendid and House, and had therefore left an impresshowy species of force. There was, he sion that this sum was free of all deducconfessed, something peculiarly captivat- tions. Last year there had been about ing to some persons in the array of a nu- 36 millions by way of loan voted, and 12 merous army-in the spirited horses, the millions of this still remained unpaid. splendid equipments, and rich dresses of This amount of 12 millions was to be the cavalry force, and in the brilliant ap- placed opposite the 14 millions to which pearance and regular evolutions of great the right hon. gentleman's speech remasses of infantry, in all the pomp and ferred, and would nearly neutralize his parade of a review. He was not surprised prosperous statement. He spoke this that a preference was given, when mere under correction, as he had not ascertained external decoration was concerned, to exactly the sum; but he had reason to an officer of hussars, with his fur cap believe that if not 12 millions, it amounted and whiskers, over a plain jolly sailor, to more than 11 millions. The great loan of last year remained thus nearly one- | large sum you have forgotten that more third unpaid, and if the bank had not than 2 millions will be furnished by Ireagreed to prolong the term of payment, land." This he considered as fallacy the the right hon. gentleman would have no second, for where was the Irish proportion reason to boast of his 14 millions. The to come from? He should be glad to hear bank, he admitted, might have good mo- that Ireland could furnish this supply, and tives for the assistance they lent to go- wished to know where the ways and means vernment (and none were more willing were to be found. If his right hon. friend, than he to do it credit, when he thought the late chancellor of the Irish exchequer, it deserved it), and this assistance might had been in his place, he would have applied be useful to the country without injuring to him for an answer, but not finding him, that corporation itself; but the right hon. he would appeal to the British chancellor gentleman had no right to say that the of the exchequer, and ask what probanation was relieved, till every farthing of bility there was that this sum could be this was discharged. The bank itself was raised in Ireland as her proportion of the perfectly secure while omnium stood, as necessary revenue? He did not believe at present, at a premium of between 13 that in her present circumstances, that and 15 per cent. Here the right hon. kingdom could contribute any proportion gentleman entered into an explanation, of the sum imposed upon it; he might which he conceived might be useful to almost say, that instead of being able to those who had not particularly attended yield 24 millions for a peace establishment, to the financial arrangements of govern- it could not afford a single pound. If he ment, with regard to loans, for the pur- were now asked, how Ireland had contripose of showing how the instalments are buted before to the wants of the state, he paid during the currency of the year; and would beg gentlemen to recollect that it Proving that the bank could not be a loser was principally by loans that her proporby advancing these instalments, while tion had been paid. Indeed, in such a omnium continued at so high a premium state was that unfortunate country at preas it had done lately. He contended that sent, that Great Britain would be under the right hon. gentleman had not dealt the necessity of assisting it, rather than fairly by the House in concealing from its receiving any assistance from it. He had view this unpaid balance of last year's no objection that we should even make loan, and asked, what good would the some sacrifices for the assistance of the throwing of fourteen millions into circula- sister kingdom, and he would hail the day tion produce, when twelve millions were when she should be able to return the to be taken out of it? benefit, but he saw no reason at present for believing that either we could advance the Irish contribution, or that Ireland itself could do it. With regard to the peace establishment, Mr. Tierney said he would now make a few observations. The supplies for the year were stated at something more than 29 millions; and a great proportion of this sum might be called establishments. There was 23,738,000l. of this for our army and navy alone. The noble lord opposite, had given it as his opinion, that a reduction of this sum to the extent of three millions might be expected in future years. He was even disposed to go further, and to anticipate the saving of four millions. Thus the 29 millions required for this year being reduced by the sum of 14 million paid to the bank, two millions paid in discharge of exchequer-bills, and the 900,000l. of debentures, together with four millions that might be withdrawn from the support of the national forces, would leave upwards of 20 millions, which would be the lowest to which it could be expected to arrive. "Well, but," said the chancellor of the exchequer," of this The right hon. gentleman now begged to make a few observations on the ways and means. He would have given the ministers credit for their conduct, had they followed the more prudent, familiar, and homely course of stating the ways and means before the supplies. He admitted that it was a homely and vulgar rule to count the cost before we entered upon an expensive undertaking; but he nevertheless could not help thinking that there was some wisdom in it; that it was applicable to states as well as to individuals, and might be equally beneficial in the af fairs of both. It was easier, however, and more striking, for the right hon. gentleman to come down to the House, and, after giving a pompous description of our victories, after calling for our congratulations on the dignified attitude we occupied among the nations, and telling us of our |