STATEMENT OF LIGON JOHNSON, ESQ., GENERAL COUNSEL, REPRESENTING THE UNITED THEATRICAL MANAGERS' PROTECTIVE ASSOCIATION.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, I represent the United Theatrical Managers' Protective Association. This association embraces every theater of any importance in the United States, covering the country from Maine to California, from the Great Lakes to the Gulf, and also includes all producing managers whose attraction play in these

houses.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, we have representatives here with us from each of the important theatrical and amusement enterprises in America; Mr. Marc Klaw, of Klaw & Erlanger, Mr. Lee Shubert of the Shubert interests, Mr. E. F. Albee, of the vaudeville interests, Mr. Savage, representing the producing managers generally; Mr. Winthrop Ames, of the overseas work, and others, and not only have we a representative of every other theatrical interest but also every branch of organized labor employed in theatrical enterprises, including stage hands, musicians, general employees in theaters, theatrical shop workers, and so on. We know that your time is limited and we do not expect you gentlemen to hear from all of them.

The CHAIRMAN. You understand that you have a right to submit briefs.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you divide up the time among these gentlemen?

Mr. JOHNSON. I will ask the committee first to hear from Mr. Marc. Klaw, president of the Managers' Association.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you please state to the stenographer your name and address?

STATEMENT OF MR. MARC KLAW.

Mr. KLAW. Marc Klaw; New York City. I am not going to make a set speech to you. I saw what you are up against this morning, and I am going to be as brief as I can.

It is rather unusual for a theatrical delegation of any kind to ask anything. Our whole training in times of stress and trouble has been to give. I think you gentlemen, if you would look over the minutes. of the hearing of a year ago, would probably find that there was no effort made by the theatrical people to lessen any tax, and there was no protest entered at that time, because we felt that the burden was here, and it was our burden and our duty to stand it as far as we could.

Senator THOMAS. Do you mean by that, that you had no delegation here asking for reduction of the tax?

Mr. KLAW. Yes, sir; I was here, but I made no request for a lessening of the tax.

Senator THOMAS. I have a very lively recollection that there was a request made of that kind.

Mr. KLAW. Yes, sir: I understand the motion picture men were here at one time and requested to be exempted; but we made no such request. At the time I was here the only thing I asked of Senator

Simmons was to have it clearly defined as to how the tax was to be collected, because I saw a great deal of trouble ahead at that time; and I think I suggested that a stamp tax would have been the easiest way to get the money, and the most economical of collection.

But when you come to doubling the tax, gentlemen, we are all very apprehensive after what happened last year in the first eight weeks, that you will legislate at least a certain proportion of the smaller managers out of existence. The public showed then that it did not like to pay ten per cent. It is all very well to say that they will pay any price for a good thing in New York, but New York is not the nation, and we found in going throughout the country that there was a great deal of objection to it. However, we got the public finally, after eight weeks-which, mind you, is twenty-five per cent of a theatrical season-where they paid it. But the business of the theaters suffered just about in proportion to that tax.

When the season was over we felt that we had given one performance out of ten to the Government.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you furnish the committee with any statistics showing the extent of the falling off of the patronage of your establishments?

Mr. KLAW. The theatrical concerns of the country?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. KLAW. I think I could; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We would be glad to have that.
Mr. KLAW. All right, sir; I will send that on.

Senator PENROSE. Roughly speaking, what percentage was it, do you think?

Mr. KLAW. I understand it was about 10 per cent. I understand that the New York Hippodrome looked into it and found out that it was just about that. My idea was that the average man had just about so much for amusements, and that was about as far as he could go. This report shows that about fifty million dollars was collected. last year, which would show that the per capita expenditure was

about five dollars.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not think that in a great many sections of the country, especially where these war industries are located, the average man has a good deal more to spend for amusements now than he ever had before?

Mr. KLAW. We have not found it so. We have found that the theater has been hit in many ways. I am glad you opened that subject. In the first placc, in England and France the theater has been helped. There are constantly a great many men at home on furlough. I understand that in London alone the home rest and furlough men average about seventy-five thousand all the time, and the theaters are full with that kind of patronage. We do not have that. Our men, unfortunately, go across the seas and they stay there until they come home-for good, we hope. The result of that is that we do not benefit by that kind of patronage at all.

In addition to that, I want you gentlemen to keep in mind the self-imposed tax that the theater has put upon itself in many ways. I happened to be interested in an entertainment that went out this spring that handed over to the Red Cross over $700,000 as a result of its performances. That was the production of "Out there," which you may have seen here in Washington.

I was at a dinner last night of 25 managers called together by George M. Cohan and Mr. Ames, who is present here, who has charge of the overseas entertainment. Gen. Pershing has intimated that those boys there need more entertainment. There is no provision for it, and no appropriation, and I hardly think thre will be any. The theatrical men night before last at that dinner-and there were not many men who are well-to-do there-pledged themselves somehow to raise the money necessary to send the additional units that are needed over there, and each individual got on his feet and pledged himself to send at least one unit, which means from four to six artists, to go over there and entertain those boys back of the fighting lines and in their rest places. Now, that is taking it directly out of our own pockets, besides disrupting many theatrical organizations, because we also pledged ourselves to stand in the way of no artist who wanted to go over there, but we would release them from their contracts; we would go further than that and extend the time when they returned.

In addition to this we are constantly giving these free entertainments. We are giving these entertainments in the camps; because you know, while there was an appropriation to build the theaters, there was no appropriation made to furnish entertainments. I was at the head of the military entertainment service at the time that was inaugurated. I do not want to become personal, but I am the inventor of the smileage book, and I do not mind telling you that when that was started, I advanced the money for the first one hundred thousand of those out of my own pocket, to have them printed. The profession is willing to go just as far as you will permit it; but do not make it impossible for us to do the big things and the fine things we would like to do. We feel that for the first time in the history of this country the theatrical profession has had a national recognition. Strange as it may seem to you, this is the last country of the civilized countries that has given it that recognition. It has been recognized as an institution in foreign countries for many years. In England its members have been knighted, and honored in many ways. Until quite recently the theater has been tolerated in this country rather than encouraged. It has found its opportunity now, and I have never seen in any branch of industry or any profession anything like the willingness to take hold. We send men in all directions. Every time we send a man to a camp we set up an opposition to ourselves. If we send a company to Camp Gordon, which is near Atlanta, and give a performance for 25 cents, you know the big percentage of people are not going to see that show at Atlanta at $1 or a $1.50.

Senator SMOOт. May I ask you a question there?

Mr. KLAW. Yes, sir.

Senator SMOOT. Is there any way of differentiating the class of entertainments you speak of now and the class of entertainments that does no public entertaining, and that is in business just for the amount of money that can be made out of it?

Mr. KLAW. It is very difficult, because I believe nearly every branch of amusement has been contributing; but none of them has had the opportunity to do or has done as much of it as we have in what we call the spoken drama. We have got to do it. The spoken drama, which after all you must preserve, is the reservoir of all

these dramas. There would be no motion pictures without the spoken play, and yet we have become the by-product-or rather, say, the by-product have eaten us up. They are making more money than the original manufacturers. We are having a pretty hard time to get along.

You never hear of a theatrical company or theater having a strike. You have heard Mr. Johnson say that we are backed up by the musicians and the theatrical mechanics. We have raised the pay of these men this year as fast as we can and as high as we could, but we can not pass that up to the public. We are one class that can not make the public pay it. The tendency of the theater has been on the contrary in past years to lower prices.

Your bill is so framed that if we wanted to say tomorrow, “ We want to include the war tax in the admission and charge $2.25," it can not be done, because the war tax then would automatically become a part of the admission and the tax would be charged upon the two dollars and a quarter, and it would be twenty-two and a half cents instead of 20 cents. I had that up with Secretary McAdoo when the tax was proposed. The tax must be paid on the increased rates. I understand that it was framed in that way because you have no other safe way of collecting it. I have always felt that a flat tax would have yielded more revenue. If we had a graduated tax as we go up the line, with a maximum of, say, 25 cents, we could say to the public, Here is a $2 ti ket," and we could pay the tax ourselves, and so long as the Government get 25 cents on every ticket of $2 and over I believe that we would sell more tickets and you would get more revenue. Senator THOMAS. Is it a fact that some theaters have not only added the war tax to their prices of admission, but have increased those prices also?

Mr. KLAW. I do not know of any theaters, in what I call the legitimate line, that have done so. I believe some of the motion picture theaters have done so.

Senator THOMAS. Is Keith's a legitimate line theater?

Mr. KLAW. I would call that vaudeville.

Senator THOMAS. I am told that they have done it in this town. and in other places; that they have taken advantage of the tax and added not only the tax but added to the price of the ticket.

Mr. KLAW. Keith's is a very mu h cheaper house than the legiti

mate.

Senator THOMAS. It was.

Mr. KLAW. I do not know what their prices are. But do not forget when you speak of Washington and New York-I do not know that I need go any further than that-those two cities are exceptional, just now, because of the immense population that is drawn to them. You find the result in your hotels and everywhere else.

Senator THOMAS. Yes. I was told by one man about being charged an increased price at that theater.

Mr. KLAW. I know we have the tendency with us to lower prices. In New York City the prices go up, but in New York we are cursed with the middleman, the speculator, which makes it impossible to get the price down; and I wish to heavens you had made it, in framing your bill, so that any man that buys a ticket outside of a ticket office would be taxed 100 per cent.

Senator McCUMBER. I think we can accommodate you. Mr. KLAW. I wish you would. I have gone before the Board of Aldermen, and have failed in it. I went before the Legislature in Albany with a bill that the Bar Association of New York said would hold water and was constitutional, and I was met there by a great array of counsel representing hotel owners, who knew that if that thing was done, these news stands in the hotels could not charge these fancy rentals; because they do not make $10,000 a year selling newspapers. We are helpless about that.

Mr. JOHNSON. There was an amendment like that, and it was stricken out in conference of the two houses.

Senator THOMAS. We can not take into consideration, in a bill like this, those peculiar things that differentiate Washington from New York, and we have to legislate generally. A friend of mine tells me that he went to Keith's a while ago, and he paid $3.30 for two tickets-that is, a dollar and half each and 30 cents war tax.

Before

we passed this bill the admission was about 50 cents, was it not? Mr. KLAW. That may be true; but I will venture to say that the expenses of Keith's and any other theater have gone up 70 per cent in the last three years.

Senator THOMAS. They have gone up some, but not enough to justify such public robbery as that.

Mr. KLAW. I am not willing to admit that it is robbery, although we do not do it. My personal experience is that our expenses have nearly doubled in the last three or four years. It began just before war was declared, and the tendency all the way through was to keep the prices where they were. You may say that you can get $7 for a good show, and I will admit it; but you will not get it for enough tickets to yield the additional revenue that you gentlemen are after and that we all hope that you will get. I remember Joe Jefferson said to me some years ago that he always liked to go through the country in times of panic and in bad times, because then everybody concentrated on a few shows. Concentrating on a few shows will not answer your purpose. If you want to collect the additional revenue which you need, you need more admissions instead of less. If you drive the people away from $2 theaters and make them depend entirely upon the cheaper priced theaters, you will not get as much money.

Senator PENROSE. Do you think that a possible outcome of this increased price might be a less revenue?

Mr. KLAW. Yes, sir, it will result in less revenue, because I am confident that there will be less companies. They can not exist. Gentlemen, I would not make such a statement as that in a company like this if I did not honestly believe what I was saying, because after all, you are only asking us to be the collectors for you, to be the collectors from the public, and if we believed we could get it for you, we would not hesitate for a moment to try to do so.

You know in Canada after three years of war they have no such tax as this of ours, and in France some theaters are subsidized. In Germany nearly all of them are subsidized, because they felt that they wanted to keep the theaters open. I feel that the theater has become an arm of this Government in the last eighteen months. We set aside everything else and we open our doors for thrift stamps,

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