Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Two or three or four hundred dollars. I think that is about all.

Senator REED. Two or three or four hundred dollars among those wealthy manufacturers?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes, sir; because Mr. Van Cleave only made it a point to see a very few of them. He did not see them all.

Senator REED. Think again about that, Mr. Schwedtman.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. That is my impression.

Senator REED. Two or three or four hundred dollars in the twelfth district? Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. That is my impression.

Senator REED. How about getting the manufacturers actively interested? Did you utterly fall down on that, or did you get them to take an interest?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. We probably did not go into it to the extent which you really believe, because, as I say, it was a nonpolitical organization, and Mr. Van Cleave personally only saw them. I personally never raised one penny from anybody.

Senator REED. You personally did not, of course.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Nor anybody else but Mr. Van Cleave.

Senator REED. Did you not have other people trying to get it?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. If I remember correctly, Mr. Van Cleave at one time sent

out one man, because one day he could not go out himself.

Senator REED. Then Mr. Van Cleave was out more than one day?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Oh, decidedly.

Senator REED. Decidedly more than one day?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. When I say a day, I mean he would probably give an hour or two to it.

Senator REED. How many times did he go out, giving an hour or two, in this campaign?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I should say three or four times. It may have been six times: I could not tell.

Senator REED. It might have been 30 times?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. No; I do not think so. Six times.

Senator REED. I want to read on a little further:

"I wish you were here, and we could get you an automobile to run around from one to another. It is possible that we may have to rely on you for this, because I personally can not go out. There is too much work at this office. I don't like the idea very much of soliciting funds by mail. Some of these confidential letters might get astray and hurt those candidates and us badly. But I am not speaking about this definitely in the present letter, because I have given it not sufficient thought, nor have I had the opportunity to talk it over with Mr. Van Cleave. After having his views I will write you again." You were taking some special interest in it, Mr. Schwedtman? Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Decidedly; yes, sir.

Senator REED. I notice that you say this, in closing, I think somewhat reflecting the idea that the spirit of the battle was upon you:

"Social and friendly duties must not interfere with our important work. We must remember all the while that we have promised to deliver the message to Garcia."

So you were pretty busy about this time, were you not?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. It has been my pleasure all my life to be busy. Senator REED. I mean you were pretty busy at this time endeavoring to elect Coudrey and to beat Self, and to elect Finley and to beat his opponent? Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I do not really think I gave a great deal of time to that. I do not believe, if you took Mr. Van Cleave's time and Col. Mulhall's time and my time together, that between all of us two weeks' work was done.

Senator WALSH. I am prompted to inquire whether you promoted the election of Senator Reed; whether you advocated or opposed his cause?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. We did not take any part in Senator Reed's campaign one way or the other.

Senator REED. Possibly that accounts for the fact that I was more fortunate than Self.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I think, Senator, in view of your record in Kansas City, we all would have been glad to help you.

Senator REED. You would?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. Because I have always been known as a friend of capital and an enemy of labor?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. No, sir; but as a great lawyer and as a man who did Kansas City a great deal of good as mayor.

Senator REED. That is very complimentary from that standpoint. I did not want to get the other mixed in.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I do not either.

Mr. MCCARTER. You never had anything to do with the National Association of Manufacturers, Senator Reed.

Senator REED. I now call your attention to the following letter:

F 251.

SEPTEMBER 4, 1908.

MY DEAR HARRY: It is hardly necessary to introduce the bearer, Col. M. M. Mulhall, again, but I want to send this little note on general principles.

I need not repeat to you that I would stake my whole life and fortune in the colonel's hands rather than in those of any other man living. He can stay in St. Louis for three days. This will be time enough for him to get hold of the threads of anything that he may be able to do for you. As I have said to you before, this may be much and it may be nothing; the colonel will tell you unprejudicedly what he can do, and then later on he can come back, as his judgment dictates, to keep hold of the threads.

I have suggested to the colonel that it would be a good plan to get against Finley so as to size him up. Incidentally, I dare say that Mr. Dyer and your other political friends will appreciate that, but remember that the colonel is here for you and for you solely, and anything else he may be able to do must be entirely secondary to his efforts for you.

With best wishes, believe me,

Ever your friend,

Hon. HARRY M. COUDREY, City.

I call your attention to the fact that Col. Mulhall was there.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Three days.

Senator REED. For three days at this time?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. It would surprise you, I suppose, to learn that he was afterwards back here?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I really do not believe he came back. I believe he was wanted back, but I think he was so busy in Washington State that he could not come back. That is my recollection again. I would be glad to be corrected if I am in error.

Senator REED. Pehaps we will run across it later on. I will call your attention now to a letter of September 7, 1908. That was a political year; that was not a strike year?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. It certainly was a political year.

Senator REED. This is just three days after that other letter.
Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. I read as follows:

(1864-1866.)

INDIANAPOLIS, IND., September 7, 1908.

MY DEAR FERDINAND: I left St. Louis 11.35 Saturday evening, and before leaving I met a delegation of 10 at 7.35 p. m. at my hotel and entertained them up to the last moment in every way I possibly could. 1 certainly believe that by handling the men in the Workingmen's Protective Association of your city you will be able to get first-class work done in the eleventh and twelfth congressional districts of St. Louis.

I received a letter from Mr. Shanklin to-day, which you will find inclosed with this letter, and my answer to it.

You had heard of Mr. Shanklin before, had you not?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Oh, yes; he was one of the superintendents in one of the shoe factories.

Senator REED. He was one of the men you had in your pay during the strike?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. He was paid for his time; yes, sir.

Senator REED. I read further:

"I received a letter from Mr. Shanklin to-day, which you will find inclosed with this letter, and my answer to it. Shanklin has a big hold on men in that organization, and if you handle him right you need not be bothered with any of the rest."

What did you do with Shanklin?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Nothing.

Senator REED. But you saw him, did you not?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I saw him in connection with the Workingmen's Protective Association, because all that came in at the same time, the shoe strike and the political campaign, and this was the end of that shoe strike.

Senator REED. And you saw him with reference to politics, did you not?
Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. NO.

Senator REED. After this letter from Mulhall?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. No, sir.

Senator REED. I read further, as follows:

"If you handle him right you need not be bothered with any of the rest, and I believe Shanklin to be honest and reliable, and with little pushing he will make a good worker. You will note that I have written him to call on you as soon as he possibly could, so I suppose you will see him Wedensday or Thursday of this week.

"The rooms that we have taken in the State Life Building of this city "That refers to Indianapolis now, however?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. By the way, Mr. Schwedtman, I do not like to break in on the thread of what I was doing, but referring to this raising of money in different districts, which of course was not an association business at all, although Mulhall promoted it and the officers of the association got the money from members of the association, I want to read this letter, because it is now under my eye: "I had a long interview this morning with Mr. D. M. Parry, Mr. Hanch, and Mr. Foster, and those gentlemen have consented to get an automobile, commencing next Monday morning, to make a tour with me to all the leading shops and factories of the city for the purpose of raising funds. With this committee behind me, I am positive of getting results and there will be no postponing of this work any further, for Mr. Parry has pledged to insist on having this done. This has been brought around on account of my interview with Thomas and Gowdy, for those gentlemen inform me they must have some help the fore part of next week and that they have reached the limit with the politicians and can't get any money from that source."

Really, Mr. Schwedtman, just between you and me, do you not think it is pretty hard to draw the line between an association collecting the money and getting it into its treasury and then paying it out, on the one hand, and on the other hand the association, by and through its employees and its officers, going around and raising the money and sending it over to a political committee? Do you not think it is rather hard to draw the line there?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Senator, I would not be a good judge on politics or political contributions, because I know so little about it.

Senator REED. Just while I am at it, because it is, perhaps, pat to the subject, I call your attention to E 872-873, another letter to you. It is dated seven days later than the one I have read you, and which reports for the week:

E 872-873.

INDIANAPOLIS, IND., September 14, 1908. MY DEAR FERDINAND: When there is anything good I always like to tell you about it, and I wish to say we had a very successful meeting last evening of some of the leaders of the so-called union-labor movements, and I am perfectly confident that I will surprise the chairman of the State committee here and his royal highness, the Hon. James E. Watson, along these lines in the very near future.

This morning promptly at 9 a. m. our finance committee, Messrs. Parry, Hanch, and Foster, appeared on deck and drew up a form for signatures for collections from the manufacturing plants in this county, and in the two hours, from 10 to 12, that we gave to it, we received $1,750, which seems to me to be quite fair for the opening day of this line of work.

Mr. MCCARTER. Is that a Mulhall letter?

Senator REED. That is a Mulhall letter.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. To me.

Senator REED. I continue to read:

So

"There was not a plant that we visited that did not subscribe something. far the committee is hugely pleased with the success we had and seems encouraged to continue the work. Mr. Parry and the balance of the committee will report to-morrow morning promptly at 10 o'clock sharp and will continue along these lines until we cover this entire town."

As I understand, you are something of a mathematician, and if they got that much in two hours, I will ask you how much they would have gotten, at the same rate, during the campaign?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. From the conflicting stories that I have heard about that campaign, I should say it is not a question of mathematics at all, but seems to be a matter of a big lie.

Senator REED. Do you mean to say that he did not raise the $1,750, and that it was not turned over?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. So I am told by some of the interested parties; yes.
Senator REED. Ah! So you never got that $1,750?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I am speaking of the Indianapolis committee; yes. Senator REED. The letters are here, and show whether it was paid or not. Mr. MCCARTER. We will show that is a mistake, to say the least of it. Senator REED. It is quite likely, in view of the circumstances, that that would be written and not be true.

Now, coming back to the other matter, coming back to September 10—I am going back to St. Louis now, and taking up that matter here is a letter I want to read to you. This is E 837, and it is dated September 10, 1908. It is as follows:

"E 837.

" SEPTEMBER 10, 1908.

"MY DEAR SIR: I have asked Mr. Oliver B. Root, as my own personal representative, to take this letter to you and to a few other men whom I think I know well enough not to have my action misunderstood.

“We are business men first, and interested in politics only when it definitely bears either upon the business situation or upon the principles for which every good American must stand, regardless of party affiliations. From past experiences we know that it is especially essential that we send representatives to Congress who can be relied upon for manly, patriotic, independent action."

In reviewing the situation in St. Louis I feel it my duty to call your attention to the eleventh and twelfth congressional districts. In each of these there is an avowed advocate of anti-injunction and other bad labor legislation running against a supporter of law and order and common-sense regulation of strikes, riots, boycotts, etc. I have felt it my personal duty to help financially in a small way the candidacy of Mr. Harry M. Coudrey in the twelfth district, and Mr. William T. Findly in the eleventh district. I felt it my further duty to place the facts before you. My opinion of the respective candidates is based upon personal investigation of the candidates, as well as upon their chances of success. They both need practical support; I mean money.

If you are sufficiently interested in clean politics, which I am sure will be helped by the election of the two men named, I would like to have you write out a check to the order of Mr. Coudrey or to Mr. Findly, or a small one to each. If you prefer to make out the check to me do that. I will guarantee that it will reach its destination. In either case please let bearer have your contribution, and if, on the other hand, you feel that you do not want to contribute for any reason whatsoever there is no harm done. You will even then appreciate that this whole matter means nothing to me but worry and work, and that only my interest in good government and sound laws permits me to address you in this matter.

After reading this letter carefully please return it to Mr. Root.
Very truly, yours,

President.

Mr. Root was the man that was sent out with it, was he not? Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. He was the man I spoke of a little while ago. Senator REED. In connection with that letter which I have just read, and which is a little out of its order, I want to read a letter of the day before,

which should have been read ahead of the one dated September 10, 1908. is as follows:

It

E 836.

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS,

St. Louis, September 9, 1908.

MY DEAR SIR: I have said time and again that the National Association of Manufacturers is not in politics, nor am I tied to a party, nor do I believe it advisable to have the business man play party politics. At the same time I believe it the duty of every business man to use his efforts to get our Government, National, State, or local, into the hands of the best men that can be found for the places, independent entirely of what party they belong to. Only by proving in a practical way our indorsement of manly, patriotic, independent action of men in public office, can we hope to defeat the demagogues of all parties who have caused so much trouble, worry, and financial loss to the business men. Through strenuous, concerted work, we have secured a standing in national legislation and the results of our efforts have been conveyed to you from time to time in the past, especially last winter. It is up to the 155 National, State, and local organizations that are associated with us in the National Council for Industrial Defense to prove their practical assistance to the local candidates for political office, especially candidates for Congress. I am glad to say that the need of such action seems to be thoroughly appreciated by most of the organizations.

In reviewing the situation here in St. Louis I feel it my duty to call your attention to the eleventh and twelfth congressional districts. In both of these there is an avowed advocate of anti-injunction and other bad labor laws running against a supporter of law and order and common-sense regulation of strike, riots, boycotts, etc. I felt it my personal duty to help financially in a small way the candidacy of Mr. Harry M. Coudrey in the twelfth district, and Mr. William T. Finley, in the eleventh district.

Of course, the man who was the advocate of anti-injunction laws in the twelfth district was Mr. Self, and the man in the eleventh district running against Mr. Finley was the man whose name you have forgotten?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Was it not Mr. Gill? I think it was, but I can not remember positively.

Senator REED. It may have been Mr. Gill. I am rather inclined to think it probably was. That letter shows why you were opposed to these two men.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes; or at least why Mr. Van Cleave was.

Senator REED. Yes. Of course Mr. Van Cleave was the whole thing, practically.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. This Mr. Coudrey is the gentleman who has since been sentenced to the penitentiary, is he not?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. So I understand.

Senator REED. I continue to read from this letter:

I do not know how you feel about this matter, but I felt it was my duty to place it before you.

By the way, Mr. Gill and Mr. Self are both at large and are regarded as tolerably good citizens, are they not? I believe you said you thought Mr. Self was regarded as a good citizen. Would you say the same thing about the other gentleman?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. I think so; yes.

be a good citizen

And Mr. Harry Coudrey was thought to

Senator REED. You thought he was, yes.

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN. Yes, and many of the best business men of St. Louis thought so.

Senator REED. But sometimes the National Association of Manufacturers and the National Council for Industrial Defense make mistakes?

Mr. SCHWEDTMAN, Lots of them.

Senator WALSH. I think they want to revise their opinion of Mr. Mulhall. Senator REED. I continue with this letter:

Both of these men need practical support, and if we want clean men to go to Congress it is up to us to help them. If you feel like writing out a check to