son for the maintenance of such a force. | his majesty's government after the corTo those who had any knowledge of the quest of Candy, to effect a road across colony it could not be unknown, that the the island, and when this should be commore remote districts were inhabited by a pleted an inferior amount of force might class of men, the Dutch boors, who having be required; but during the present year, lived without restraint in the time of the when above half the island had but just Dutch, submitted to it with difficulty under submitted to his majesty's arms, and when the British government. The cruelty with the military posts were so detached and which they had in many instances treated separate as to be capable of affording no the unfortunate Hottentots in their service, assistance to each other, it appeared inthe murders even that had been com- possible to dispense with the establishment mitted, called for the interposition of any proposed.-Mr.Goulburn next adverted te government that professed itself to be the garrison required for colonies in the either civilized or just. Sir J. Cradock, Mediterranean. With respect to Gibraltar, the late governor of the Cape, had deter- there was no difference of opinion. Malta, mined to establish in these distant districts though one of the strongest places, neverregular courts of justice; but so lawless theless from the extension of its works were the inhabitants, and so little inclined required a considerable garrisop: and as to yield to the tribunals what they consi- to the Ionian islands, the works at Corfu dered to be their privileges, that nothing alone, exclusive of the other islands, vould short of a military force in the neighbour- fully authorize the number of men allotted hood could ensure the execution of the for the defence of the whole. The imlaw. It is only last year, said Mr. Goul- portance of those islands had been fully burn, that the attempt to apprehend a and ably stated by the right hon. gentlemurderer in that district led to a general man who spoke before him on that side of insurrection, which was suppressed only the House. The strength of the works by the employment of a military force; when in the hands of the French had been and it is under these circumstances for such, that we had never been able to obthe protection of the industrious colonist tain possession of it. They must now, against the ravages of a savage enemy, indeed, be for the present year maintained and for the protection of the degraded by us; but he trusted, that the period was s Hottentot against a no less savage master, not very distant at which we should be that I consider a military force at the relieved from the expense of the garrison Cape to be absolutely required.

necessary for their security. The importance of the Mauritius, if not The hon. gentleman who spoke before acknowledged by all, may be estimated in him, had objected, indeed, generally, to some degree by the losses sustained by the garrisons recommended for all the this country from its being in the posses- colonies, because he considered no garsion of the enemy, and the expense in- risons whatever to be necessary, since our curred in its reduction. The population naval superiority afforded a certain means of that island had always been peculiarly of recovering the colony should it acciFrench ; much distinguished for its early dentally be conquered by an enemy. concurrence in all the violent measures of Against reasoning of this kind, Mr. Goulthe French revolution, and for its subse- burn begged to protest, as quite at vaquent attachment to Buonaparté. An riance with his idea of the protection evidence of the importance which he at- which every subject of this empire was! tached to this colony, and of their feeling entitled to expect in return for his alletowards him had been recently afforded — giance. Could it be consistent with the It was one of the first acts of his return to hon. gentleman's ideas of protection to France to send an agent to the Mauritius ; leave any class of his majesty's subjects the result was, an insurrection in his fa. exposed to the ravage and destruction of vour. Under these circumstances, could property, which were the constant and any one object to maintaining for the necessary consequences of a hostile invapresent the force proposed ?

sion? or did he think that they would In Ceylon, indeed, reductions might derive much consolation from the prospect hereafter be practicable, when some of being again conquered from the enemy means of communication between the by a friendly army, and a second time widely separated military posts in the exposed to those inconveniences which island had been completed. It was, with even the conquest by a friendly force a view to this reduction, the first object of cannot but produce ?

Mr. Goulburn concluded by observing, cuniary saving that could prudently be that great part of the increased expendi- attempted, and if they differed from those ture observable in the present estimates who opposed them on this point, he was

must be considered as arising out of the sure it was in consequence of their duty the glory we had won in the war, and the ad- having imposed upon them the task of vantages we had gained by the peace. It looking more closely into the subject than

. $had been said by gentlemen, that we the individuals had been compelled to do * could but judge of the value of a peace who had taken part in this debate. It

from the diminution of the national ex- was some satisfaction to ministers to know Lependiture consequent on its conclusion. that those who differed from them with

From those who maintained such an opi- respect to the military establishments * nion, he must altogether dissent. If the proper to be kept up, differed equally advantage of a peace consist in the ac- from each other.

The hon. gentleman ?quisition of new territory—of territory opposite had taken for his data what he ci situated in different quarters of the globe, (lord Castlereagh could never subscribe 5 important from its immediate position, or to, namely that the arrangement of 1792

from the power which it afforded of check- was that which was perfectly satisfactory, aying the operations of future war, an in- and which it would be wise, under all cirsi creased military establishment was the cumstances and at all times, to recur to.

4. necessary and inevitable consequence of What was the proof of its being applicable ti the acquisition. But although the mili- to every situation in which the empire

tary establishment was increased, it was could be thrown? Why this ; that in not, as some gentlemen seemed inclined almost every instance it was admitted it to argue, to the detriment of the navy. could not now be acted upon. It could From the very extension of our territory, not be acted upon in Ireland; it could and the increased employment which the not be acted upon in Canada ; nor could trade with them afforded to British ship- it be acted upon in our new colonies. ping and seamen, we had always within It had been thought that 12,000 troops our reach the means of commanding a were more than enough for the defence naval force without delay. The increased of the possessions last mentioned. He military force, therefore, was not more could not understand which way this was effective in securing the colonies in which assumed; for he could not tell on what it was stationed, than in giving us a com- principle it was supposed that our newly-acmand of naval means whenever the exi- quired territories could be maintained by gencies of the country might require a smaller force than was judged necessary them.

for our old colonies. It ought to be borne Lord Castlereagh thought it necessary in mind, that in our new possessions we to make a few observations on what had had to maintain some of the strongest mipassed in the present debate, and to state litary stations in the world, naizely, Corfu, what was the impression which had been left Malia, Ceylon, Trinidad, and St. Lucie. on his mind by the arguments of the gen- His hon. friend had supposed that a saving

tlemen opposite. He was extremely sen- of 23,000 men might be effected, but in **'sible of the importance of the question, doing this he had assumed that the total it and he begged to state that no false pride force which it was proposed to give the

on the part of the government would make Crown, were to be considered as effectives.

them object to the economical plans of | The statement which he (lord Castle. 14 their opponents if they thought they could reagh) had formerly made, that a tenth

have adopted them consistently with pru- ought to be deducted from their number for dence. Ministers wished to confine their non-effectives, he found on inquiry, was military establishments within the nar- rather under than over the mark. From rowest possible limits, but the saving the ninety-nine thousand men thus to be which would arise from the reductions kept up, ten thousand at least were to be which had been suggested, was so paltry, deducted, and when to these were added compared with the great sacrifice which the number that must every year be in was the condition of attaining it, that he transitu for reliefs, on the principle that was confident in pursuing the course re- the force stationed in the colonies should commended they would not fulfil the be relieved once in ten years, it would be wishes of the nation, The government found that to the 10,000 non-effectives, had come to the discussion of this question 7000 men who must always be on the seas with the greatest desire to make every pe- on their passage out or home, ought to be

! subjoined. These 17,000 men taken from had been thought to be the best in Europe, the 99,000, left an effective force of but and had on every occasion proved itself to be $2,000 men. Did the hon. gentleman superior to all that opposed it. The expense reckon the non-effectives and the reliefs of this force mighi be about one-fourth when he made his calculation? If he did greater than that of the rest of our cavalry not, it would be seen there was after all but this he held to be more than compensated but a difference of five thousand men be- by the constant state of efficiency in which tween the force his hon. friend propo- it was found.-An hon. gentleman opposed to maintain, and that which the go- site (Mr. Calcraft) had suggested some vernment desired should be kept up. He considerations which he thought himself apprehended the hon. gentleman had not bound to answer. With respect to the reckoned the non-effectives and the reliefs, home service, he must observe, that there when he thought an army of seventy-seven was a considerable part of the duty of the thousand men would be sufficient, and country which could not be done either had hardly a doubt that the error into by the marines or the artillery. He reawhich he had fallen was that of founding díly admitted the efficiency of these troops, his calculations on the gross amount of but their estimated establishment would the force which was to be maintained, not be sufficient. There were 3,000 of and not on the presumable effectives. It the marines which were always to be code had been thought that a reduction might sidered as afloat: (some of the opposiwell be made in the household troops. tion members observed, that 9,000 were The duties of this description of force, voted)-he was aware of that, but he was it was proper to observe, were not now now arguing a speculative establishment circumscribed as they were by custom in for next year. Upon the 3,000 thus afloat, 1792. Latterly he thought a wise ar- all the casualties of the service would fall, rangement had been carried into effect and therefore as those casualties would with respect to them, which left them have to be replaced out of the remaining applicable to foreign service. This had 6,000, it would be impossible to calculate been of great importance to the country, upon more than 1,500 at the highest, as as they had nerved its arm to strike a disposable for that duty at home, in great blow at a most critical moment, guarding our different arsenals, depôts, when the requisite force could not have and dock-yards. Then, with respect to been obtained from any other quarter. the artillery, of the 2,000 men kept up at This part of the army was always likely home, after the regular duties were per. to be available on any sudden emergency, formed, what would remain applicable to as from none of its detachments being that other description of duty which it was abroad in a common way, as was usual proposed they should undertake? He with the rest of the army, three, four, or would leave it to the judgment and canfive thousand men could always be gained dour of his hon. friend--and he was sure from the household troops on the spur of he would feel convinced, that it was imthe moment. They had been much ris possible to make from either of those diculed when they were first sent out of branches of the military force of the counthe country, and the idea of sending our try any deductions. He was satisfied, that heavy cavalry to meet the cavalry of so far from adding to the force maintained France had been laughed at. He had, in 1792, it would be found, when all the however, on that occasion preferred the different circumstances were taken into opinion of the Duke of Wellington as to consideration, that the present estimate their fitness for service to that of the high for the home service did not exceed that military authorities who had not admired of 1792. As to the guards, it was to be

this arrangement; and much as their dress remembered that they were not esclu| had been quizzed at that period (those sively employed in the home district.

who had seen the continental armies knew They were sent to Chatham ; indeed, that their dress was not the most extrava. there was no difficulty in appointing them gant in the world), time had proved that to any duty to which their numbers were ihe duke of Wellington was the best judge sufficient ; and the only difference to be of their merits. On a variety of occasions considered was between the expense of they had greatly distinguished themselves, the guards and that incurred by the troops and more than ever at the battle of Water of the line. There seemed to be no diloo.

The cavalry, which had been so versity of opinion between him and the much scouted, had overthrown that which hon. gentleman as to the cavalry; but a

tedbe

Liebe considerable one certainly subsisted upon blishments, however, he considered as

the question of the West Indies, though untenable at present, and that in the
he was satisfied, that when the hon. gen. West Indies was not only unsafe, but ab-

tleman viewed the matter with more delic solutely impracticable. In another year,
Ik beration, that diversity would cease. As he was perfectly aware, that many savings

to Jamaica, the hon. gentleman had to might take place, to the extent, perhaps,

tally discarded that colony out of his cal- of 4 or 5,000 men, in our colonial garri.
Asculation; but he wished to observe that it sons; nor would that be the greatest pos-
Lace: was a mistake to suppose that 4,000 men sible saving, because Ireland held out a
US

were to be employed exclusively for Ja- prospect of a still more considerable one.
maica. Out of those 4,000, there were He admitted also, that in the Mauritius,
500 employed for Honduras, and there at Ceylon, and in the Mediterranean, there
fore the real force at Jamaica amounted might be reductions in the future esti-
only to 3,500. With respect to the West mates submitted to the House. What he
India service, it should be considered how contended for was, that the amount of force
sudden the casualties were in that climate, proposed for the present year was calcu-
and that a fever might consume from 800 lated upon the absolute necessities of the
to 1,000 men, before any relief could country, and that consequently such re-
possibly be sent out from this country. ductions as had been suggested were im-
But what was the state of the West Indian possible. The House, he was sure, would
army now, as compared with that of 1792, feel that it was not pledged to vote the
setting Jamaica aside ? It was proposed by 99,000 men another year, because they
his majesty's government to vote 9,500 had supported the government in grant-

men for the garrisoning those colonies, ing that force now. At the same time, he ear. l: and if 3,000 were deducted from that wished it to be distinctly understood, that ualties i' number, there would remain only 5,500. he himself was not pledged to any reducföre a In 1792, the force in the West Indies tion beyond that of 4 or 5,000 men, replac

amounted to 4,800, so that there would arguing, as he then did, upon the actual
be an increase of only 1,700, applicable condition of our colonial possessions. It
to the existing exigencies in that quarter. was material also, that the House should

Was it possible, however, that his hon. recollect, that when they voted 99,000 our diet friend should consider it a safe line of men, they did not in fact give that force

policy, to garrison the six additional colo- to the government; they only gave to the 5, of een nies of Trinidad, Tobago, St. Lucie, Der government the faculty of raising it, which

merara, Essequibo, and Berbice, with faculty was to be exerted under all those
only 1,700 men? He was confident that difficulties always attendant upon such

such an idea never entered his mind; and measures. He apprehended that distincjer body therefore it was evident, he could not tion had been lost sight of, and that the

upon principle, reductions by
hon testing not venture, under those circumstances, bers had a reference to the gross estimate

to recommend to government so consi- of 99,000 men, and not to the effective
derable a reduction. He must beg leave force. He should not detain the House
also to deny that the situation of St. Do any longer at present, because, although

there had been observations made upon
uctions fem mingo bore only upon Jamaica. He was
adding to prepared to contend, that such an inde- some other of the estimates, he thought it
obele de :

blished in St. Domingo, was calculated to larger and more important estimate, re-
affect the whole hemisphere of the West serving, for the subsequent ones, those
Indies in its moral and political condition. remarks which might be more appro-
- With respect to other savings that had | priately made when they were before the
been recommended, he must again press committee. Before he sat down, how-
upon the consideration of the House, that ever, he was anxious to press once more
the present establishments were not pro- upon their attention, that in voting for the
posed by government as permanent ones. present establishment, parliament was in
They applied only to this present year, no manner pledged to an approval of
and to that state of things which existed similar establishments hereafter, unless, in-
in many of the colonies, and which ren- deed, the hon. gentlemen opposite should
dered it necessary that such a system of be disposed to insist upon such a pledge,
additional precautions should be adopted. in the same way as had been attempted
The proposed reduction in the home esta- upon another question. They would un-

rould be

than 12 for the

at would descripti

it to be

cel corax

make the the m: 97%

10

Constance 7, thar e servix 61 s to the that there are not red in seni 1 ditar

questionably be at liberty, in the ensuing Coke, E.

Madocks, Wm. A.
year, to reduce the estimates in any mode Caulfield, hon. H. Martin, H.
which might then seem expedient. He Campbell, hon. J. Martin, John

Methuen, P.
had given the utmost attention to the Cainpbell

, gen.

Cavendish, lord G. Milton, visc.
subject, and for the reasons which he had
stated, he could not, consistently with his Cavendish, hon. C.

Cavendish, hon. H. Morpeth, lord

Monck, sir C.
sense of duty, consent to any reduction. Cocks, hon. J.S. Moore, P.
He should certainly be most anxious to Cocks, James Mackintosh, sir J.
conform to the feelings of the House and Dundas, hon. L. Newman, rt, bon. ".
of the country, and if it were only a Dundas, Charles North, Dudley
question of reducing 4 or 5,000 men, he Duncannon, visc. Neville, hon. R.
should be disposed to run a small, though Douglas, W. Nugent, lord
not an improvident risk, to accomplish Elliot, rt. hon. w.

Dugdale, D.S. Osbaldeston, G.
that object. He was satisfied, however, Ellison, C.

Osborne, lord F.
that such a compliance as was required, Ebrington, visc.

Ossulston, lord

Peirse, H.
would be injurious to the most important Fane, J.

Piggott, sir A.
interests of the country, and therefore he Finlay, Kirkman Philips, George
hoped he should not be considered as pre- Fitzgerald, lord W. Ponsonby, rt hus. G.
sumptuously adhering to his own opinion Fazakerley, J. N. Ponsonby, hoa. F.C.
against that of others, in supporting the Fergusson, sir R. Pym, Francis
vote then before the committee.

Fitzroy, lord J. Powlett, hon. W.V.
Mr. Forbes, amidst loud cries of ques- Fellowes, W. II.

Frank, F.

Preston, Richard
tion, succeeded in effecting a hearing. He Foley, Thomas

Prittie, hon. F. A.

Price, R.
said he had but one short observation to Fremantle, Wm. Protheroe, E.
make, namely, that in a short time we Fynes, Henry Pellew, hon. P. B.
might probably find to our cost, that we Gordon, R.

Rancliffe, lord
had too few soldiers in India, and too Grenfell, Pascoe Russell, lord G. W.
many missionaries.

Guise, sir W. Ramsden, J.C.
The House then divided on an amend. Grant, J. P.

Ridley, sir M.
ment proposed by Mr. Stuart Wortley, Hammersley, H.

Grosvenor, gen.

Romilly, sir S.

Rowley, sir W.
that from the proposed establishment of

Horne, Wm.

Smith, John
99,000 men, there should be deducted Hughes, W. L. Smith, Abel
10,000. The numbers were :

Hamilton, sir H. D. Smith, Samuel
For the Amendment

130
Hornby, É.

Smith, Wm.
Against it - -

202
Jervoise, S. S.

Smyth, J. H.
Majority against the Amendment --72 Knox, T.

Sebright, sir J.

Keck, G. A.L. Tremayne, J. H.
The original Resolution was then agreed Lambton, J. Tierney, rt. hon. G.
to.

Lemon, sir W. Wright, J.A.
List of the Minority.

Lewis, Frankland Warre, J. A.
Lloyd, J. M.

Western, C.C.
Abercromby, hon. J. Burrell, Walter

Lloyd, sir E.
Althorp, viscount

Wharton, John
Babington, Thos.
Leader, W.

Williams, sir R.
Anson, hon, sir G.
Bankes, Henry
Lockhart, J.I.

WS
Atherley, a.
Beach, W. H.

Vynn, sir W.w.

Lester, B. L.
Acland, sir T.

Wynn, c.
Boughey, sir S. F.
Lyster, R.

Waidegrave, hon.cap.
Ashurst, W. H. Brougham, H.

Mundy, E. M. Wilberforce, w.
Arkwright, R. Browne, Dom.
Baring, sir T.
Byng, George

Morland, S. B. Wortley, S. A. S.
Macdonald, James

PELLEB.
Baring, Alex.
Collins, H. P.

Markham, John Calcraft, John
Bennet, hon. H. Chaloner, Robt.
Birch, Joseph Calvert, C.
Brand, hon. T.

At three o'clock on Thursday morning
Calvert, N.
Burrell, hon, P, D. Coke, T.

the House adjourned.

INDEX