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perty tax. But that call would be quite a mockery, if time were not afforded for the attendance of members from Ireland for instance, whence, through the uncertainty of winds, he himself found it impossible to make his way to this country so soon as his wish and his duty prompted. It was, besides, material to postpone the discussion of the subjects to which he had referred until the call was enforced, for it would be perfectly absurd to enforce that call after those subjects should have been decided.

Lord Castlereagh proposed to fix the call for Monday se'nnight, which would afford time enough to collect a full attendance from every quarter, excepting perhaps the extremities of the United Kingdom, and that exception might, he said, not inconsistently be admitted.

Mr. Tierney hoped that the call would be enforced to the utmost practicable extent, as a full attendance was peculiarly desirable upon the discussion of the army estimates, and the renewal of the property tax.

Lord Castlereagh assured the House that he was quite as anxious for a full attendance as the right hon. gentleman could possibly be.

The call was fixed for Monday se'nnight.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Wednesday, February 14.

Crown with a foreign power, in which

treaty sums of money were stipulated to
be paid to this country, in lieu of territo-
rial cessions, those sums amounting to no
less than 100 millions of francs, were not
at the disposal of parliament, but belonged,
of right, exclusively to the Crown, and
could only be available to the public ser-
vice by a regrant from the Crown, through
its special grace and favour, he felt it his
duty to call the attention of the House
to this subject, involving, as it did, con-
siderations of the highest constitutional
importance, and forming a precedent of
the most dangerous tendency. He wished,
therefore, to ask the noble earl upon what
legal opinions, if any, the idea that these
sums belonged of right to the Crown, had
been founded; and, if there were any such
opinions, it was his intention to move for
them, which motion, he trusted, would
not be objected to. Upon another topic
connected with this subject, he also wished
for information; he alluded to the sum
of 50 millions of francs which the French
government had stipulated to pay for the
maintenance of our army in France. He
wished to know whether this sum was to
be placed to the account of the army,
and thus come under the established con-
stitutional control of parliament, or whe-
ther it was to be issued directly to our
troops in France, without the intervention
of parliament; in which case a precedent
of the most dangerous nature would be
established, in withdrawing the military
force from the constitutional control of
parliament, a control essential to the main-
tenance and support of those principles
upon which alone the constitution could
long subsist.

FRENCH CONTRIBUTIONS DROITS OF THE CROWN.] The Marquis of Lansdowne before his noble friend's motion came on, seeing the noble earl at the head of the treasury, in his place, wished to ask him respecting a subject to which he alluded yesterday, and which involved questions of the highest constitutional importance. He referred to rumours that had gone forth respecting a statement made out of that House, that the sums to be paid by France, and which were secured by the treaty with that power, belonged to the Crown, and were not at the disposal of parliament, except through the special grace and favour of the Crown, by which they had been regranted for the public service. Forty-eight hours ago he could not have believed but that the sums alluded to were at the complete disposal of parliament; but when a statement had thus been made, and that, too, upon high authority, by which it appeared, that under

a treaty concluded by the ministers of the

The Earl of Liverpool said, that he had one difficulty in answering the noble marquis's questions, arising from this cir cumstance, that when questions and explanations were asked with reference to any thing which could not be brought regularly before their lordships, it was hardly possible to understand the exact nature of the grounds upon which the explanation depended; and this was more particularly the case with respect to those matters, the exact import and full bearing of which could not be known, unless their lordships knew the precise words which had been used. With regard to the subject itself, he could answer to the fact, that no treaties or engagements had been concluded, with reference te the matters to which the noble marquis had adverted,

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except such as were already before the House. He did, however, feel that ministers were accountable to parliament for the application of the money to the public service. The noble marquis asked, whether the money to be paid by France to this country was to be considered as the money of the Crown or of the country? There were two sums-the one, a general sum of 700 millions of francs; the other, a sum to be paid for the use of the army to be kept in France; and he would answer thus far, that, for the application of both to the public service, ministers were accountable to parliament. With respect to the latter sum, it certainly would be more convenient that it should be immediately imprest for the payment of the army, and it was intended that it should be so. But still he conceived that parliament was entitled to a due account of its application. This was his feeling on the subject; but he did not consider himself called upon to give any answer to the abstract question.

Lord Grenville said, he did not ask the noble earl to give any opinion on the abstract question; this was, however, not merely an abstract question, but a point of constitutional principle, of the highest importance, which must be decided upon at every step which ministers might take with reference to this matter. It was impossible for them to take the least step in practice, in the application of this money, without deciding the question, whether or not this money was the property of the sovereign individually, or the money of the country, to be under the control and at the disposal of parliament. It was a very different question, indeed, whether the ministers were to be considered as accountable to parliament for the due application of this money, and whether the money itself was to be at the disposal and under the control of parliament. Accountable to parliament! Why so, they were for the proper exercise of the clearest and most undoubted rights and prerogatives of the Crown. But the question here was, what were the rights of the

thing should be done which trenched on the rights of parliament, and that money should not be paid to the sovereign individually, to be at his own private disposal, where it ought to be given, merely as the head of the government of the country, to be applied, under the control of parliament, to the public service. It was one. of the most important principles of the British constitution, that the money for the payment of the army should be issued from the exchequer under the control of parliament; and unless this principle was preserved entire, one of the two great principles upon which the authority of parliament rested-the power of the purse - was gone. He did not wish to press the matter at present; but their lordships would be pleased to remember that it was a question of no light moment, for every step taken in the business was in practice a decision upon a point of the very highest constitutional magnitude and importance.

PEACE ESTABLISHMENT.] The order of the day for summoning their lordships being read,

Lord Grenville rose. He said, that when he gave notice of the motion which he was now about to submit to their lordships, and took the liberty of proposing that their lordships should be summoned, he did not anticipate any opposition to the production of the paper which he intended to call for; and since he had come down to the House, he had still further reason. to believe that the motion was not to be opposed. It certainly rested on very strong grounds. If he had understood that there was any doubt as to the propriety of laying before their lordships this estimate, he should have stated two periods of our history at which motions similar to the present were made, and precisely on the very grounds upon which he now moved. The first was in the year 1742, when this country had entered into pecuniary engagements for the support of some points of continental policy. After the result of one campaign, a proposal was made for some additional measures for the furthe

Crown, and what were the rights of par-rance of the same object, and for making

liament? He did not wish the noble earl to discuss that matter at present, or to enter into a detail of what had been done, or what opinions had been held on the subject; but he trusted that whatever inaccuracies or errors might have been fallen into in past arrangements, proper care would be taken in future, that no

good engagements which the Crown had, with the same view, already entered into. The lords at that period, in order to enable them the better to judge of the necessity or expediency of further engagements of that nature, thought it right that they should be informed of what would be the probable amount of the whole military

in so doing, they only fulfilled the just
expectations of the country; and he was
sure their lordships themselves would not
be satisfied that they had done their duty,
if they were negligent in a matter of sucht
vast consequence to the country. The
question which their lordships had now
to consider was, whether, after a struggle
of twenty-five years, maintained by such
immense efforts, and at such vast expense,"
they were at length to obtain the blessings
of that real peace for which they had so
long contended, or whether their situation
was to be exactly the reverse? Whether
they were still to be charged with an im-
mense military establishment; whether
they were now to be called upon to take
their rank among the military states of
the continent; whether they were to
abandon the wise maxims and policy of
their forefathers, by which the country
had risen to such a height, and had been
enabled to make such great exertions,
and, at an humble distance, turn servile
imitators of those systems which had been
the cause of so much distress and calamity
to the nations by which they had been
adopted and maintained? That was what
their lordships had to consider: whether
the people of this country, after all that'
they had done, after all the
firmness which they had evinced, after all
they had suffered, and were still suffering,
were to have, not the name of peace, but
the establishments of peace-the expen-
diture and taxation of peace? And it was
with that view that he now endeavoured
to bring this document before them. For
his own part, he pledged himself to their
lordships and to the country, that never,
either in that house or elsewhere, would
he fail to give the most strenuous opposi-
tion in the power of so humble an indivi-
dual as himself, to any attempts to entail
such a monstrous burthen on the nation,
and to lay the foundation of such ruin to
the constitution as must follow from the
maintenance, in time of peace, of an im-
mense military establishment. He could
not help, last year, expressing his dread
that some such proposition was likely to
be brought forward. His apprehensions
were then considered as visionary, but he
fairly confessed, that the utmost stretch
of his imagination never came nearly to
the amount of expenditure which was
spoken of out of doors as likely to be pro-
posed. He never did for a moment con-
ceive, and he could hardly yet believe,
that it was intended to keep up in time of

expenditure for the purposes then under
consideration, and an order was accord-
ingly made that the estimates should be
laid before them. The other instance
was still more exactly in point. In 1756,
the lords called for the estimates of the
year, in order to ascertain in what manner
the blessings of peace could be best se-
cured to the country. To enable their
lordships now to do their duty, and to see
how the benefits and blessings of peace
could be best secured and preserved to
the country, they ought to have the mili-
tary estimates of the year before them.
And their lordships would observe, that
at the period which he had last mentioned,
the estimate was produced to the House
on the very same day that the treaty of
peace was laid on their table; so that it
then appeared impossible to separate the
consideration of the propriety and policy
of the peace itself from that of the mili-
tary expenditure which might be neces-
sary in time of peace. On these prece-
dents he called for the production of this
document. He called for it, first, because
the country was at present called upon to
execute extensive pecuniary engagements:
and next, because, whether the treaty
should be ratified, and the conduct of
those who concluded it approved, or whe-
ther it should be ratified out of regard to
the national faith-whether the conduct
of those who concluded it should be ap-
proved or not-in every view, it was of
the highest importance that their lordships
should see what was the military expendi-
ture which must accompany the peace.
It was highly necessary, when their lord-
ships came to congratulate his royal high-
ness the Prince Regent on the restoration
of peace, and the establishment of a law-
ful government in France (and none could
more sincerely congratulate his Royal
Highness on these events than he should)
-it was highly necessary for their lord.
ships to consider whether they could con-
gratulate his royal highness also upon
this, that the peace was likely to be per-
manent; or whether, from the information
which they might thus acquire, there was
any reasonable ground of alarm on that
topic. And, lastly, he called for it, be-
cause it was, above all, of the greatest
importance, that their lordships should
take their share in those duties to the
public recommended from the speech to
the throne, by watching carefully over
the public expenditure. It was important
that their lordships should do so, because,

loyalty and

the

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peace, and in this year of peace, an army of 150,000 men. And if any thing could add to the astonishment and horror which he felt when he heard of such an intention, it was this, that an army of 50,000 men was to be kept up in the united kingdom. When that should be proposed, he trusted that time and opportunity would be given to discuss the proposition. He trusted that it was not in the course of one night, or one debate, that their lordships were to be persuaded so far to abandon the maxims and policy of their ancestors, as to cast away the hope of the blessings of peace and freedom. For his own part, feeling as he did every year still less and less desire to share in the debates and labours of that House, yet, if such a measure as this were really to be brought forward, there was no exertion of which he was capable, that should be spared to prevent so great a misfortune. And should such a measure be at last adopted, if any reflection could then sooth the declining years of his life, it would be this-that no poor effort which could be made by so humble an individual as him self had been wanting to avert from his country such a calamity.-He should now proceed to move-but he had forgotten another point upon which he intended to have troubled their lordships. He need make no apology for being warm. This was a subject upon which some degree of warmth might be permitted. But it was his wish on this occasion to have called their lordships attention to the state of our establishment in a former period of peace -he meant the period between 1783 and 1793. The establishment of that period was now to be not only doubled or trebled, but quadrupled, quintupled, sextupled, though the amount of that establishment was founded upon circumstances not now existing, and was larger than a proper policy would at present justify. Instead of joining those who argued that our present military establishment ought to be superior to that which was then maintained, he should come to the House prepared to ❘ show that parliament would not do its

In 1791 the whole matter was laid before
parliament, and instead of, 14 millions, of
which they now heard, the question then
was, whether the military expenditure
should be 1,600,000/. or 1,800,000/.? And
when at length it was fixed at 1,800,000/.
the very next year the minister came
down to the house, and proposed-he
thought it worth his while to propose-a
reduction of 50,000l.-no bad proof that
it was not then thought that the military
expenditure had been fixed at too low
a rate. Their lordships now heard of
eight millions for the navy. The expen-
diture then proposed for the navy was two
millions, or 1,800,000/.; and when it was
fixed at 2,000,000l. a reduction was after-
wards made in it to the extent of 100,000l.
He had heard it was said, that the great
man who was then minister had changed
his opinion, and had observed, that in act-
ing to the best of his judgment, in requir-
ing only 1,800,000l. for the army, and
1,800,000l. or two millions for the navy,
he thought, on reflection, that he had ill-
discharged his duty. It was his fortune
to have lived on the most intimate terms
of communication and friendship with that
great man. It was difficult for him, at
such a distance of time, positively to assert
a negative. But he did most positively
declare-and he trusted their lordships
would do him the justice to believe that
he spoke as if he were on oath at their
bar-that he had not the smallest recol-
lection, that he had no belief, that Mr.
Pitt ever expressed himself otherwise on
that subject than in terms of self-congra-
tulation and conscious satisfaction that he
had, by the most scrupulous economy, at
that time enabled the country to meet
that dreadful period of trial which it had
afterwards to encounter. In 1792, Mr.
Pitt in another place, and himself in their
lordships House, referred to the circum-
stance as a proof that those who had pro-
posed such a reduction then did not will..
ingly plunge into war in 1793. Mr. Pitt
might have said, that if he had known in
1792 what was to have happened in 1793,
he would not have wished the establish-

duty, unless it insisted upon an establishment to be so low in 1792. And he said

ment below that which then existed. He well remembered that at that period there was considerable doubt whether the establishment was not larger than the circumstances called for. The subject was much discussed, and the propriety of so large an establishment was rested on the peculiar circumstances of Europe at that period. (VOL. XXXII.)

now, that if he could have then foreseen the extent to which the madness of the French revolutionists would have gone, and the extent of the folly, not to say treachery, of those who then directed the counsels of the king of France, he would have proposed a higher military establishment in 1792. But, as to (2L)

:

the period between 1783 and 1792, hé | urgency, had not existed for every mea

would say for himself, and undertake like-
wise to say for Mr. Pitt, that if they had
been fully aware of what was to follow,
they would not have proposed a higher esta-
blishment, for they were convinced that
nothing but the lowness of the expendi-
ture at that time could enable the country
to meet the expenses and sacrifices which
it was afterwards called upon to endure.
And if, for the benefit of this country
and of mankind, we could now be blessed
with the presence of that great man, he
was fully persuaded that such would be
the sentiment which he would express. If,
then, any thing were wanting, in addition
to the sense of duty and a due regard to
the public welfare, the weight of the
authority of that great man must be taken
into account. He was convinced, that if
Mr. Pitt were now alive, he would, on the
ground which had been stated, have
anxiously enforced the propriety of a low
military expenditure at this period of
peace: and it was only by following the
plan of that great man, and bringing the
expenditure for the army and the navy to
the very lowest practicable point, that any
hope remained of extricating the country
from those difficulties in which it was in-
volved, and relieving it from those bur-
thens which pressed so heavily upon it.
He repeated, that against the monstrous
attack upon the constitution implied in
this enormous military establishment in a
time of peace no efforts of his should be
spared, and he trusted their lordships
would exert their constitutional powers to
prevent the country from being subjected to
this grievous and ruinous burthen. The no-
ble baron concluded by moving, "That an
humble address be presented to the Prince
Regent, praying that his royal highness
would be graciously pleased to give di-
rections to the proper officer to lay before
the House the estimates for the military
service for the present year."

The Earl of Liverpool said, that he did not rise to offer a single word in opposition to the motion of the noble lord; on the contrary, he should be ready and anxious to supply all the information required. When the discussion should regularly come before the house, he should be prepared to meet all inquiry, point by point, in justification of the measures adopted by himself and his colleagues in office. He was willing that the question should be put upon this issue, whether a public necessity, or at least a public

sure adopted in the formation of the peace
establishment of Great Britain; and if the
affirmative were not satisfactorily made
out, for his own part he should submit to
any censure, however severe, that parlia-
ment might think fit to pass upon his con-
duct. Such being his view of the sub-
ject, it might be supposed that all his duty
now required was, to give his assent to the
motion, reserving until a future day a
more detailed explanation. But even if
the noble lord had not thought fit to make
the address he had just submitted, such
extraordinary and unreasonable fears had
been excited upon this subject, that he
should not rest satisfied in the complete
discharge of his duty, if he did not take
this opportunity of entering more at large
into several of the points, for the sake of
removing some of these ill-grounded and
idle misapprehensions.
If such a line of
conduct would have been necessary, even
had the motion been simply put from the
woolsack, it was imperiously demanded,
after what their lordships had that night
heard, no doubt with astonishment, not,
indeed, at the maxims uttered and prin-
ciples laid down by the noble lord; not at
the anxiety he expressed, and in which
all men joined, that not a single guinea
should be expended that was not called
for by an overpowering necessity; but at
the extraordinary view he had taken of
the necessities of the country in the cir-
cumstances in which it was now placed.
The earl of Liverpool said, he knew of no
fairer mode of considering the subject
under discussion than that which had been
elsewhere adopted, namely, to consider
coolly and deliberately, first, the real state
of the nation with respect to her own
dominions and those of foreign powers,
and then inquire what establishment was
necessary to preserve the integrity of her
possessions, and to maintain the rank in
peace that she had acquired in war. The
noble lord had said much upon the sub-
ject of the peace establishment of 1792,
and of its comparative economy; but
surely he could not be ignorant that the
present half-pay of the army, and the
many additional allowances granted (as
he had originally contended, extravagantly
and improperly) by parliament, would
actually amount to more than the whole
extent of the military establishment be-
fore the year 1792. Was the House to
dismiss from its consideration these im-
portant circumstances? Was it to forget

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