HOUSE OF LORDS.

of expense to be incurred. On another

question also, the pecuniary indemnity to Triday, February 23.

be paid by France, he wished to bring the SUBSIDIARY Treaties.] The Mar- question before the House, whether the quis of Lansdowne, in pursuance of his sums paid on account of it, and the issues notice, adverted to the information which out of those-soms, were subjected to the it became necessary to move for, in order regular constitutional control of parliato elucidate some points connected with ment? The noble marqnis concluded by the treaties which they had recently had moving for an account of the sums paid under discussion. He alluded more par- by Great Britain to the governments of ticularly to the subsidiary treaties for pro- Hanover and Brunswick Lumeburgh, on curing a considerable German force in aid account of the treaties concluded at Paris of the common cause. In what was in August last ; and also an account of the stated by the ministers respecting this sums paid by the French government, on subject in the course of last session, it was account of the pecuniary indemnity to be distinctly alleged, that the whole expense paid by France, to whom paid, and the of these subsidies was to be at the rate of payments made thereout. 11l. 2s, per man.

Yet it now appeared by Earl Bathurst said, he had no intention the documents on the table, that in August of opposing the motions, and could assure last two ex post facto treaties were con- the noble marquis, that when he laid the cluded at Paris with the governments of papers on the table, he should explain the Hanover and Brunswick Luneburgh, under motives of the treaties with Hanover and which the whole expense incurred for Brunswick Luneburgh in a manner that every man sent to our armies by these go- would, he trusted, be perfectly satisvernments was to be defrayed by this factory. country; and not merely this, but even The Earl of Lauderdale suggested, that the kettles and drums were to be included this country, in addition to the expense in the amount of expense and paid for in mentioned by his noble friend, was also the same way. He trusted no one would charged with the payment of pensions to suppose that in saying this, he meant the the Hanoverian troops, the widows of offislightest reflection on the troops of those cers, &c. and that this item should be instates which were employed by us; on the cluded in the motion. contrary, their gallantry and bravery were This was done, and the motions thus deserving of every encomium. His object amended, were agreed to. was to protest against this system of concealing from parliament facts with which

II OUSE OF COMMONS. they ought to be made acquainted; he being entitled to assume, that ministers,

I'riday, February 23. at the time they stated the whole expense PETITIONS AGAINST THE PROPERTY of these troops to be incurred at til. 2s. Tax.] General Loftus presented a petiper man, must have known of those cir- tion from the inhabitants of Great Yarcumstances, whatever they were, that mouth in the county of Norfolk, against would be the cause of our incurring that the property tax. further expense, which was the subject of Mr. Lacon thought it his duty to state the two treaties subsequently entered into. his reasons for dissenting from the prayer A similar thing happened in the session of the petition presented by his hon. col. before last, when, without the knowledge league.' He should vote for the property of parliament a treaty was concluded for tax, because he was convinced that, in the maintaining the Russian navy then in our distressed state of the country, neither the ports, by which an expense of 500,000l. present, nor any set of ministers, would was incurred. The treaty was not com- impose such a burthen, if it were not abe' municated to parliament until long after-solutely necessary. He deprecated the wards, and to this day the motives of it re- mode which had been suggested by an mained unexplained. He deprecated this hon. alderman of raising the money wanted kind of concealment, which had been so by loan. But should it be proposed to strongly also exemplified in the present continue the property tax for more than a instance, in the treaties concluded with year or two, however modified, it should Hanover and Brunswick Luneburgh, in then meet with his decided opposition. lo direct contradiction to the assurances of all local matters he should most implicitly ministers to parliament, as to the amount obey the directions of his constituents, (VOL. XXXII.)

(3G)

but, in political questions, he should re- among many other topics of grievances tain the right of expressing his own opi- the petitioners particularly alluded to the nions.

impossibility of paying the poor-rates, the

tenants property tax, and the tythes, out AGRICULTURAL DISTRESSES.) Mr. of the produce of their farms. They also Holme Sumner said, that considering the referred to the great relief wbich they anxiety which must necessarily be felt would experience from the repeal of the throughout the country as to the nature of war malt duty. the relief which it might be in contempla- The petition was ordered to lie on the tion to propose for the agriculturalists, and table. especially in reference to the notice already Sir Thomas Acland presented a petition given by an hon. member, whose knowledge from certain gentlemen, proprietors and and experience on that subject were much cultivators of land, residing in the vicinity looked up to, he hoped he should not be of Exeter, complaining of the distress regarded as taking an unparliamentary which they felt." He stated, that there course in requesting from that hon. gen- was one circumstance connected with the tleman some general outline of the propo- petition, which was peculiarly worthy of sition which he intended to submit to the the attention of the House. It was signed House.

by about 500 of the principal yeomanry · Mr. Western replied, that he should be of the county, that highly respectable most happy to comply with the request of and most important class of the commuthe hon. member, if he thought that by nity. Though they were not numeso doing he should be acting consistently rous, they might fairly be considered as with the very nature of the motion of speaking the sense of that part of the which he had given notice. That motion country. The hon. baronet stated the

. was for a committee of the whole House substance of the petition, which referred to take into consideration the distressed to the extreme distress felt by the agristate of the agriculture of the country, cultural interest, which was so great inand to devise some means for relievir deed, that they were compelled to draw it from the perilous and unexampled upon their capitals in order to support difficulties under which it now labour- themselves; and that they would resort ed. If, therefore, he were to antici- to other means than the cultivation of the pate the object of that motion by any ground for that support, if there were any premature statement, he should defeat it profitable mode of employing their money. altogether, as his sole view was to elicit They concluded their petition, not by callthe collective wisdom and information of ing for any specific relief, but by throwing the House. For himself, he certainly had themselves on the feelings and sympathy some plans which be intended to propose, of the House, and relying upon their judgas likely to be productive of the desired ment for the best means of affording it. relief, but he could not think it expedient -Upon the petition being read by the to state them at the present moment. clerk,

Sir C. Burrell presented a petition from Mr. Brougham expressed his surprise, certain land-holders, land-owners, &c. of that the hon. baronet, in stating the subthe town of Steyning, in Sussex, complain- stance of the petition, bad omitted to ing of the agricultural distresses. The mention the property tax, as one of the hon. baronet was about to read the peti- principal causes of the distress complained tion, when

of. He was led to conclude that the peti: The Speaker reminded him, that it was tion was merely a general and vague apthe duty of a member to state the sub- plication to the legislature for relief, withstance merely, and that of the clerk at the out pointing out any means by which the table to read it at length. It would be an relief could be obtained. It appeared, entire departure from parliamentary prac- however, from the reading of the petition, tice, for any hon. member to read the that the omission was in the hon. baronet whole of a petition, though he was cer- himself, and not in the petition. The tainly at liberty to read particular parts. petitioners themselves were aware of the

With that explanation the hon. member source of their sufferings, though the hon. -would not be at a loss as to what he was baronet did not think fit to touch upon it. to do.

In point of fact, therefore, the petition Sir C. Burrell proceeded to state the was as much a petition against the prosubstance of the petition, observing, that perty tax, as it was for relief generally.

Sir T. Acland said, he wondered the Mr. Preston thought that the man who hon. and learned gentleman did not ex. did not tell the truth at the present mopress another part of his surprise, that any ment, was a traitor to his country. In one could be so devoid of common sense twelve months time the country would as to come down to that House with a want the necessaries of life. Did not the petition, of which he wished a part to be House know that one part of the metro. concealed, and yet desire it to be read at polis was starving? Some were supported length by the clerk, in order to expose by charity, and others running towards his own inadequacy. If the hon. and prison and ruin: 'A vast trade was carried learned gentleman had only done him the on in smuggling corn from other counhonour to attend to the general way in tries. He did not mean to oppose tlie which be opened the matter of the peti- petition, but he thought it his duty to tion, he would have had no occasion to speak his opinion, when the country was make the remarks which he had so preci- rushing into ruin by the immensity of pitately offered to the House; and if he taxation on the one hand, and the weakwould only allow bim to go through the ness of ministers on the other... other petition which he held in his hand, he Sir T. Acland presented a petition to would see from his conduct, whether he had the same purport, and in the same words any design to suppress or omit any thing as the first, from the gentlemen promaterially connected with their object. prietors, cultivators, and occupiers of

Mr. Brougham disclaimed any idea of land, bear Honiton, in the county of imputing to the hon. baronet the motives Devon, which was read and ordered to which he seemed to imagine was his in- lie on the table. tention. He only meant to express his Sir T. Acland then stated, that he held surprise at finding the contents of the several petitions of a nearly similar nature, petition differ so materially in a substan- from various parts of Devonshire. One tive part of it, from what might have been of them recited the distresses of agriculexpected from the manner in which it had ture, and called upon the House for re. been opened by the hon baronet. lief from the great burthen of taxation

The Chancellor of the Exchequer ob- principally owing to the property-tax. served, that his hon. friend had only stated Another stated, that as the land-owner generally the grievances of which the paid 10 per cent., and the land-occupier petitioners complained, and the hon. and seven, the whole amount of the tax was learned gentleman had no right to say in fact 17 per cent. He concluded by that the petition was against the property presenting those petitions, which were tax, more than any of the other griev- read, and ordered to lie on the table. ances.

Lord Binning thought, from the man- MONUMENT TO SIR THOMAS Picton.) ner in which the hon. and learned mem- Mr. Jones observed, that as he saw a ber had described the nature of the peti- right hon. gentleman in his place, who tion, that he would find the property tax was chairman of the committee for superput forward in it as a great and leading intending the erection of national monugrievance. But he saw that it was only ments, he wished to know whether only mentioned in company with servants" 3000 guineas was to be the sum allotted to wages and manure.

the erection of a monument to the me. Mr. W. Smith observed, that even in mory of sir Thomas Picton.

He certhat case, as the property tax was the tainly thought that sum too small, and subject which occupied the consideration the more so, as he had been in St. Paul's of parliament, and not servants’ wages and that day, and observed several monumanure, the petition must be considered ments erected to the memory of post capas against the property tax.

tains in the navy, some of which had cost Sir T. Acland considered that the state- four and even six thousand pounds. ment of the hon. gentleman would have Mr. Long replied, that no person could made it appear, as if he wished to sink be more sensible of the eminent services the merits of the question. That was far of Sir Thomas Picton than he was; but as from his intention. Had that hon. mem- to the sum allotted for his monument, that ber considered the petition, he would have did not fall within his department, it being found that it stated all the burthens which altogether at the discretion of the Lords pressed upon agriculture, and the pro- of the Treasury. He could state, howperty tax only, as one amongst the rest. ever, that the sum certainly was to be

3000 guineas. He was not aware that necessary to repeat, to fulfil his munificent any of the monuments in St. Paul's,' intentions, he was naturally anxious that erected to the memory of post captains the public should enjoy the advantage of in the navy, had cost a larger sum, though his labours. As to the amount of the reit might possibly be the fact. But it muneration to be given to his lordship, should be remembered, that during the the right hon. gentleman wished to leave war, the difficulty of procuring the marble it to the judgment of the house. The colusually employed for monuments was so lection was too well known to make it negreat, and the expense so much larger, cessary for him to refer to the opinions of That what then cost as much as six gui- the most eminent artists ; it was, beyond neas per foot, was now reduced to some- all question, the most ancient and genuine what about two guineas. A less sụm that had ever appeared, and the country therefore, would be necessary for a mo- would be naturally proud of possessing a aument of equal magnitude.

mass of models for the arts, which the Mr. Jones said, that the answer of the united collections of Europe could hardly right hon. gentleman was not satisfactory produce. The committee, however, for to him; and he was proceeding to make which he intended to move, would be some further remarks, when the Speaker enabled to call proper judges before them reminded him, that as he had not an- in order to ascertain the value. It was nounced his intention of concluding with agreed, on both sides of the House, that, a motion, there was then no question be- in the present situation of the country, it fore the House. Mr. Jones apologized was in the highest degree desirable to for the irregularity, of which he was not avoid any unnecessary expenditure; but it aware, being only a young member of that should not be forgotten, that if the preHouse, and stated that he should feel it sent opportunity was neglected it might his duty, on some future occasion, to never occur again. He saw no prospect bring forward a motion upon the subject, but, in the course of a short time, these unless he was anticipated by the right exquisite works of art must be dispersed, hon. gentleman, or some other member. or disposed of to foreign purchasers. The

House had before an opportunity of acTHE EARL OF Elgin's PETITION.] quiring a valuable collection, and they The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose, in həd, for public purposes, and on public pursuance of his notice, to call the atten. grounds, availed themselves of it. They tion of the House to the collection of had now the offer of a more splendid colmarbles in possession of the Earl of Elgin. lection; and it was certainly one of the Towards the close of the last session of most wonderful events of the day, that the parliament, the noble earl had presented works of Phidias should become the proa petition to the House, praying that an perty of a native of Caledonia. The deinquiry might be made into the value of sire of conferring honour on the arts as his collection, which he was desirous of well as on the arms of this country was .selling to government for the use of the the object of his motion; for, of all the

public.* The circumstances under which arts, sculpture was at present the least the noble lord had become possessed of fourishing in England. He should therethose matchless productions were so well fore move, “ That the Petition of the known, that the right hon. gentleman earl of Elgin, which was presented to the said, he would not trouble the House at House on the 15th of February last, be any length on the subject. They were referred to a select committee, and that

acquired by him, in the course of his mis- they do inquire whether it be expedient -sion to Constantinople, with the greatest that the collection therein-mentioned

exertions, and at a very considerable ex- should be purchased on behalf of the pense, and might be justly considered as public; and if so, what price it may be the most valuable works of art that had reasonable to allow for the same." ever been brought from the western parts Lord Ossulston said, he could not obof Europe. Every person acquainted ject to procuring the advantage of such with that noble lord must be aware, that an interesting collection to the country. bis object had been solely directed to the A question, however, might arise, wheadvancement of the arts; but being unable, ther an ambassador, residing in the terri. from circumstances which it was then un- tories of a foreign power, should have the

right of appropriating to himself, and de* See vol. 31. p. 828. ; riving benefits from objects belonging to

*

that power. It was not the respect paid upon this subject, and that there would to lord Elgin, but to the power and great- be no opposition to the appointment of a ness of the country which he represented, committee. that had given him the means of procuring Mr. Gordon thought it his duty in anthese chefs-d'auvres of ancient sculpture. swer to the remark just made, that there He thought, therefore, that the House could be but one opinion on the subject, should go no farther than to remunerate to say, that in his judgment, the present the noble lord for the trouble and expense distressed situation of the country did not at which he had been in bringing over call upon parliament to make a purchase these marbles.

of a set of marbles. However desirable Mr. Bankes said, that the Committee these marbles might be for the promotion of would have to ascertain the mode in the arts, it would be very impolitic and imwhich the noble lord obtained these mar- proper at this time to incur any unnecesbles, the expense to which he had been sary expenditure. He therefore wished put with respect to them, and what degree the right hon. gentleman to postpone this of vested right the public already pos- measure till the country had been relieved sessed in them. The noble lord could from the burthens which now oppressed it, -.certainly not be considered as an inde- Mr. Tierney said, that no man could pendent traveller, who had a right to dis- feel more anxious than himself that these pose of, at any price that he could obtain, works of art should not be scattered over whatever he might have collected in the the country, or be suffered to leave it. If course of his researches. He had availed the object of the motion was to inquire himself of his character as an English am- whether lord Elgin had become possessed hassador to facilitate the acquisition. He of them in consequence of his public func- , confessed, that instead of leaving the tions, and what expenses he had incurred, question altogether to parliament, he he was ready to agree to a committee; should have thought it better had the but not that particular artists should be noble lord fixed the price that he re- asked what they conceived to be the value quired. Under all the circumstances, of these marbles. He thought the com, however, although he was persuaded that mittee should be instructed how they the Committee would have an inconve- ought to conduct themselves. It had been nient and a laborious task, and although stated that lord Elgin formerly applied to he felt very sensibly the difficulties of the Mr. Perceval on this subject, who offered times, yet the collection was one of such a specific sum of money, which bis lordacknowledged value, one so unrivalled in ship refused. He did not see, therefore, its nature, and which it was so much to why the offer should be repeated. He be desired that the public should possess, thought an inquiry should be instituted as that he could not hesitate to entertain the to the extent of his expenditure in proproposition made by his right hon. friend. curing these marbles. Part of them were

Mr. Abercrombie agreed that it was a brought over in ships of war, and conse matter of public duty not to hold out a quently at the public expense. If it were precedent to embassadors to avail them. merely intended to hold out encourageselves of their situation to obtain such pro- ment to embassadors to enrich their perty, and then to convert it to their own country with works of arts, then the mo. purposes. He was sure, however, that tion was creditable to the right hon. the the noble lord would inform the commit- chancellor of the exchequer ; but if he tee of the extent of his facilities. As to meant that the noble lord, availing him, obstacles in forming a reasonable estimate, self of his official character, should now he conceived it would not be found so call himself the possessor, he would not difficult as the hon. gentleman seemed to agree to the motion. He thought it imthink. What they would have to do was, proper, in the present situation of our to inquire whether these marbles were finances, that the House should be invited really so valuable to the public as they to purchase them. The right hon. gen. were represented to be, and then to ascer- tleman had said, it was very desirable to tain what

the noble lord had ex- possess them. This might be very true, pended in procuring and bringing them there were a great many things which he to this country. It would then remain would wish to have, and he was sorry he for the House to decide upon the sum to had them not; but he was bound to conbe given to his lordship: Generally, he sider his means, and the right hon. gen. believed, there could be but one opinion tleman should do the same.