Senator MORGAN. But that is below the mouth of the San Carlos? General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Now, taking the upper part of the river, you speak of the Lull project. Lull made a survey?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And so did Childs?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. In their general features did they correspond in the measurements that were taken and the calculations that were made?

General HAINS. Well, yes; to within reasonable limits.
Senator MORGAN. Which was the most complete survey?

General HAINS. I could hardly say which was the most complete. I should rather take it that Lull's was more complete than the other, because he had to start with all the data that Childs had obtained.

Senator MORGAN. Now, there were the Lull survey, the Childs survey, the first and second Menocal survey-was it?

General HAINS. I do not know whether Menocal was with Lull on the first survey, but I speak of the first and second, one made at the instance of the Government of the United States, and the other made at the instance of the canal company.

Senator MORGAN. Oh, yes; of the canal company. And then the examination by the Ludlow board?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And the examination by your board?
General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. So the subject has been pretty well investigated? General HAINS. I think it will have been pretty well investigated by the time we get through, if we ever do get through.

Senator MORGAN. Perhaps there is no other work projected in the world that had such thorough examination before it was laid down. General HAINS. Well, Senator, there is one thing to be said about that. This is a project that involves the expenditure of a very large sum of money, and an expenditure of, say, 1 or 2 per cent of the cost of it would be comparatively small in determining the best plan.

Senator MORGAN. I know; but I was speaking of the fact that no other great public work, so far as I know, had ever received so much preliminary attention as this has done.

General HAINS. I do not know of any large public work that has received more consideration.

Senator MORGAN. Not so much. The Suez Canal certainly did not receive so much, nor the Panama Canal.

General HAINS. That is true.

Senator MORGAN. Are you prepared to speak about the comparative amount of work that was included in the Menocal survey and in your examination and in the Ludlow report which relates to the excavation of rock out of the river? Did you find more than you expected or less than you expected?

General HAINS. I do not know what the reports have been. Admiral Walker told me the other day that our boring parties-I have not seen the reports from them-found less rock than we expected to find on the Upper San Juan.

Senator MORGAN. We will come down, then, to the Ochoa location. That is a point at which Menocal projected a very high dam? General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. A dam that would throw the water back to the level of the canal?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Did you make any investigation of that in the course of your examination?

General HAINS. We were there twice. We visited the site there, and then we camped for a couple of days and made as careful an examination as one could make by personal observation.

Senator MORGAN. You discovered, there, that there was a rock foundation entirely across the river?

General HAINS. Yes; our boring parties discovered that.

Senator MORGAN. Some 60 feet below the level of the sea, I believe, at the center of the river?

General HAINS. I have got sketches here made by the man who has charge of that very work [examining]. Senator, I thought I had those sketches with me, but I have not. I thought perhaps it would be of interest to you to see them. They found rock somewhat deeper than was anticipated, but still solid rock.

Senator MORGAN. Clear across the river?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And extending into the hills on either side?
General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. It appears that all parties who have examined this route agree that from Ochoa westward to the lake the proper location of the canal is along the river-in the river?

General HAINS. Yes, sir; I think nearly everybody agrees on that. Senator MORGAN. And then either at Ochoa or at some place lower than Ochoa is the point of departure for canalization through the country. I understand that from about that point leading to Greytown there are three proposed routes, one called the high-level route, another the low-level route, and then an intermediate route, the compromise route.

General HAINS. What you call the Tambour Grande. It is the construction of a dam at Tambour Grande.

Senator MORGAN. You leave the Tambour Grande and go across the divide?

General HAINS. There are more than that. There is also the project of a lock, say, at Machuca Rapids, which reduces the height of the dam at Ochoa.

Senator MORGAN. I know. I was coming to that. I am speaking now of the three proposed lines, either one of which would be available, and it would only be a question of convenience, durability, and costGeneral HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. In selecting between either of those three lines. Going back to the Machuca Rapids

General HAINS. Then there is, also, Senator, the question of a lock and dam system on the river. That has been discussed, but it has never been very seriously considered.

Senator MORGAN. You mean that between Ochoa and the lake? General HAINS. No, not alone that part, but a system of locks and dams for the river from Lake Nicaragua clear down to the ocean. Senator MORGAN. Did your commission consider that proposition? General HAINS. Well, I think the commission could consider the question.

Senator MORGAN. But not with any probability of it being favorably considered, if I gather your idea

General HAINS. I am not much in favor of it with my present information.

Senator MORGAN. I do not wish to get any opinion that would in the

slightest degree affect your freedom of action on this question or any point of it.

General HAINS. I would rather not express my opinion on that route. Senator MORGAN. Very good. Roughly speaking, of course profes sionally, but not with a view to your ultimate conclusions, what would be your idea of the relative cost between the high level, the low level, and the compromise or central line of either of these routes?

General HAINS. That would be a pretty hard question to answer, Senator. My impression is that the low level would be the cheapest. It is somewhat longer than the high level, but I think perhaps it would be cheaper. But on that point that is more an opinion that I acquired without a careful consideration of the subject.

Senator MORGAN. Do you think it is practicable at a reasonable cost to shut out the San Juan River from the low-level canal so as to give it entire protection against flooding? Do you think it is practicable at a reasonable cost to embank against the inundations from the San Juan River so as to make a canal entirely secure?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. You think it is?

General HAINS. Yes, sir. That is another opinion now, because we shall have

Senator MORGAN. I know these are all opinions; they are nothing but opinions.

General HAINS. I might modify that opinion on a careful study. Senator MORGAN. Yes; I know. Did you find any reason for suspecting that the surveys heretofore made, either by Lull or Childs or Menocal, were negligently or carelessly made, or made without sufficient engineering skill?

General HAINS. No, sir; I think the surveys that have been made, particularly by Menocal, were made with a considerable degree of accuracy so far as I can judge, and we have had pretty good oppor tunity of testing them.

Senator HARRIS. That, of course, means so far as they went?
General HAINS. Exactly; so far as they went.

Senator HARRIS. They did not cover the entire question?

General HAINS. Oh, no.

Senator HARRIS. As, for example, the difference which you find in the area of the lake shows?

General HAINS. They did not cover all those questions.
Senator HARRIS. And in the matter of borings?

Senator MORGAN. Menocal did not make any survey of the area of the lake.

Senator HARRIS. I say the surveys which have been made do not cover or exhaust the whole question.

Senator MORGAN. He did not pretend that they had.

Senator HARRIS. At least he gave maps showing the relative shore line of the lake and all that kind of thing, which you ascertain to be somewhat different. I understand that in the eastern entrance of the lake there is quite a difference in the proper location of the shore line. Senator MORGAN. Still Menocal only accepted the surveys made. Senator HARRIS. He accepted the existing surveys. I am not criticising; I only mean to say that he did not go as far as it is necessary to go.

Senator MORGAN. I am speaking of the work he did.

General HAINS. His surveys related chiefly to that part of the canal between Ochoa and Greytown, the high-level route, and his surveys as

far as they went were very good. So far as topography was concerned they were very complete.

Senator MORGAN. His borings, though, were not sufficient, you think? General HAINS. Well, they were not sufficient to determine just exactly what was the character of the material to be excavated all the way; but still they were sufficient to determine it within a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Senator SEWELL. Have not the present commission, of which General Hains is a distinguished member, absolute control of the whole situation now, and can they not go on and make a perfect survey which can not be criticised? They have the data of all the previous surveys. Senator MORGAN. That is exactly what they are doing.

Senator SEWELL. They have a large party and an unlimited amount of money. If they have not enough, they will get more. Is not the question whether they shall make a complete survey a settled question in our minds?

Senator MORGAN. It is in our minds, but I am really trying to meet objections that have heretofore been made and that I suppose will be renewed.

Senator SEWELL. It would look to me as though we could do it better after their report was made.

Senator MORGAN. But in a matter of this kind, where you have so important a work as this, every objection that can be made to it in the world is worthy of consideration.

Senator HARRIS. As I understand your position, General Sewell, it is practically that when these surveys are completed and the reports are in they will then be the authority and take the place of everything else?

Senator SEWELL. Exactly.

Senator MORGAN. There is no doubt of that.

Senator SEWELL. Then we can criticise it.

Senator HARRIS. Four difficulties have been in my mind in regard to the plan which has been most generally talked about, the one known as the Menocal plan. The difficulties which it seemed to me involved the great element of risk, and therefore needed more or less rectification or entire elimination, were the La Flor Dam, the San Francisco Basin, and the Ochoa Dam. Now, just in general terms, state to what extent you think

General HAINS. You have mentioned only three.

Senator HARRIS. Then I was going to speak of the very marked discrepancy that seems to exist in the reports with regard to the variation of the level of the lake itself. If there is a possibility of a variation of 15 feet in the level of that lake, that in itself will modify almost everything else to a very great degree. I wanted to know your opinion on those four points so far as you felt like giving it in a general way.

General HAINS. I will say, first, in respect to the La Flor Dam, that is a very serious engineering undertaking, and, as there is no necessity for it except merely to create a large basin of water close to the Pacific Ocean, I would not adopt that as my method of getting into the Pacific Ocean. I would rather take a plain canal, on which we know there are no difficulties.

Senator HARRIS. Of course, my experience in work of this kind makes me feel that big dams are very dangerous things.

General HAINS. They are.

Senator HARRIS. I do not care how they are constructed, there is an immense element of risk and uncertainty attending them.

General HAINS. Yes, sir. For that reason I do not like the La Flor Damn.

Senator HARRIS. The only point which has been suggested recently with regard to its value has been its acting as a regulator and control of the flood water that might be liable to come down. Do you think there would be any practical advantage in that direction? That is really about the only point which has been suggested, it seems to me, where it would be of any value.

General HAINS. I do not think the flood waters of the Rio Grande would be a serious impediment to the construction of the low-level canal, but even if it did prove so there is no trouble, and the cost is not very great, to divert it.

Senator HARRIS. To take care of it in other directions?

General HAINS. Yes, sir. Mr. Menocal himself had a project for its diversion. I think his estimate was something like a million and a half dollars for it, but if there is any trouble on the Rio Grande that will take care of it.

Senator HARRIS. That seems to settle that point entirely.

Senator SEWELL. What is the length of the San Juan available for the canal?

General HAINS. Do you mean the total length of the river?
Senator SEWELL. No; the portion available for the canal.
General HAINS. I think it is about 80 miles.

Senator SEWELL. And its depth? Is it an ordinary stream, or has it much depth of water?

General HAINS. A part of it is quite deep and a part of it is not. Some of it has sharp bends.

Senator SEWELL. But it is all susceptible of being treated at ordinary cost, I take it.

General HAINS. Yes, sir; there is no trouble about making it deep enough for any class of vessels. There are various ways of doing it, but there are no great difficulties about it.

Senator SEWELL. There would be no great danger of overflow from the river itself?

General HAINS. No, sir.

Senator SEWELL. Where you would cut off a bend or anything of that kind, if you should do that?

General HAINS. No, sir; it is merely a question of cost.

Senator HARRIS. Then, General, to what extent do you think the danger and risk of the great line of embankment in the San Francisco basin can be eliminated or reduced?

General HAINS. I regard the San Francisco embankment line as the most dangerous matter in connection with the whole project. In order to overcome that danger, even though it should cost more, I would prefer to construct a lock and dam at Machuca Rapids, and lock down, say, from 20 to 30 feet, so as to reduce the height of those embankments. Senator HARRIS. That would also reduce the height of the dam at Ochoa?

General HAINS. At Ochoa. A reduction of from 25 to 30 feet of those dams brings them down to within the limit of precedents.

Senator HARRIS. That would reduce the average height of the San Francisco basin embankment 50 per cent and of the Ochoa dam about 30 per cent, would it not?

General HAINS. Yes, sir; something like that.

Senator HARRIS. As I have the figures in my mind generally, it would seem to be somewhere about that.