that might be the longest one. In order to save distance we might be willing to pay more money.

Senator HARRIS. On all these different lines the work which has been done by the old company would be utilized on any of them?

Admiral WALKER. They have done no work that would be of any particular use except the work of surveying and exploring which they have done.

Senator HARRIS. Merely a reconnoissance?

Admiral WALKER. They have done a good deal of work in exploring, and their surveys, so far as we have found, are very good.

Senator HARRIS. Would that work along the canal at Greytown be of value?

Admiral WALKER. It might, or might not.

Senator HARRIS. They speak of having cleared some 10 or 12 miles on the right of way.

Admiral WALKER. Something. Still the question of that work would be a very small one in a great work of this kind.

Senator PLATT. Is this commission prepared to give an estimate of cost?

Admiral WALKER. Not at present.

Senator MORGAN. In what condition did you find the buildings and railways there?

Admiral WALKER. They have been neglected a good deal, and they are gradually going to pieces. They had a railroad running out 10 or 11 miles. We cut down the growth of grass and cane, and we used it. They had two or three flat cars and one or two hand cars. We used them sending people and supplies out as far as we could, and from there by canoe or men's backs to our parties.

Senator MORGAN. What is the state of preservation?

Admiral WALKER. Everything has stood well. The section of canal dredged out is practically in the same shape as when they quit work.

Senator MORGAN. That means the earth out of which the excavation is taken and the embankments made is good material?

Admiral WALKER. It is sand and stands perfectly well; the banks stand in that country well.

Senator HARRIS. The most important fact would be to show that the heavy rainfall is nothing serious?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. I went over some lines of railroad in that country where the banks were very steep, and the rains do not seem to affect them at all.

Senator HARRIS. The ordinary slope of 14 to 1 that we use here? Admiral WALKER. Some are very steep, almost perpendicular. There is no frost, and the banks stand well.

Senator MORGAN. So far as the soil is concerned, you found no difficulty in your estimation or calculation that a canal could be established there?

Admiral WALKER. Undoubtedly there is no reason why a canal should not be built.

Senator HARRIS. If you adopt the survey of the company, that would lead across the rock divide?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir.

Senator HARRIS. Did you examine the divide?

Admiral WALKER. We shall before we get through. The commission went over that line on foot.

Senator HARRIS. What do the reports indicate as to the character of that rock? Is it a loose body of ashes and stone?

Admiral WALKER. No; plenty of solid rock, though we have not had that examined so as to speak with certainty.

Senator HARRIS. You think it a kind of rock available for heavy masonry?

Admiral WALKER. I should think it would be. The locks would probably be built of concrete and not masonry. It would be cheaper. Senator MORGAN. Is the boring at Ochoa the same as the Menocal survey?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. We put in a number of holes on either bank to develop the abutments, so to speak, of the dam, and then we bored the central line of the dam right across the river.

Senator HARRIS. What did you develop as to the character of the dams, even on your plans?

Admiral WALKER. We did not discuss that.

Senator HARRIS. It seems to me that this question of rubble with simple clay backing is not a very satisfactory method.

Admiral WALKER. Of course a dam of loose rock would have to be enormous in size; it would be like moving a hill into the river.

Senator MORGAN. The rock would be taken from this divide? Admiral WALKER. They claim there is the greatest abundance of it, and you might as well make a mountain in the river as anywhere else.

Senator MORGAN. Is it not important that you should have the rock there instead of importing it?

Admiral WALKER. We must have a lot of rock under any circumstances.

Senator MORGAN. Do you not consider the presence of that rock as of great advantage?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. If we follow a low-line route, the question of finding rock is an important consideration.

Senator MORGAN. I make that suggestion, because it has always been said to me, and has met my entire approval, so far as that is worth anything, that the presence of that mountain of stone is of great value. You have to make breakwaters, and you are obliged to have a great deal of stone in whatever structures you make, and if a dam is made even half the size proposed in the Menocal survey you still want stone, either cut stone, rubble, or whatever you think the best formation or construction.

Senator HARRIS. I believe Menocal made a change, stating it would be better to have a concrete core instead of stone.

Senator MORGAN. In the surveys made, did you find that Menocal's surveys had been carefully made?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir; his surveys, so far as we have gone over them, are good. Our surveys over the same lines plot out with his almost exactly. In making borings, they had to go into their own pockets for doing the work, and they did not carry them deep enough in places. The expense in our case came from the appropriation from the Government, and we carried them down to rock, no matter where we had to go. We settled the question of a possible dam at Ochoa, and we settled the question by going deep enough. It is simply a question of expense. In the same way, in the basin of the San Francisco, we bored right across the basin, so that we know what is there.

Senator HARRIS. Did you find it a continuous solid formation? Admiral WALKER. The same thing, only deeper than at Ochoa-goes down about 50 feet-the same thing; part of the old drainage of the country.

Senator MORGAN. Did you get strong rock?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir; firm rock, when you get to it.
Senator HARRIS. What is the rock-limestone?
Admiral WALKER. No.
Senator HARRIS. Volcanic?
Admiral WALKER. I think not.
get the name the geologist gave it.
thing about it it looks like granite.
Senator MORGAN. Hornblende?

It is a firm, solid, gray rock. I for

To a man who does not know any.

Admiral WALKER. No, sir; the geologist gave it some geologic name, I don't know what, but it is as firm rock as you could want. We should like it about 40 feet higher up.

Senator HARRIS. That is below the river?

Admiral WALKER. It is below the sea level about 40 feet.

Senator HARRIS. That is about 80 feet there?

Admiral WALKER. I can not tell you how much, below the bottom of the river.

Senator HARRIS. There [indicating] is the sea level there, and there is the bottom of the canal-I suppose it is about 80 feet?

Admiral WALKER. I suppose it may be 60 or 70 feet below the surface of the water.

Senator HARRIS. You think the foundation would have to go down to that?

Admiral WALKER. That is a question of engineering. Many engineers claim it is quite possible to dump stone in and let it settle itself. Senator SEWELL. I doubt if you could do it for waterworks. Senator HARRIS. I was thinking about the foundation of locks. Admiral WALKER. They would be put in on these ridges where there is probably rock. The foundations for locks have not yet been bored. Senator MORGAN. I understand that Menocal's theory, based upon some structure in India built on quicksands, is that if you put in one of these rubble dams, each rock seeks its own level and keeps sinking, and it is packed down until, even on a quicksand, it reaches an equilibrium where the pressure from above is equal to that from below and makes a solid foundation. That all disappears, as I understand it, as the admiral's party has penetrated to the rock, and it is only a question of cost.

Admiral WALKER. The sand can be all taken out, aud the question is only of cost.

Senator SEWELL. Have you made any estimate in your own mind as to the probable cost of this canal?

Admiral WALKER. We have made no figures. It is no use to figure on the thing until we have all our data. But I do not see why that canal can not be built-I should think myself, speaking as anybody in the street might speak, that the canal could be put through for one hundred and twenty-five millions, and it would not surprise me if it came considerably below that.

Senator SEWELL. If we want to construct this canal we want to construct it on the very best possible plans.

Admiral WALKER. After we get our plans and make our report we shall be perfectly satisfied if we get within several millions of the cost.

Senator SEWELL. As I understand, you are perfectly satisfied that the canal can be constructed, with the harbors at Greytown, and on the other side?

Admiral WALKER. I think so.

Senator SEWELL. The serious part of the matter is the dams?

Admiral WALKER. Yes; the serious part of the work is east of the lake.

Senator SEWELL. And taking care of the water?

Admiral WALKER. Yes; that embraces the whole thing.

Senator MORGAN. In the final report, giving the different routes you ascertain to be practicable and putting several before Congress as routes they can select from, will you make your estimates so that they would be such as a private company of construction would feel willing to adopt and act upon in the building of a canal, spending their own money?

Admiral WALKER. That is what we intend to do. My impression of the shape the report will take is that we shall have, say, three routes, and point out the advantages and disadvantages of each route and its probable cost.

Senator SEWELL. If Congress should conclude to legislate upon this subject at all, if they were to adopt as their basis of calculation for expenditure from the public Treasury one hundred and twenty-five millions as the maximum cost of this canal, do you think we would be upon safe ground in making this legislation?

Admiral WALKER. I think so.

Senator PLATT, of New-York. How much did the old company expend?

Admiral WALKER. I do not know.

Senator HARRIS. They claim to have expended five millions. That covers the cost of concession and work, etc.

Admiral WALKER. The work of examination, exploration, and surveying is very difficult and tedious because of the physical difficulties. The east side, in Nicaragua, is a jungle very difficult to get through and very difficult to work in. If you are in the lowlands you are anywhere from your ankles to your neck in the water; everywhere this tangle of stuff must be cut through in order to use your instruments.

Senator MORGAN. In projecting this legislation this committee has heretofore taken the calculation of the sum that Congress would be expected to provide from the estimate, varying from seventy-three millions, which is the Menocal first estimate, up to one hundred and fifty millions.

Admiral WALKER. I think Menocal's last estimate was eighty-five millions.

Senator MORGAN. Raised to eighty-five millions by the five engineers who sat upon it and added incidentals to it. One hundred and fifty millions was taken from the statement more particularly of Colonel Ludlow, who said it might reach that point. Take one hundred and fifty and seventy-three and divide the result, and it is about one hundred and fifteen millions. We thought that about a just mean, and particularly as it agreed with that by Colqohoun, who is a very great engineer and was sent out really by the British Government, although he does not say he was acting officially, to examine and report on different routes by sea and by land; so that if we should again report a bill for one hundred and fifteen millions you think we would not be more than five millions out of the way of the probable maximum cost?

Admiral WALKER. My own impression is that it is safe to say one hundred and twenty-five millions. Of course we can not tell definitely. Senator HARRIS. In dealing with large bodies of water like that it is impossible to estimate the cost of accidents?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. The Menocal report put 25 per cent on as an estimate for contingencies, and the New York board put on 25 per cent more?

Admiral WALKER. The difficult engineering questions are the dams. That is the reason we have thought of the dam at Machuca, which would drop us down 25 or 30 feet and reduce the height of the dam at Ochoa.

Senator HARRIS. You spoke of a very friendly feeling on the part of Costa Rica and Nicaragua. Did you observe or hear anything that would indicate a preference as to this work being done directly by the United States or under the concessions to this company ?

Admiral WALKER. I spoke especially of Nicaragua. The gentlemen in Nicaragua in speaking to me about it were very desirous of having the canal built, and they preferred dealing directly with this Government. They were tired of the company. Their idea was that if the Government took it it would be pushed along by a big power behind it. The feeling for the canal is very strong. The President, Zelaya, and his strong men are very anxious for the canal, and the more they can deal with the Government the better they like it. The Costa Ricans are not as much in favor of the canal as the Nicaraguans. Senator HARRIS. It is of less importance to them?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir; and among the Costa Ricans I think there is some feeling that if the canal goes through it would tend to build up Nicaragua at the expense of Costa Rica.

Senator HARRIS. Did you hear anything said of the possibility or desire of reviving the old Zevala treaty, putting the question directly in the hands of the Government?

Admiral WALKER. No, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Did you hear any objection to the concession-that they had made a bad bargain and wanted to get rid of it?

Admiral WALKER. No; there seemed to be only a certain amount of irritation at the company because the company had failed to go ahead.

Senator HARRIS. The preference was for dealing directly with this Government?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. I want to say that, in speaking of the 'cost of a canal and all these questions, I must not be considered as talking by authority or from figures. I am only giving impressions from what I have seen there and from the reports I have had up to this time.

Senator MORGAN. You have also the advantage of a thorough examination of all the surveys made there and the work of the Ludlow commission?

Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. It is scarcely worth while, I suppose, to present any of the conditions that make it necessary to close the gap between the coast lines of the United States after the voyage of the Oregon and the Marietta, but I wish to ask your opinion, as an officer of the Navy and a man of large experience, as to the value of this maritime canal to the United States in what we might call a military or strategic naval

sense.