Admiral WALKER. It would be of immense value, because it would enable us to pass our fighting ships from one side of the country to the other promptly. It might be of immense value. Senator MORGAN. What would be the value to the condition of ships of war and commerce in passing through this body of fresh water from ocean to ocean? Admiral WALKER. With modern steel ships it would tend to kill the growth on their bottoms, if they were in the canal or lake any length of time. The tendency, so far as any, would be to clean them. Senator PLATT, of New York. What is the total length of the canal? Admiral WALKER. About 180 miles, roughly. Senator MORGAN. Of that distance, the dredging is estimated by Menocal as about 29 miles, of which you say 3 or 4 miles can be dispensed with by the deeper channel you have discovered? Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. Senator PLATT, of New York. What is the expense of getting over the divide, the expensive part of it? Admiral WALKER. It is about 3 miles across. I could not give an estimate on the cost. Senator MORGAN. I understand you to say that some of the plans may avoid that cut? Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir; if we should drop down, and take a low level line, we should avoid that. Senator HARRIS. That is a thing very desirable, I should think. Admiral WALKER. We have three or four parties examining with a view to that. Senator PLATT, of New York. How much would it increase the distance? Admiral WALKER. A number of miles-several miles, and then the question comes, if we should decrease the expense, whether the increased distance would not be a greater disadvantage. Senator MORGAN. How about the inundations? The Admiral WALKER. I think that can be handled well enough. I do not think there is any difficulty about that. In the lower river, while a great deal of water comes down, you do not have the enormous freshets you would think. The water is taken up by the swamps. freshets come from above and spread out. I do not think there is anything to prevent an alluvial canal. It is only a question of practicability and cost. You do not want to lengthen the channel by 5 or 6 miles unless you get some advantage. Senator MORGAN. By one of the surveys, is there not a probability of getting a shorter route than behind the ridges by that Menocal survey? Admiral WALKER. I think if we go across the divide the route of Menocal would be the one to follow, unless we came down-not building a dam at Ochoa at all-somewhere, say, to Tambor Grande, and build a dam there, avoiding the San Francisco, having the same cut across the divide--probably a little heavier--but avoiding the San Francisco embankments. Senator HARRIS. That being lower than Ochoa, would have to be a little higher? Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. There are some disadvantages. We have had some parties out to find how far we would have to run embankments, and it is quite possible they may be as bad as the San Francisco embankments. Senator HARRIS. Your impression is that moving the dam upAdmiral WALKER. I think the chances. are, by putting in a dam at Machuca and a dam below, at Ochoa or Tambor Grande, and taking a low level route, we may escape this heavy work and get into Greytown with considerable less expenditure of money, and with a canal that would not perhaps keep its superintendent awake nights so much. Senator MORGAN. Take the distance between Ochoa Dam and the exit of San Juan River from the lake, and I ask you if there is any real engineering difficulty in using the river channel as part of the canal? Admiral WALKER. With the Ochoa Dam built? Senator MORGAN. Whatever plan you may adopt for handling the water in the outlet. Admiral WALKER. We should have to use the river channel. It would be the only practicable way, by means of one or more dams and by dredging at some places and in that way making a channel. Senator MORGAN. You have not thought of discarding the river as a part of the canal? Admiral WALKER. That would be impracticable. Senator MORGAN. You feel you are obliged to use the San Juan River? Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. The question is, the simplest and best way of making the San Juan available as a part of the canal? Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. Have you visited the canal at Panama? Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. Are they actually doing anything in the way of work there? Admiral WALKER. The new company say they have 3,500 men at work there. I should think they had somewhere from 2,500 to 3,000, and doing good work. They have no new plans, but are concentrating their work on the heavy cuts, doing the work well, and, so far as we could judge, at a reasonable cost. There is nothing we saw there that forbids the building of the canal-a lock canal. Their great problem is the control of the Chagres River. They stated that they had found a place where they could put in a dam and a place for the waste water by throwing it into the Pacific, but it was all indefinite. Senator MORGAN. I understand the problem of the lock canal, the essential feature, is the ability to create a reservoir upon the highland, the upper reaches of the Chagres River, which will supply water to the canal. Admiral WALKER. To supply water in a sufficient amount to the upper level, and to control the waste water. Senator MORGAN. And as between the two projects, the competition would be between the lake as already formed and an artificial lake at Panama for the supply of water? Admiral WALKER. Yes. If I had thought of it I would have brought you some photographs of what I saw on the Panama Canal. They are rather interesting to show the work as it is at present. Senator MORGAN. I suppose the work doing on the Panama Canal is largely from money derived from the railroad tolls? Admiral WALKER. Yes; and I understand they squeezed some money out of certain people in France. Their idea is that they will get money through their lottery with which to go on with the work. Senator MORGAN. A lottery authorized by the French Government? Admiral WALKER. Yes, sir. It seems to me the difficulty they will encounter is of taking care of the present stock. They have an enormous amount of stock. Senator MORGAN. Is there anything else you would like to state? Admiral WALKER. No, sir; not that I think of. So far as our examination has gone, what we have found new has been in the direction of economy. The committee adjourned. THURSDAY, June 16, 1898. The committee met at half past 10 o'clock a. m. STATEMENT OF PROF. LEWIS M. HAUPT. The CHAIRMAN (Senator Morgan). You are a member of the canal commission that is now operating in Nicaragua? Professor HAUPT. Yes, sir; I am. Senator MORGAN. How much time have you spent in a personal examination of that canal route? Professor HAUPT. Since my appointment I have spent the larger portion of the time from the close of last July up to date in not only the physical examination of the canal but in reading the reports and posting myself on the literature of the question, and in looking over estimates and quantities and in collecting material with reference to unit prices. In addition to that, with reference to its bearings upon the canal, I had previously compiled statistics of ship canals over the world and made an abstract for my report on the ship canal across New Jersey, published by the city of Philadelphia, and made under its auspices. Senator MORGAN. Do you wish to make some statements about the measurements of the original survey or any other survey? Professor HAUPT. Not specially, Senator. I only wanted to see by an examination of this report if I could find here the total cube of material to be moved under the different estimates. But I do not find any aggregate stated in this report. They give the quantities for the specific items only. Senator MORGAN. What report are you now referring to? Professor HAUPT. I am referring to the report of the commission of 1895. Senator MORGAN. Known as the Ludlow commission? Senator MORGAN. Do you know what the cube of excavation is in the Menocal report? Professor HAUPT. I do not, sir. That is what I was looking for. Professor HAUPT. This is the Menocal report of 1885 [examining]. In this report of 1885 by Mr. Menocal, which I have before me, he also specifies the cube of the various subdivisions of the work, but does not seem to state in his tabular form any aggregate. His total estimate here is $64,000,000. Senator MORGAN. Round? Professor HAUPT. In round numbers. I will take pleasure in look ing up the estimate subsequently and submitting it to you, if agreeable. I only propose to utilize it in this way, that from the results of my examinations upon canals I find that a fair average value, using it as a check upon these estimates, would be about $1 per cubic yard, taking all things into consideration. Senator MORGAN. You mean earth and rock? Senator MORGAN. Together? Professor HAUPT. Yes, sir; everything. As I recollect it, the Suez Canal prism was verly nearly 100,000,000 cubic yards and the cost was $100,000,000. The Keil Canal was considerably less. I do not remember now the prism of excavation. The cost was in the neighborhood of $40,000,000. That was built inside of the estimated cost, but the Suez Canal cost about twice as much as it should have cost, or would have cost with improved machinery and proper financial arrangement. Senator MORGAN. About what is the length of the Keil Canal? Professor HAUPT. The Keil Canal is in the neighborhood of 60 miles, if I recollect. Senator MORGAN. What is the width at the bottom? Professor HAUPT. I am not able to give you that from memory, but it is shown in my report on the New Jersey Ship Canal. Senator HARRIS. Professor, excuse me if I interrupt you there. You say that according to your idea, getting the total prism of cubic yards and estimating it at a dollar a yard would approximate to some extent the probable cost? Professor HAUPT. Yes, sir. Senator HARRIS. Of course architects have a sort of way generally of estimating the cost of a house by the cubic feet, and so on; but when you take, for example, the Suez Canal, which is at one extreme, and the Nicaragua Canal, which is pretty nearly at another extreme, the variation is almost infinite. Professor HAUPT. Yes, sir; that is true. It must be taken, of course, with a grain of salt, or with due consideration to the character of the structure. Senator HARRIS. With a great deal of salt. Professor HAUPT. Exactly. As in the case you have cited with reference to architecture, the prices will vary from 8 cents up, according to the style and finish and detail of the building, etc. Senator HARRIS. Everything goes into the calculation. Professor HAUPT. Yes, sir; and in the case of a canal with numerous locks, dams, weirs, and other auxiliary structures, it would increase the cost very much. In the case of Nicaragua, however, there is some compensating advantage in the fact that a large percentage of the work would be the divide matter, and it could be handled by machinery, the larger volumes to be moved back in bulk with short hauls, averaging short distances; and the total length of the canal is comparatively small, as compared with the total route. That is, it is only 28 miles as compared with approximately 170 miles. The river dredging would be merely lateral displacement, with comparatively little rock, according to our recent researches, and the Deseado work would be comparatively light work, lateral movements. So it would be with the total work along the lower flat and the 12 miles or the 11 miles, properly speaking, from Greytown to Lock No. 1, while the divide cut would be mass work, with, I believe, a much shorter haul than that anticipated by the last reports, judging from our recent investigations. I understand, Mr. Chairman, that the president of the commission S. Rep. 1265 -7* was before you yesterday, and he probably described all the physical features so far as we are familiar with them from our investigations. Therefore it is unnecessary for me to cover any of that ground. Senator MORGAN. I do not know. I rather think it is necessary for you to do so, because we want to get all the information we can. Senator HARRIS. Yes; I would be very glad if Professor Haupt would begin with a description of the harbor at Brito and, following the course which Admiral Walker took, give his ideas of the changes, the betterments contemplated as to route and construction along the line, so that we may have the two statements running along in the same way. Professor HAUPT. That is, continuously or fragmentary, whichever it may happen to be? Senator HARRIS. Either one or the other. Of course Admiral Walker did not go into details to any great extent. His statement was very interesting and in every way satisfactory. You perhaps could give us a little more detailed information in reference to some of these points. Professor HAUPT. Following out that suggestion, Senator, it will give me pleasure to submit to the committee my views with reference to the physical features of the canal and their adaptability to the purposes of construction for a ship canal. Senator HARRIS. In order that we may understand it a little better, perhaps, I suggest that I at least would like to have you indicate what your ideas, as far as you can now judge, are of the improvements in location or in construction over the plan which has been so much talked of. Senator MORGAN. Yes; any changes that you think ought to be made or that likely would result from your more complete examination. Professor HAUPT. It is of course well known to the committee that in this great physical work, as in all others, there are a variety of solutions possible. There are three distinct problems before our commission; that is to say, with reference to the adaptability of the route to a high-level line, or to the low-level line as suggested by Colonel Childs in 1852, or to what might be called a compromise between those two, a part high level and a part low level. The canal company's proposition recommended the high-level route, whereby they propose to extend the summit level to and beyond the Ochoa dam or out to Lock No. 3, and then to drop from summit level to tide water on either side by three lift locks, one of them having a lift of about 45 feet. That plan has been criticised to some extent because of the alleged difficulty of building a high level dam at Ochoa, as well as at La Flor, and of locking down from those points, and because of the difficulties of establishing what might be considered a perfectly safe embankment line along the San Francisco, the Chanchos, and the Florida lagoons, which are the weak points of the embankment system on the east side. On the west side it is admitted generally that there are no special difficulties; that is, if the high-level line is impracticable, as the last board seems to regard it. Senator MORGAN. The Ludlow board? Professor HAUPT. The Ludlow board of 1895. Then the low-level line is entirely feasible. Those are the three distinct propositions which we propose to investigate, and upon which we will make comparative estimates to determine the relative cost. Perhaps I may interject just here that the cost to me is an immaterial factor in this whole question, since the economies of the canal are so superior as to almost obliterate the cost, whatever it may be found to be. But that is not within the jurisdiction of our commission. I understand from your query, Senator |