« PreviousContinue »
Senator CAIN. I think the answer to that is, if I may speak most frankly and very honestly on the subject, that we studied this problem from the questions and answers that were submitted by all Senators, and it happens that this report, from my point of view anyway, does not subscribe to some of the views and opinions expressed by the Senator from Connecticut, and we saw no point in laboring the question.
Senator MCMAHON. Not even to the point of letting me find out how much of this document, which I assume is quite lengthy-how many pages does it contain?
Senator CAIN. It includes appendixes and so on. The pages devoted to the report itself are about 40, I think. I can be more accurate.
Senator MCMAHON. Well, it might be a page or two there in which I might find myself in agreement, and that would have been a net gain for the Senator.
Senator CAIN. Fifty-two pages, and I do know that the Senator from Connecticut will find it very easy and convenient in the next hour or so to begin to peruse the report if he sees fit.
Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, might I add my little bit in this discussion? I hope personally there will be no formal report filed by the committee. I say that because that will mean that there will be majority views and minority views, and they will be divergent views, and it would seem to me that that would be confusing, and lead to no good result.
We unanimously agreed to that very fine statement that the chairman drew up.
I do believe that any individual member, if he wants to do it, either as a group or as an individual, should be entitled to state his views and that, I believe, it would be of value to have the views being filed in one volume.
I believe that mostly everybody in this country who has had any interest in this subject has pretty well made up his mind.
I think it would be very unfortunate to have a majority and minority report.
Chairman RUSSELL. Do you think, Senator, it could be confined to two?
Senator SALTONSTALL. I think it might be confined to two, with a whole lot of individual comments.
Mr. Chairman, just to present the thing so that it may be thrashed around, I move that the joint committee file no formal report as the report of the committee; that no views be stated as the majority or minority, views, but that members be permitted before September 1 to file their views and conclusions with the chairman; that said views be gathered in one volume, and request be made of the Senate to publish them.
Senator BYRD. Would the Senator add to that that they transmit papers and records of the hearings to the Senate for their information? Senator SALTONSTALL. I Would be glad to add that.
Chairman RUSSELL. That would be in accord with Senator Gillette's statement.
Senator GILLETTE. Mr. Chairman, may I add in this connection that thi excellent statement that the chairman prepared, and the joint unanimously agreed to, is a report not as an agent to the
Congress, but to the American people, and the first statement that was made in connection with it, the chairman's statement, on the floor of the Senate was:
Mr. RUSSELL, Mr. President, at a meeting of the Committees on Armed Services and Foreign Relations on yesterday, the committees unanimously approved the issuance of a statement to the American people. This statement is not to be interpreted as a report of the committee on any aspect of the issues of the MacArthur hearings.
Chairman RUSSELL. That is right.
Senator GILLETTE. It was expressly designated that it was not a report from the committee.
We are an agent, and we should, in my opinion, make a report. And, as I stated before, it is obvious that we could not agree on a report, and I agree with Senator Saltonstall that it would serve no purpose in having a majority and minority report, but that we should make a formal report saying that we held the meetings over this protracted period of time, and these hearings represent the facts that we developed, and then we discharge our duty.
Chairman RUSSELL. That is, as I understand it, Senator Gillette, embraced within this motion, if Senator Saltonstall accepts the suggestion of Senator Byrd, that no formal report on the issues be filed, but that this statement and all of the record of our hearings be transmitted to the Senate.
Senator GILLETTE. To the Senate.
Chairman RUSSELL. That is right.
Senator GILLETTE. I would be in accord with that.
Chairman RUSSELL. And the record of the hearings certainly discloses how many days we have met, how many witnesses appeared. All of that speaks for itself, and if we transmit the papers, which would include this statement that we issued, and all of the formal testimony, and all the documentary evidence submitted during the course of the hearings to the Senate, that is in the nature of action by the committee in reporting to the parent body.
Senator GILLETTE. That would meet with my approval, Mr. Chair
Senator HICKENLOOPER. Senator Saltonstall's motion is sort of a double-barrel one in reverse, an opposing reciprocal engine type of motion.
Senator SALTONSTALL. Will the Senator yield? I thank the Senator for that description of it.
Senator HICKENLOOPER. I say that in all kindness, and in all courtesy, without trying to aim to be caustic, but from my viewpoint, he has two hostile propositions in his motion.
In the first place, I think the committee should make a report, so that if I should vote "No" on his motion, I would be voting for the committee to make a report.
The second proposition of his motion is that individual members should be permitted to file their own views. I am in favor of that proposition, but if I vote "No" on his motion, it might be interpreted that I was opposed to individual members voting to express their own views.
Now, I would prefer to vote on the Senator's proposition in two questions: No. 1, should the committee make a report, upon, which I should vote "Yes," and I mean I would vote in favor of the committee's making a report.
No. 2: Should individual members, either as individuals or collectively, be authorized to give their own individual views in this matter, and I should vote "Yes" on that.
It would make little difference to me whether it was called a minority report or not; that would be a minor thing, a matter of terminology. Therefore, it is difficult for me to vote on the Senator's motion because I am against one proposition-that is, his statement that the committee should make no report and I am for his other proposition in his motion that individuals should be permitted to file their views. Chairman RUSSELL. I find myself impaled on one horn of that dilemma almost every day in the Senate, where I am against certain propositions that are in the bill, but I have to decide whether what I want to favor in the bill outweighs that to which I am opposed.
I do not think there is any bill that I have ever voted on that I approved in toto in every line and every paragraph.
Senator HICKENLOOPER. I wonder if the Senator would separate his motion?
Senator SALTONSTALL. I would be very glad to.
Chairman RUSSELL. The Senator from Iowa has been around here a long time, and he is familiar with the situations that exist.
Senator SALTONSTALL. I appreciate the opening comments of the Senator, because he used some statements that I did not think I was capable of forming such ideas, and I would be glad to separate it or throw the motion up for discussion and amendment, and discarding it, if you wanted to do so, but I did it because I think it was my idea how we should proceed.
Senator HICKENLOOPER. It occurs to me that there are two clear-cut propositions here on which members may divide-I mean members may divide equally on each of these two propositions.
One is, Shall the committee make a report-that is one. I have a position on that.
No. 2 is, Should individual members be authorized to give their individual views, and I have a position on that.
If the Senator can separate his motion, I think we could meet each proposition according to each member's individual opinion.
Senator BRIDGES. Would it not be brought to a head, Mr. Chairman, if I should move to substitute for the Saltonstall motion a simple motion that the committee do make a report? We can vote on that, and then
Senator BYRD. In essence, though, what we are doing or propose to do is to make a report.
Senator MCMAHON. Pardon me, Senator?
Senator BYRD. In transmitting all this information to the Senate, that is in the nature of a report. It may not be a complete report or a detailed report, but it is a report.
Senator WILEY. Mr. Chairman, may I have just a word?
Chairman RUSSELL. Yes, sir.
Senator WILEY. It is rather dating back to what was said here previously-it was my understanding that the majority of the committee, when we got through with the hearings, felt that there was to be no formal report.
However, some of us felt that there should be a report, and before we went to Europe, one or two meetings were held in relation to formulating the matter and studying the record.
We understood those who were not called in were not in favor of making a report.
Now, as individual Senators, we exercise our right, I believe, without any thought that we were doing anything behind the back of the committee. Personally, I feel, and I felt very seriously on this whole MacArthur matter, probably because MacArthur meant considerable to my State, and geography has something to do with one's convictions; and I felt that he got a rotten deal from start to finish. I am frank to put it in that vulgar language. put
felt that for the committee not to make a report-and yet that was the general consensus of what went out over the papers and every place else—was contrary to my own personal opinion, so I was very happy to talk things over with my associates, and that was how that came about.
Work was done when we were in Europe, and then we had to see what had been accomplished. This is not said in any sense of apology, but rather so that there can be no misunderstanding of the personal integrity and desire of we who feel that we are responsible to our people, to make a report.
I question whether with the difference of opinion that was expressed throughout the entire sessions here-and I so stated in the beginning rather jocularly-I do not think there would be agreement-I doubt whether you can get a committee report. You could probably get a division on it. So my own thought has been that there was a pretty firm conviction or decision that there was not going to be a report. Now, that is basic with me.
Second, some of us felt there should be a report by us if the committee was not going to make a report, and so we got under way. There might be a number of differences in our own report on minor matters, but it was the general consensus among us-and I am one who joined, and would be happy to have anyone else come in on this report.
I understand through some inadvertance it has reached the press, when it was not supposed to, and some comments have already started. Just one other point, Mr. Chairman: Because it was suggested by the Senator from Connecticut that there might be something in the report that would have serious implications in relation to the foreign situation, I would like to say that I do not think so. I think there were two big issues: One, whether there was justificationfactual justification, not legal justification-for the discharge or for the handling of MacArthur in the way he was handled; and the other was more or less a review of the far eastern policies, and I think that most of the facts there are not in dispute. But you can draw different conclusions therefrom and I suppose some of our conclusions would be, in the minds of some of our associates, in error, but we do not think so. If the committee wants to make a report, I think you should discuss what you mean by a report, whether you mean what Senator Byrd says or whether you mean an attempt to state the facts and draw conclusions which might, as Senator Russell says, take considerable time, and so forth.
If that had been our intention, we should have been working on that, as our little group has been working on our report.
Senator MCMAHON. It has been working as a group on the report?
Senator WILEY. Off and on.
Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Green. If you will excuse me, Senator, I wish first to state that at the last meeting we had of this committee, which was held on June 27, I brought to the attention of the committee the question of the making of a report.
Senator WILEY. A little louder, please.
Chairman RUSSELL. I brought to the attention of the committee the question of whether or not we should undertake to make a detailed report expressing conclusions on these issues, and just as I brought this up, there was a call over in the Senate, and the members of the committee decided, as the record will show, that they should go to the floor. They were having a vote.
Shortly thereafter, the majority of the members of the Foreign Relations Committee went to Europe and, of course, no action could be taken in their absence.
Subsequent to their return, almost immediately after their return, legislation was submitted on the European aid program, and joint hearings have been in progress since then, so I did not know that any action had been taken as to whether or not there would be a formal vote.
1 did conclude before the hearings were closed, as an individual, that no useful purpose would be served by attempting to go into conclusions on these issues, because it would take this committee weeks to discuss it, and then we would not be in agreement.
All right now, Senator Green.
Senator GREEN. Mr. Chariman, it seems obvious to me, at least, that what differences of opinion have been expressed are based on different constructions of what the word "report" means.
If a report means simply a statement of bare facts, such as we have held so many meetings, and we have had so many witnesses who have appeared, and we forward therewith copies of the hearings with the appendixes, that is one thing.
If it means that we have got to include deductions to be drawn from the evidence, conclusions as to policy and as to facts, that means an entirely different thing.
I personally believe that it would be very unfortunate at the present time in view of the world situation for us to have any more public disagreements than are absolutely necessary.
As the chairman has stated, it is a critical situation in the Far East, and it is not only deductions which could properly be drawn by differences of opinion being expressed, but it is differences which will be drawn improperly as well.
We know perfectly well that Soviet Russia will put every wrong construction it can on apparent differences on the part of the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees, and think that it exists as a whole.
They will say that we are divided in our opposition to their actions in the Far East, or elsewhere.
So, personally, it would seem to me to be unfortunate to have these differences appear, and if they must appear, then they should be made as unofficial as possible.
As it has been proposed in various quarters, personally it would he way to avoid this is to have just this factual report,