Mr. Alderman Atkins
Monck, sir C.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Wednesday, June 7.

LOCAL MILITIA BILL.] On the order of the day for the third reading of the Local Militia Bill,

which these scenes had been exhibited to
a very considerable extent. These things
were apt to disgust the officers, and it was
on this ground that he had doubts as to
the policy of calling out the local militia
for the purposes of this volunteering. He
recollected also, that doubts had then been
entertained whether Government had a
right under the Act to call out the local
militia for this species of volunteering;
the Act only giving power to call them
out for the purposes of exercise, or in case
of invasion. He again repeated, that it
was not his object to throw any obstruc-
tions in the way of the military exertions
now making.

Lord Rolle stated, that he himself
marched into a place which he named, at
the head of a thousand men, called out
for the purpose of this volunteering, and
that all the officers had encouraged the
volunteering to the utmost of their power.
The men at first thought there was some
trick in it, but afterwards they were satis-
fied, and volunteered cheerfully.

Viscount Sidmouth said, that nothing could be more fair and candid than the manner in which the noble lord had stated his objections to this Bill, or rather his doubts and observations upon it. He admitted that every thing ought to be avoided, if possible, which could give offence or disgust to the officers of this valuable species of force. Nothing could exceed the zeal and alacrity with which the gentlemen of the country had come forward in behalf of their country, and the exertions which all of them made to promote the views of Government in this particular. Their lordships had to consider first, whether the same occasion now existed for this measure as had existed when it was before resorted to; and if they thought that an equally pressing occasion did exist, they had then decided, in a great measure, on the principle of this Bill: that an equally pressing occasion did exist he was sure their lordships would feel, and therefore he need say

Lord St. John rose, to state some observations and doubts with respect to this Bill, at the same time declaring, that nothing could be further from his intentions than to throw any difficulty in the way of the measures of defence and vigorous prosecution of the war which Government might find it necessary to adopt at the The local militia had present crisis. been found, he believed, a most valuable and efficient domestic military; which was in no small degree owing to the zeal and alacrity with which gentlemen of counties came forward as officers to assist in bringing this species of force to the utmost perfection of which it was susceptible, for the purpose of defending their own property and that of others. Nothing could be more impolitic, therefore, than to do any thing that might disgust these officers. But last year a part of this force had been called out for the purpose of enabling the men to volunteer their services for forty-nothing further on that point. The reasons two days out of their counties, a bounty of one guinea being given to each man so volunteering. While this volunteering continued, the regiments were in a state of the greatest derangement, and scenes of riot and drunkenness were permitted, subversive of military discipline, and not He very creditable to the service itself. spoke from his own experience, having commanded a regiment of local militia, in

which induced Government to have recourse to a measure of this kind, for it was not exactly the same as this, at a former period was this:-In order to procure a large supply for the disposeable force of the country, it had been thought expe dient to allow a volunteering from the regular militia into the line to an amount The militia amounted to of about one-half of the whole number of the militia.

wished the same principle to be acted upon which had been adopted with respect to the puisne judges of Ireland. He had not intended to place the salaries of the Masters of the Rolls in England and Ireland on the same footing. The resolution which he had submitted to the House went to give the Master of the Rolls for Ireland an income of 4,3001. Irish currency. This, in British currency, was reduced to 4,000l. He had considered such an augmentation was but just, as a compensation for the Six-clerks Offices, which had formerly been at the disposal of the Master of the Rolls, but which had ceased to be so. The character of the present Master of the Rolls could furnish no objection to the grant, as in the discharge of his official duties, his conduct had given such general satisfaction, that only three appeals from his decisions had yet been received.

Sir S. Romilly raised no objection on the character of the individual holding the situation of Master of the Rolls for Ireland, but he did not consider the proposed addition to his income to be necessary as compensation for the disposal of the Six-clerks Offices being withdrawn from him. In lord Kenyon's time those offices were never sold. The sale of them, he believed, though established by usage, was not sanctioned by law.

Sir J. Stewart spoke in favour of the Report.

Mr. J. P. Grant thought he had the authority of Parliament itself for saying, that it had never intended the salaries of the Masters of the Rolls in England and Ireland to be placed on the same footing; as when the office of Master of the Rolls in Ireland was created, that difference was established between the emoluments of the two situations which existed at present. What the House had to consider was, whether the salary of the Irish Master of the Rolls was sufficient to support the dignity of his situation, and unless proved to be inadequate, no increase ought to be sanctioned. The repeated applications of this nature made to the House ought to be strictly investigated.

Mr. Shaw of Dublin spoke in favour of the resolution, and in flattering terms of the manner in which the present Master of the Rolls in Ireland performed the functions of his office.

Mr. Horner thought, if the Irish Master of the Rolls had been in the habit of receiving money for the Six-clerks Offices, he had been guilty of a gross breach of the law, and of a misdemeanor for which he might have been impeached. It might be sanctioned by the Act passed at the close of the last session, when very few members were present, and the subject could not be fully examined; but with the exception of the provisions of that Act, such conduct had no justification

Mr. Peel said, that in the last session an Act was passed, intituled "An Act for the further prevention of the sale or brokerage of offices," in which the offices of Six-in law. clerks were recognized as being saleable. Sir Frederick Flood, although in general disposed to disapprove of measures which went to charge Ireland with additional incumbrances, yet from the nature of the present proposition, and a conviction of its justice, he should give it his support.

Mr. Serjeant Onslow felt it painful to object to a grant proposed for the remuneration of a person holding a judicial situation, but he could not refrain from saying that the reasons given for the large increase of income now called for, were not such as ought to be satisfactory to the House.

Sir J. Newport did not think it necessary for the salary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, to be placed on the same footing with that of the Master of the Rolls in England. He wished time to be given for making further inquiries on the subject, and thought it might be well to defer bringing in the Bill till the next session. (VOL. XXXI.)

Mr. Peel was not aware that any vacancy in the Six-clerks Office had occurred since the appointment of the present Master of the Rolls, but he believed it had invariably been the practice of the person holding that situation to make a profit of them. Besides the purchasemoney, a fee had usually been paid to the Master of the Rolls, which fee would now no longer form a part of the emoluments of that individual.

The Report was agreed to, and leave was given to bring in a Bill.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL ESTATES.] Sir Charles Monck, without imputing any improper conduct to those who had the management of the esta es in Northumberland, belonging to Greenwich Hospital, (which estates, from his own observation, he could say, were in many respects managed exceedingly well,) thought it desirable that the House should be put in (2 U)

Mr. Croker stated the receivers to be paid by a per-centage on what they collected, and it was thought two would be better than one, as each might be supposed in some measure to be a check on the other.

possession of the sums expended on, and | trenchments he thought might be made. the revenue derived from them. He At all events the accounts ought to be therefore moved, "That there be laid produced, as they would be satisfactory to before this House, an account of the gross the House, and were but what they had a rental of the estates of Greenwich Hos-right to demand. pital, in the county of Northumberland, and of the net produce of them in the years 1808, 1809, 1810, 1811, 1812, 1813, and 1814, distinguishing the net produce of lands, houses, woods, mines, and other different kinds of produce, from each other, and the net produce of the whole from the gross produce of the whole. 2. An account of all monies expended upon repairing, extending, building anew, and rebuilding farm-houses, out-houses, and all other appurtenances to farm-houses and farm-offices, upon the said estates, in the years 1811, 1812, 1813, and 1814. 3. An account of the number of agents and bailiffs employed in managing the said estates, with their several names and salaries."

Mr. Croker said, that the estates had been exceedingly well managed, and it could not have been the interest of the receivers that they should be otherwise, as the expenses incurred on the lands could not be the means of putting a single farthing into their pockets. He could not say that they had been regulated with the same economy with which a private gentleman might manage his own estate; but within the last ten years their produce had been doubled. In the year 1805 the rental of them was 18,000l. and in the last year it was somewhere about 40,000l. This increase had been effected in such a way, that it had not been oppressive to the tenants. There were no bad debts in consequence of the advanced rents, no runaway tenants, but on the contrary, those living on the estates were in a state of comfort, if not of affluence. The papers called for would give the House very imperfect information with respect to the general state of the affairs of the Hospital, but they might supply the hon. baronet with the means of more satisfactorily investigating the subject during the recess; and therefore he should not resist the motion.

Sir M. W. Ridley understood the estates were at present managed by two receivers, who were paid 1,500l. per annum. He thought one person would be sufficient to look to them, and that he might be paid with a smaller salary. There were also a number of agents and under-agents, who might be dispensed with. Other reOther re

Mr. Baring thought it was impossible the estates could be managed so economically as they ought to be, and therefore was of opinion it might be better to sell them, and place the money in the funds.

Mr. Long said the question whether or not it would be wise to sell them, and place the money in the funds, was not now before the House. This, however, they had before them—that in 1805, they produced but 18,000l. and that in the last year they gave 40,000l. Had they been sold ten years ago, he feared the result would have been less favourable for the Hospital. He had no objection to the production of the papers. He was confident the whole of the directors would be willing to give the House all possible information on the subject; and he doubted not, on an inquiry being made, every thing would be found perfectly satisfac tory.

The motion was then put and carried.

STAMP-DUTIES NEWSPAPERS.] The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose to propose the schedule of Stamp duties of which he had given notice. He observed, that the subjects on which the additional Stamp-duties were to be imposed, were law duties and newspapers. The first of these subjects, the taxation of law proceedings, was one on which too much attention could not be bestowed. He had submitted the present schedule to several very experienced persons in the profession of the law; and since the sche dule had been before produced, there were many alterations made in it which would render it less objectionable. One alteration was, that the increased duties were not made progressive on the size of the instrument stamped, but that a certain increase of duty on each proceeding should take place. An objection also had been started against the schedule, which was, that the increase of the duties would

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Stamp Duties Newspapers. have an unequal effect upon the proceedings in small courts. This also had been remedied by a diminished scale of duties applied to the small courts. Though the taxes on law proceedings were on general grounds objectionable, yet when it was considered how small a proportion of the expenses in a law-suit consisted of law duties, the objections would not appear so great as at first might be imagined. In a suit in which the solicitor's bill was 401., the amount of the old law duties, together with the new, was 40s. In another, in which the expense was 35%., the Stampduties were 31. There was not, therefore, the same objection to these duties which at first sight seemed to attach to them. As to the duties on newspapers, the first idea which he had was to lay an additional tax of 1d. on each paper; but as it was represented that this tax would have the most disadvantageous effect upon the circulation of the papers, he had imagined the increase of the duty on advertisements in proportion to their length; but though this seemed a fair proposition, it was strongly objected to by the editors of the newspapers, and an additional Stamp-duty of one halfpenny on each paper, and 6d. on each advertisement was preferred by the majority of the persons occupied in this line. To protect the public from an increase of the price of the papers beyond the amount of the tax, an additional discount would be allowed to those who only increased the price of their paper from sixpence-halfpenny to seven-pence, which discount would not be allowed to those who increased the price to a greater sum. Although the proprietors of the London papers were not equally willing to coincide in the arrangement which he had made, he was convinced that no duty would be more cheerfully paid by the public than an increase of one halfpenny on the price of a newspaper. The sale of these publications depending almost wholly on the situation of public affairs, and as at the present time, and probably for some years to come, a laudable curiosity would be directed to the events which were passing, and which exceeded in importance any which for ages before had occurred, the additional price of one halfpenny on the publications through which the public derived their informa tion would not be grudged by the purchasers.

Sir J. Newport felt a radical objection to the tax upon newspapers; it was of the

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utmost importance to the public that this
channel of general information should be
as free as possible to the community at
large; and as the proposition of the right
hon. gentleman was likely to limit that
As to the consolation which
circulation, he thought it highly objec
tionable.
the right hon. gentleman gave the public,
that the same melancholy inducement
for political intelligence was still likely
to be protracted, so far from thinking this
a proper ground of support to a measure
like the present, he thought it the very
reason why a different policy ought to be
pursued; because, at such times of ge-
neral pressure to the community, every
facility of instruction ought to be freely ad-
mitted. Because great calamity was likely
to open upon the world, were the people
to be driven to endure the still greater
weight of additional taxation? The re-
verse was surely the true view of the
subject. Nothing could be more unfair,
when the political situation of the country
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
rendered it alive to passing events, than
should come forward and say-" We will
make you pay for intelligence, now that
we see your necessities compel you,
from the very operation of their pressure,
to be more anxious for its reception.”
Now, he (sir John Newport) would con-
tend that, so far from this position being
the correct one, the direct contrary was
the fact, and that public curiosity had a
right to be with more facility indulged,
when the state of the country afforded
sufficient reason for its excitement. In
cerns of Great Britain, the circulation of
proportion to the magnitude of the con-
her newspapers appeared smaller than
those of other countries. Look to Ame-
rica, for instance, and see how far more
extended was their circulation; and let
them consider the consequences of drying
up those sources of cheap and general
information. He was not aware that the
mode by which the right hon. gentleman
sought to guard the public against ulti-
mately paying more than the additional
halfpenny on each paper would be at all
effectual, or that it would remove bis ob-
jections to the tax. It would, in the end, he
was sure, prove as unproductive as all such
expedients of gratuitous taxation had ever
been found. Besides, the right hon. gen-
tleman could not be ignorant that if the
press were thus called into action against
the pressure of a measure like the present,
the effect would be, that although it
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