733] larize; but the noble viscount knows the Naval Administration of the Country. Amongst other reforms, which it ap- My lords; it appears to me too much the practice of the present day to strain every nerve to make this country a great military power; which, in my judgment, it can never become advantageously to any great degree; but must mainly depend for its security and greatness on its naval strength. This is the natural founIt is true, dation of the power and glory of the Bri tish empire; and on this basis our principal security must ultimately rest. the contest in which we are unfortunately engaged, assumes at present almost exclusively a military character; but if it should be protracted (and even the most sanguine cannot deny the possibility of such an event), we shall have to contend not only with the naval power of France, but, in all probability, with that of Ame❤ rica also. A state of war in Europe can scarcely fail to bring forward again those questions of neutral rights and blockade which have not been decided by the peace; and their successes in the late war will tend greatly to encourage the Americans to renew the contest. In this point of view an inquiry into the state of our naval affairs must be deemed an object of the highest importance; but, for the reasons I have before stated, it is not my intention at present to urge it. I am fully aware of the very imperfect manner in which I have discharged the duty I had imposed on myself of bringing the subject before your lordships; and nothing but a paramount sense of duty, and a desire not to appear to act with levity or inconsistency, in leaving the documents for which I had moved under more promising circumstances unnoticed on your table, would have induced me at this time to trespass on the patience of the House. The noble earl concluded with moving, That the House do now adjourn. Viscount Melville said, he should leave it to the House to decide whether the noble lord had made out a grave case against the naval administration of the country, and should content himself with noticing only a few of the most prominent topics of the speech they had just heard. The first charge brought against the Admiralty was, that of neglect in not fitting out a class of vessels able to cope with those of America. With regard to this he would observe, that it had always been the system of the British Admiralty to adapt our ships to the nature of those with which they had to contend; but it could not be supposed that the whole system of our navy could at once be changed in order to meet a few American frigates of a larger size than any vessels that had ever gone under that name. The fact was, that the Admiralty had fitted out two or three vessels of this class, but it was impossible to cover the seas with them, so as to meet the American vessels wherever they were to be found. With regard to the noble lord's statement, as to the deficiency of the Java's complement, it was the first time he had ever heard of it, and he believed it to be totally unfounded. With regard to the capture of that frigate, he thought it no disgrace in a ship of inferior force being obliged to yield to another that was greatly its superior. The same general observation was applicable to the capture of some of our sloops of war. The Americans had three or four heavy vessels of this class, and it so happened that they fell in with some British sloops of inferior size, when the result of the contest was unfortunate. But the noble lord had not adverted to the captures of American merchantmen and men of war by the British navy, by which their commerce had been almost annihilated, and by which the honour of the British flag had been upheld. The noble lord complained, that adequate attention had not been paid to skill in ship-building by the British Admiralty. It might be said, however, that this country had become the first naval power in the world, and that no nation could send to sea and keep at sea the same number of valuable and useful ships. From the number of our distant settlements, it was absolutely necessary that we should have large and roomy ships, capable of great stowage, and of keeping the sea for a long time; we could not, there fore, generally imitate the light American schooners, that were calculated rather for expedition than for those purposes to which our navy must generally be applied. Measures had been adopted to remedy that deficiency in ship-building skill which had been complained of, and be trusted that they would soon remove all ground of complaint. The noble viscount next adverted to the complaints of the inadequate protection of our trade, which he contended to be without foundation. They had heard of American privateers infesting our coasts, and committing depredations even in our creeks and harbours. He would assert, that the complaints on this head were grossly exaggerated; and when the merchants who made them were asked for their authority, they could assign no other but that of newspaper reports. He would repeat what he had stated on a former occasion, that it appeared from the books at Lloyd's, that the number of captures last year in the European seas as far as the Canaries, amounted to 172. Of these the whole number of coasters captured was 13, while of running ships, and those that deserted con. voy, the number was 94. The fact was, that many captains of merchantmen, on hearing of the termination of hostilities with France, ventured a run without convoy. This was peculiarly the case with those from the Mediterranean; and off Cape St. Vincent's they were exposed to American privateers. He could add, that the report of several captures, which appeared in the newspapers, was totally unfounded. Of this description was that of a vessel said to be taken in Dublin bay, and also the reported capture of the Blazer gunbrig off the coast of Ireland.-The next topic to which he should briefly advert, $ 1 HOUSE OF COMMONS. NEW POST-OFFICE BILL.] The order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the Post-office Bill, having been read, Mr. Lushington moved, " That the Bill be now re-committed." was the conduct of the war on the lakes of America. The noble lord asserted, that our disasters there arose from inadequate supplies: but perhaps there was no one circumstance more surprising than the extent of the naval exertions that were made in that quarter. For every seaman, shipwright, cable, and every article of military equipment, sent out from this Mr. H. Sumner then rose, and stated the country, the Americans could with facility objections he had uniformly advanced supply double the number; and yet the against the re-building of the Post-office, war ended with an acknowledged supe- on the contemplated plan, since the meariority on our part on the principal lake sure was first agitated. He apologised for -a superiority so decided, that the enemy being absent when the subject was last durst not venture to come out to meet us. discussed. The reason of which was, that, The noble lord had insinuated that deser- as it stood amongst the orders, and a great tion had latterly increased in the British variety of notices preceded it, on a day navy, from the moral effects of American when the notices were to come on first, he success. He would utterly deny the as- had no idea that the subject would have sertion; for the fact was, that desertion been discussed on that evening. Many had greatly decreased; and it was a cir- of the notices were, however, deferred, for cumstance most honourable to the cha- the purpose of then considering the Billracter of British seamen, that it was a proceeding which he did not think fair almost unknown on the lakes, where they or candid. With respect to the mode in were engaged in a species of service the which the expense of erecting the new most laborious and anxious, without hope Post-office was to be defrayed, it appeared of prize money, and where strong encou- to him to be in the highest degree unjust. ragements to desertion had been held out All taxation should be as general as posby the enemy. If any one circumstance sible; and, except in cases of local imhad more than another engaged the at-provement, this principle ought never to tention of the Board of Admiralty for years past, it was that the seamen should have no just ground of complaint as to their treatment; and he would venture to say, that there was not a seaman in the navy that was worth his victuals, who would assert the contrary. The noble viscount next proceeded to make a variety of observations on the state of the dockyards, in the course of which he said, that there was now a constant supply of wellseasoned timber for the purpose of shipbuilding, and that no necessity now existed for resorting to the merchants' yards. He concluded by opposing his negative to the present motion. Lord Rolle rose to express his opinion that a weaker case had never been brought before the House, particularly as contrasted with the voluminous mass of papers that had been moved for in support of it. He could assure the noble mover, that he would never vote for his being made first lord of the Admiralty. The Earl of Darnley replied; after which his motion was put, and negatived. The Bills on the table were then passed through their various stages, and the House adjourned. (VOL. XXXI.) be deviated from. But, in the present instance, the citizens of London, and the inhabitants of some of the adjacent counties, would be taxed for a public work, from which they would derive no more benefit than the other subjects of the empire. He never could agree to charge, on the Orphans' Fund, any part of the expense of the new building. That Fund was placed under the management of the corporation of London; and he was one of those who did not much admire the way in which they had discharged the trust committed to them. No less than 900,000l. had been subtracted from that Fund, and appropriated to that for which it was never intended. The bonds issued to raise 600,000l. of that sum, bore a discount of 16, 18, and even 20 per cent., so that in raising the money, the public had sustained a loss of not less than 160,000l. The works which the City had caused to be executed, and which were to be defrayed out of this Fund, were not entitled to approbation. Blackfriars Bridge had been open about 43 years, and it was now in such a state of decay, that, unless 40 or 50,000l. were laid out in necessary repairs, it would not probably last for twenty years more. How ill Newgate (3 B) was adapted to the purposes for which it was erected, was a complaint made by every person who examined it. That building cost 95,000l.; and the committee of that House, lately appointed to examine the state of the gaols in the metropolis, observed, in their report, that it was much to be lamented so large a sum had been so ill applied. In his opinion, the Orphans' Fund, placed as it was, under the direction of the corporation of London, was a perpetual source of job to many of the officers connected with that corporation. The hon. gentleman then adverted to the accounts of the balances of the Orphans' Fund, which had been laid before the House, and which, he expressed his belief, were not correct. He denied the necessity of having a collector of the coal duty in the port of London-although the person who filled the situation, he admitted, was very moderately paid, having only 150%. per annum. But where there was a chamberlain, into whose hands the money ought to be paid, he could not see the prudence of allowing balances to accumulate in the bands of another person. Sir James Shaw defended the city of London from the imputations attempted to be cast upon it by the hon. gentleman who had spoken last, and repeated the arguments which he had urged on former occasions in favour of this Bill. He considered the Orphans' Fund could not be better applied than in the erection of a new Post-office, which would not alone prove beneficial to the city of London itself, but to the country at large, from the great facility which would be given in the transaction of public business in this department. Mr. Grenfell considered that his hon. friend was entitled to considerable praise for the zeal which he had displayed in his opposition to this measure. He could not agree, however, in the comments which he had made on the hon. alderman opposite (sir W. Curtis), whose conduct be considered as having been unobjectionable in every sense of the word, as far as regarded his duty of collector of the duty on coals. Sir W. Curtis defended himself from the charge which had been brought against him, and submitted, that the compensation which he received for the trouble of collecting the duties on coals was far from being too liberal. There were many situations in which collectors received 51. per cent, for the execution of their duties, whereas he received but two-pence in the pound, and he was responsible for very considerable sums. With respect to the course taken by the city of London in the appropriation of the Orphans' Fund, he thought they could not do better than in appropriating it to the improvement of their streets. Mr. Baring was convinced that whatever the hon. baronet had had to do with the Orphans' Fund, had, like every other transaction of his life, been conducted with the strictest honour. But he could not let the subject pass without again entering his protest against the wanton and unnecessary expenditure of money on the building of the new Post-office. There was no doubt that it was intended to prolong the duty upon coals, in order to replenish the Orphans' Fund, and make up for the money to be taken from it. The city of London imposed these duties not only upon the city of Westminster, but also on the country for thirty or forty miles round; and this tax, altogether objectionable, was laid upon people who had no interest in the improvements to which it was applied. The hon. gentleman then repeated the objections he had made against the Bill in its different stages. It seemed as if the Treasury overflowed with money, and that Government was looking about to see how it could be expended. Something between 80,000l. and 90,000%: had been spent upon the present Postoffice within the last ten years; and before much of the mortar was hardly dry, the same persons who had thus enlarged it, came to parliament to apply to have it pulled down and rebuilt, at an expense of 600 or 700,000l. The buildings as they now stood were in good repair, and perfectly adequate to the purposes to which they were devoted. The hon. gentleman concluded with moving, as an amendment, that instead of now,' the House should go into the committee this day three months.' The House divided: For the amendment, 35; Against it, 85-Majority, 50. The House then went into the committee, when Mr. H. Sumner proposed an amendment to the clause relative to the committee for superintending the building. It was, that instead of the names of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City of London, be substituted those of the members for London, Westminster, and the four counties of Middlesex, Surrey, Essex, and Kent. On this a division took place: For the amendment, 15; Against it, 62-Majority, 47. The committee proceeded to go through the remaining clauses. Mr. Sumner observed, that it would be proper to restrict the power of purchasing buildings, which was now given to the public for five years. He thought they should be obliged to decide in eighteen months what buildings or ground they would purchase, and to complete the purchase within six months after. Mr. Gordon observed, that there was no clause in the Bill to insure the competition of architects in preparing estimates. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that it was for the Treasury to procure a plan by competition between the architects, but he did not intend to propose the insertion of a clause to that effect in the Bill. Before Parliament met again, it might be in the power of the Government to select the plan and submit it to the House. Mr. Sumner thought that the House should see the plan and estimate before the money was voted. Mr. Butterworth observed, that a fair estimate, founded on the size of the posed area, had been given in. Mr. Bankes thought the proposed area was much larger than necessary. Upon the clause for appointing commissioners to superintend the clearing of the ground, Mr. Sumner observed, that the value of the materials of the houses purchased for this area would be about 60,000l., of which the Orphans' Fund ought to be given credit for its proportion. He understood that all this was to be applied to making a new great sewer. Now he could not see, if a sewer was necessary in this part of the town, why it should not be made at the expense of the parishes, or why it should be thrown on the Orphans' Fund. Upon the clause, that the sum of 240,000l. should be granted by Govern ment for the purposes of the Act, Mr. Sumner declared, that he was not one who found fault with the right hon. gentleman for raising 36,000,000l. for carrying on the war. He considered it as a choice of two evils, and was decidedly of opinion, that it was better to engage manfully in the contest at this moment, than to labour under more disadvantages twelve months hence. He thought it better to make the effort at once, and give his concurrence most cordially to the popro-licy that was about to be pursued. At the same time, however, it was painful for him to find many grievous and unnecessary burthens brought into the account; he Mr. Sumner said, that he always sus- considered it quite unnecessary to vote so pected, and still did suspect, that there large a sum of money for building a new was some abominable job lurking in the Post-office, whilst the country was groanback ground. When an area was pur-ing and dying under the anticipation of chased so much larger than the necessities future taxation. He objected to every of a post-office required, he did suppose superfluous expense, and must, therefore, that the object was to build elegant resist this clause. houses for the persons employed in the The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought Post-office. When he endeavoured to it more manly to bring forward the exget information for the committee on this penses at once. It was not to be undersubject, the constant answer was, that al-stood, that the whole of the money would most every office he could mention must be on the ground floor, or there might be a most serious public inconvenience. He had even asked, was it absolutely necessary that the room in which the coachmen's great coats were left should be on the ground floor, and he was told that it was necessary. The consequences that he expected to follow were that after a very great area of ground was bought, and covered with all the necessary offices for carrying on the business of the Post-office on the ground floor, it would then be proposed to fit up elegant apartments over them, for the accommodation of those persons to whom it was wished to afford this accommodation. be wanted immediately, but power was given to provide for the charges, as they should be required from time to time. Mr. Sumner maintained, that a progressive vote would manifest a due and proper attention to the expenses of the country, under existing circumstances. It would show a wish on the part of Government to reduce the expenditure as much as possible. Mr. Gordon could not understand that it was absolutely necessary to build a new Post-office this year, as the business had been hitherto conducted with so much ability. He trusted, therefore, that his hon. friend would press a division on this clause. |