1. "That it appears that there was paid by the public to the Bank for managing the national debt, including the charge for contributions on Loans and Lotteries, in the year ending 5th July, 1792, the sum of 99,8031. 12s. 5d.; and that there was paid for the like service, in the year ending April 5, 1815, the sum of 281,5684. 6s. 111d. being an increase of 181,7641. 14s. 6d. In addition to which the Bank of England have charged at the rate of 1,250l. per million on the amount of property duty received at the Bank on profits arising from professions, trades, and offices.

bank post-bills, in circulation, as may have been invested by the Bank in securities bearing interest, was productive, during the same period, of interest and profit to the Bank of England.

7. "That the only participation hitherto enjoyed by the public, since the year 1806, in the profits thus made on such deposits by the Bank, has consisted in a loan of 3,000,000l. advanced to the public by the Bank, by the 46 Geo. 3, cap. 41, bear. ing 3 per cent. interest, which loan was discharged in December, 1814, and in another loan of 3,000,000l. advanced to the public by the Bank, by the 48 Geo. 3,

2. "That the total amount of bank-cap. 3, free of any charge of interest, notes and bank post-bills in circulation in the years 1795 and 1796 (the latter being the year previous to the restriction on cash payments), and in the year 1814 was as follows:

1795, Feb. 1, 12,735,520.; Aug. 1, 11,214,000l. 1796, Feb. 1, 10,784,740.; Aug. 1, 9,856,110. 1814, Feb. 1, 25,154,950.; Aug. 1, 28,802,450. 3. "That at present, and during many years past, more particularly since the year 1806, considerable sums of public money, forming together an average stationary balance amounting to many millions, have been deposited with, or otherwise placed in the custody of the Bank of England, acting in this respect as the bankers of the public.

which loan became payable in December 1814; but has, by an Act of the present session of parliament, cap. 16, been continued to the 5th of April, 1816.

8. "That this House will take into early consideration the advantages derived by the Bank, as well from the management of the National Debt, as from the amount of balances of public money remaining in their hands, with the view to the adoption of such an arrangement, when the engagements now subsisting shall have expired, as may be consistent with what is due to the interests of the public, and to the rights, credit, and stability of the Bank of England."

The question being put on the first Resolution,

4. "That it appears from a Report, ordered to be printed August 10, 1807, The Chancellor of the Exchequer observfrom the Committee on the Public Ex-ed, that on a string of resolutions which penditure of the United Kingdom,' that the aggregate amount of balances, and deposits of public money in the hands of the Bank of England, including banknotes, deposited in the Exchequer, made up in four different periods of the quarter, ending 5th Jan. 1807, fluctuated betwixt the sums of 11,461,200l. and 12,198,236., including bank-notes deposited in the chests of the Exchequer; or, 8,178,536l. and 9,948,400l., excluding bank-notes deposited in the Exchequer.

5. "That the aggregate amount of such deposits, together with the exchequer-bills and bank-notes deposited in the chests of the four Tellers of the Exchequer, was, on an average, in the year 1814, 11,966,371. including bank-notes deposited at the Exchequer, amounting to 642,2641.; or, 11,324,107., excluding bank notes deposited at the Exchequer.

6. "That it appears that this aggregate amount of deposits, together with such portions of the amount of bank-notes and

related to so many complicated transac
tions, it was impossible for the House im-
mediately to decide, with satisfaction to
themselves or justice to the parties; and
he could take no other course than to
move an adjournment of the debate to
afford time for consideration. If the hon.
mover had taken the same view of the
question, it would have been the most
convenient course that he should have ab-
stained from any remarks on bringing
them forward; but as the hon. mover had
made some observations, he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) should also think
it necessary to say a few words. As a
servant of the public, it was his duty, per
haps, to attempt to push to the utmost
extent the statements of the hon. gentle-
man; but he had a duty to justice, which
was superior to his official duties, and
which obliged him to say, that hon. gen.
tleman's statements were exaggerated, and
his deductions erroneous.
The hon. gen-
tleman had taken the amount of the ba

a few

days submit a motion to the House, the object of which was to make an arrangement, by which the public would obtain a benefit from the extent of this species of circulation. The extent of the Bank issues had been alike advantageous to the Bank and the Country, and afforded no ground to extort unfair terms from the Bank in any bargain made between that body and the public. As to the charge on the amount of the Property-tax paid into the Bank, it was so small that it was the last thing he should have thought would have been objected to; indeed, the whole of the management of that tax was extremely economical. He should move as an amendment, that the debate be adjourned to this day week: in the mean time any hon. gentleman might move for papers to elucidate the transactions to which the Resolutions referred.

F

JUNE 13, 1815. lance in the hands of the Bank just pre-entrusted to them, and he should vious to the bargain concluded between Mr. Perceval and the Bank, with that now in their hands. The increase had been not quite a million, and the public continued to receive the remuneration which Mr. Perceval had stipulated for. When that agreement of the Bank with the public expired, it might be proper to consider how far that bargain had been beneficial; in the mean time, the Bank could not be censured as if it had imposed upon the public, as it paid the sum which had been stipulated for in 1808. It was said that the Bank could make more profit from the balance which remained in its hands than private bankers, because it need only have recourse to pen and ink. If the Bank so managed their affairs, public credit would be in a most dangerous state; neither would they be justified to Parliament and the Country if they increased their issues without regard to any thing but their own Mr. Ponsonby did not rise to oppose the convenience. As to the terms on which amendment of the right hon. gentleman, private bankers would undertake the care but to correct the mis-statements which of the public money, he was very ready he had urged against the motion of his to believe that there were many in Lon- hon. friend, who by no means insinuated don who would be glad to get eleven mil- a charge against the Bank for the terms lions into their hands on any terms at all; on which they transacted the public bubut the question was, whether these bank-siness; but merely on the ground of an ers could afford such security to the improvident bargain having been made public as to justify the repeal of twenty on the part of the public. No imposition Acts, by which the public money was was imputed to the Bank; all that was specially directed to be paid into the wanted was a revision of the contract in Bank of England. It was true that the future, and be concurred in the necessity charge of the Bank for the management of allowing intermediate time for that of the public debt, had increased from purpose. The plain object of his hon. about 100,000l. to 280,000l. since 1792; friend's motion was to procure a fair barbut the amount of the debt managed had gain for the public; in doing this he by increased in a still greater proportion, and the accounts had been multiplied to an extent not foreseen. The rate of allowance on the management of the debt had been lessened of late years, but that allowance might be revised upon due consideration; but in the mean time they could not complain that injustice had been done to the public. It was not any great distance of time since the present allowance had seemed reasonable to the House. The hon. gentleman had not taken the expense of the management of the debt at the time when the last arrangement had been made (1808), but had mounted to an earlier period, to compare the charge at that time with the charge of the present year; such a comparison was not, therefore, fair to the Bank. As to the increase of the issue of bank-notes, the Bank was answerable to Parliament if they abused the discretion

no

means cast any reflection upon the Bank. With reference to the general Acts of Parliament, these were only binding for a certain time, and it was competent for Parliament to revise them at pleasure. The right hon. gentleman concluded by calling the serious attention of the House to the Resolutions, and hoping that they would be printed preparatory to any further discussion.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he was very glad to hear that there was no intention of bringing any charge against the Bank.

Mr. Grenfell, in explanation, said, that he was astonished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have conceived that there was any such intention. He had taken pains most explicitly to disclaim any such intention.

Mr. Rose observed, that the hon. mover

had not explained to the House in what method the public money was to be disposed of, if not left in the hands of the Bank. His only alternative was to entrust it to private bankers.

Mr. Grenfell explained, that he had only mentioned private bankers with a view to ascertain what was the proper remuneration to the Bank for the management of the public debt.

Mr. Rose observed, that if private bankers were not resorted to, there was no alternative but to trust the money to the Bank.

for the secret understanding which prevailed between the parties alluded to, But it was not the fault of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time being, that the Bank was not made duly answerable for the profit of the public balances remaining in his hands. For no Chancellor of the Exchequer could, under existing circumstances, safely dispute with the Bank, as the fact was, that the Treasury could not go on without the concurrence and aid of that body. Hence the Bank had the power to make as good a bargain for itself as it thought proper. The House had no doubt heard a great deal about liberality and fine feeling in the transactions of the Bank with regard to the public; but, without meaning any disrespect, he really could not calculate upon much fine feeling or liberality to the east of Temple-bar, especially upon money matters-[A laugh]. The object of his hon, friend's motion was to ascertain the emoluments derived by the Bank from its transactions with the public, in order to know what participation of profit the public was intitled to expect; and according to the last Resolution, it was the opinion of his hon. friend that a much better arrangement for the public might be made with the Bank, than that which at present existed. In this opinion he decidedly concurred. He did not require or expect that an improved arrangement could be obtained by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or by any individual holding his office; for he could not well drive a bar,

Mr. Tierney said, that according to the right hon. gentleman, the public were in . the hands of the Bank, and it was lucky they did not exact still harder terms from the public. As to the entrusting the public money to private bankers, his hon. friend who made the motion had said nothing of the kind; he had merely mentioned private bankers to illustrate the subject. He would appeal to any banker in the House, whether the staple balance which his hon. friend had fixed on as a remuneration to the Bank was not ample, supposing the security sufficient. Would not the hon. baronet opposite (sir W. Curtis) be ready to jump at one-third of the sum? Notwithstanding the assertion of the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, it had been thought by some wellinformed persons, that it was possible to set up an establishment in opposition to the Bank of England as its rival in the management of the money affairs of the public. The right hon. gentleman ex-gain with a body upon whose will the pressed his surprise that the House had heard nothing upon the subject from the Bank itself. There were the governor and two directors of the Bank in that House, and yet none of them spoke a word. But it seemed the resolution of these gentlemen never to open their lips, unless they could get something by it. They should not, however, leave a discussion of this nature to be managed on their part solely by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for that was not dealing fairly either by that right hon. gentleman or by the House. But such conduct, combined with other circumstances, served to be tray the existence of that clandestine system between the Bank and the Treasury which he had long suspected; for he could never get at the secret of how many exchequer-bills were purchased by the Bank. No; this fact was studiously concealed, and that concealment accounted

Treasury was so dependent. But he put
it to that House to consider, whether the
public had not a fair claim to a due share
of those enormous profits, which the Bank
extracted from the exigencies of the coun-
try. No one could deny, that in conse-
quence of the restriction of cash payments,
the Bank derived a profit far beyond what
could have been contemplated by the
Bank proprietors, before that restriction
took place. Those proprietors, then,
should not be allowed to monopolize pro-
fits arising out of the distress of the em-
pire. Some return was surely due to the
public; but an adequate return could
never be expected through the Chancellor
of the Exchequer of the Treasury. If,
however, that House took up the question,
he had no doubt that the Bank would
be obliged to make such return; and
with that view he supported his hon.
friend's proposition.
But he should con

769]

Profits of the Bank of England. sent to the proposed postponement of the discussion, in the hope that some resolutions would be brought forward on the other side, calculated to put the House Those in complete possession of the case. Resolutions, however, should not be left entirely to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but should contain what the Bank had to state; and therefore he expected that although the Bank directors declined to speak, they would endeavour to write for the information of the House upon this question.

Government, and in matters of so much confidence and delicacy, could not be elsewhere so well placed. With respect to the allowance to the Bank for the management of the public debt, he said it was true that in 1792 the allowance was about 99,000l., and in 1814, 280,000l.: but did gentlemen consider the immense increase in the national debt; the risk and the difficulty of conducting it? The number of clerks was in the first period 380; and now above 1,000. He next adverted to the gratuitous services rendered by the Mr. Rose explained. He thought it Bank to the public:-for receiving the might be proper to re-consider the bar-tax on trading profits, they charged nogain with the Bank, as the public were thing; 17,500,000l. 5 per cents. had been undoubtedly entitled to as good an ar- either paid off, or converted into other stock, without any charge for superintendrangement as could be made for them. Mr. Huskisson defended the bargaining this service; nearly one hundred made with the Bank by the late Mr. Per- millions of exchequer-bills had, in the ceval, in 1808. In that transaction Go- last eight years, been funded, and no vernment had employed every possible charge made for it by the Bank. Lastly, argument in favour of the public, and it by the capital of the Bank, lent at 3 per was not without considerable difficulty cent. interest, three millions without inthat they obtained from the Court of Di-terest, and other concessions, the public rectors a loan of three millions without interest. It was, however, now open to the House to re-consider the bargain.