because then he believed they would never be employed at all. Field labour unfitted girls for domestic service, and induced immorality, and on these accounts the question peremptorily demanded attention. The employment of boys also required regulating. There was no intermission of the labour of boys, so numerous were the jobs to which they were put. Although Englishmen were averse to compulsory measures, he thought it would be well to forbid the employment of a boy who could not read or write; indeed, without such a regulation he thought it would be impossible to get the poor properly educated. On making inquiry he found that scarcely any of the boys on his farm could read or write. He sent them to an evening school; but that had remedied the evil as far as his farm only was concerned. He thought it a mistake to suppose that field labour hurt young people physically. The evil was a moral one; and in gangs, of which he knew little, he presumed it was to be found in the indiscriminate mixture of boys and girls. He had found that female labourers might be dispensed with. With regard to cottages, it was clearly the interest of the landowner to build them. He always provided not less than three rooms where there were both sexes in a family. He thought the condition of the rural districts was not quite so black as it had been painted. As an instance he might mention that in his own neighbourhood a tenant farmer had presented a reading room, for the use of the labourers of the parish. He objected to agricultural employments being tacked on to the Factory Acts; but he believed a separate measure might be framed which, while no hardship to the farmers, would be of great advantage to the labourers. MR. WALPOLE said, he agreed with the hon. Member, that they could not deal with field labour in the same way as with labour in factories. The Report which had been referred to related only to public or to organized gangs of labour. The hon. Member for Scarborough (Mr. Dent), who had brought the subject so ably and clearly before them, desired legislation for women and children employed in agriculture as if they were employed in factories. His opinion was that if they attempted to legislate in that manner they would not be able to follow it out. He cordially assented to the Resolution which the hon. Gentleman had moved, on the understanding that it did not imply that the employment of women and children should be placed under the same regulations as factories, but that the principles of the Factory Acts should be applied to it as far as practicable. Whether immediate legislation could be founded upon the Resolution was open to doubt, for only public or organized gangs had yet been reported on, although the evils attending private gangs were equally great. He had considered the subject a good deal since reading the sixth Report of the Royal Commissioners. The number of women and children employed in public gangs was much less than the number employed in private gangs. There were about 6,400 employed in public gangs, and-according to the best information he had-nearly 20,000 in private gangs. He wished to impress on the House and hon. Gentlemen opposite, that if they attempted to legislate for public gangs before they had information as to private gangs they would find themselves in a great difficulty; for if they legislated for the one and not the other, the gangs being frequently in close proximity, they would drive the women and children from the one to the other. The time, therefore, had hardly arrived for legislating on the subject. He had ascertained that Mr. Tremenheere was of opinion that the inquiry ought to be extended to private gangs. He thought, therefore, the best plan would be to re-appoint the Commission for that purpose. The inquiry could probably be completed by the end of the autumn or beginning of the winter, and the House would then be in a position to legislate with regard to the employment of women and children in gangs of any kind. Whether the employment of women and children in agriculture generally could be regulated was a larger and more difficult question, which must, he thought, be postponed to a later period. In the meantime, he heartily supported the Resolution proposed by the hon. Member for Scarborough. SIR HARRY VERNEY said, he regretted that immediate legislation was not instituted, since he thought the Commissioners had already reported on private gangs, and on the general employment of women and children in agriculture, and that their Report presented ample mate rials for Parliamentary action. Some of the evidence which had been taken was in favour of compulsory education, and there might be some stipulation with respect to the age and acquirements of children {APRIL 2, 1867} allowed to labour. Parliament certainly | ought not to permit another year to pass without ameliorating the disgraceful and indecent state of things which existed in some parts of the country. age MR. NEWDEGATE said, he must remind the House, as to building cottages in the fens of Lincolnshire, that it was only in recent years that the fens had been rendered habitable. Formerly the miasma was so bad that farmers who resided in the districts died of ague. Recently drainhad been carried out to a great extent, and the water during the hot weather was forced up the drains, and in that way the miasma was dissipated, or sufficiently so to The rerender the district habitable. marks of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Fawcett) upon the landowners for not building houses were totally misapplied. At the same time, he was far from saying that some restraint should not be placed on the gang system. If it were to be allowed to prevail it would have to be regulated in the same way as labour was The evils were in mines and potteries. the result of the new system of farming. Under the old system of agriculture the farmer was identified with his labourers by ties of neighbourhood and of instruction in farming, but the modern system was based upon economical principles and looked chiefly, if not only, to profits. The gang system, therefore, was of recent growth, and though it might have advantages, it had many evils. He was glad that the question had been brought under discussion, and hoped some good would be the result. MR. DENT said, he had felt much gratification at the recognition of the evil by practical agriculturalists on both sides of the House. He left it to the Government to determine whether or not they had sufficient information to justify legislation, only trusting that whenever a measure was introduced it would deal with the whole question of the employment of women and children in agriculture. Resolution agreed to. Resolved, That, in the opinion of this House, the employment of Women and Children in Agriculture should be regulated, as far as may be, by the principles of the Factory Acts.-(Mr. Dent.) RAILWAY COMPANIES DEBENTURE DEBT.-RESOLUTION. "That it is expedient in the interests of the I am about to bring under the considera- MR. CRAWFORD*: Sir, I rise to the public, and therefore that it behoves move the following Resolution: VOL. CLXXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.] Parliament to see that the advantages 2 L which railways were intended to confer on unknown period if I were to wait until the community are not frittered away by the Report of that Commission has been mismanagement. Every other considera- placed upon the table. I think it better, tion should, in my humble opinion, be sub- therefore, to submit at once to the House, ordinate to that. Salus populi suprema clearly and distinctly, the proposal which lex. I wish to bring under its notice. But Now, Sir, the proposition which I have perhaps it may be convenient first to into submit to the House involves two sug- quire for a moment or two into the meangestions. The one is, that the State shall, ing of the term "railway system." What under certain circumstances, assume the does our railway system imply; what does responsibility of the debenture debt of it signify? What is this immense machine railway companies; the other is, that it by means of which the whole intercourse shall do so upon conditions which provide of the country is carried on? Sir, I hold for the eventual acquisition of such rail- in my hand the last Annual Report from ways by the State; and to both of these the Board of Trade on the subject of railpropositions a subordinate condition is ways. It is for the year 1865. I have annexed; first, that in every case where carefully examined that Report, not with assistance is given by the State, the a view to the present Motion only, but company assisted shall furnish adequate with reference to the general question and security; and secondly, that the terms, the public interest it involves; and perhaps under which the State may acquire in the the House may derive instructive informacourse of years the ownership of the rail- tion from some of the figures contained in way, shall be terms of mutual advantage it. I will read those figures to show the to the public and to the railway com- extent to which our national interests are panies. Both of these propositions I am at present bound up with our railway prepared to maintain, and my object now system. On the 31st December, 1865, will be to explain the manner in which I the whole capital embarked in railway think Parliament may-not perhaps im-undertakings in the United Kingdommediately, but at some future time-make | amounted to £455,478,143. Of that sum arrangements for carrying them into effect. £357,657,046 was composed of share It may be asked why I have chosen to take capital, and £97,821,097 of debenture the course of proceeding by way of Reso- and other loans. In England and Wales lution, when it might be more convenient the share and stock capital amounted to if I were to ask the House to give me £299,184,751, and the debenture loans leave to lay a Bill upon the table. But to £80,420,076. In Scotland the share it is no easy matter to draw a Bill, even capital amounted to £38,569,767, the dewith a single clause in it, so as to meet benture loans to £11,636,265; and in the general concurrence of the House, as Ireland there were £19,902,528 of share my hon. Friend the Member for York and stock capital, and £5,764,756 of de(Mr. Leeman) no doubt has experienced. benture loans. The number of miles over My Bill, if I were to produce one, must be which railway lines extended was 13,289. a Bill of prodigious magnitude, and must We now come to a fact which will perhaps have been drawn up with a thorough astonish hon. Members. It is the extent knowledge of the relations which exist to which railway locomotion is made use of between the different Departments of the by the people of these islands. In the Government and the subject of the pro-year 1865 there were carried upon these posed Bill. And even if I had possessed lines no less than 252,000,000 of peoplethe requisite knowledge, I could hardly that is to say, about 700,000 persons were have gone to the expense of preparing carried every day over some one or other such a Bill, for hon. Gentlemen know of these lines a circumstance which well that a Bill of this character is not to amounts to this, that every man, woman, be drawn without a large number of Bills and child in the country made on an of another kind coming on the back of it. average eight journeys of more or less Then it may be asked why I have not extent by railway in the year 1865. From waited for the Report of the Royal Com- that we may derive some idea of the enormission on the subject of railways gene- mous extent to which railway communicarally. My answer is that I do not know tion has become a matter of daily necessity when that Report is likely to be presented, amongst us. I might also give the House nor what its terms will be when presented; figures as to the quantity of live stock, it would be deferring the subject to an minerals, and general merchandize carried by railways, but hon. Members will be able | companies of the lands taken under comto ascertain these things for themselves. I pulsory powers from individuals for the will merely state that 78,000,000 tons of construction of these public works. Anominerals are annually carried by railways ther great error into which we fell in the -a fact indicating the enormous extent course of our legislation was to leave so to which the manufacturing interest and the large an amount of capital, about to be consumers of coal for domestic purposes sunk in a fixed undertaking, to be raised are dependent upon railways. The whole in the form of short debentures. What sum received for passengers and goods could be more unwise, or more unsafe as during the year 1865 was £35,890,113. is now found by practical experience, than With that information before the House it to permit about £100,000,000 to be inwill be readily conceived what a vast effect vested in railway works, in a form which upon the national interests would be pro- renders it necessary for those who borrow duced by the cessation of working or the money in that shape to be constantly, stoppage of any one of the principal lines I may say almost hourly, coming before of the system. This may be a tempting the public for a renewal of their loans? opportunity for entering into a review of This was all very well when the horizon our railway legislation from the earliest was clear, when there was an abundance period; but I will not take up the time of of money in the market, and, above all, the House by doing so. It will be suffi- when confidence was undisturbed and peocient for my purpose to say that, in the ple wished for such securities. But times opinion of many persons competent to would come-and we are now, I believe, judge, Parliament has legislated upon no in one of those times - when the same fixed principles. There has been a sort facilities for obtaining money do not exist, of fortuitous legislation dependent on the and when difficulties take their place, with composition of Committees, the intelligence which it is almost impossible to cope. There of counsel, the activity of agents, and a were some reasons, no doubt, why such a variety of other circumstances, all of which, large amount of capital was allowed to be if we could have seen our way at an earlier raised in so exceptional a form. One reason period, ought to have been made subordi- was that a debenture was a form of innate to the carrying out of a general vestment which trustees and other persons scheme upon principles applicable to the could take who were precluded from holdwhole country. A system of that kind we ing shares because of the risk. Another have never yet arrived at; but, although reason was the expectation that the profits we have not done so, I do believe that the upon railways would be so large that a time is coming when we may, to a certain limited amount of interest payable upon extent, be able to take those steps in that debentures would leave a proportionately direction which ought to have been taken larger sum to be divided upon the capital at an earlier period. Dealing with legis- stock of the company. But, however that lation in an experimental form, we have might be, that reason has now fallen to benefited foreign nations and other people the ground, for, with very few and rare to a much greater extent than ourselves. exceptions, debentures may be said to pay We have been the pioneers of railway en- a better interest than the stock of the terprize; other nations have seen our mis- companies. Another mistake into which takes and adopted wiser courses. There the Legislature has fallen is this-that is one point which I apprehend must be there is nowhere to be found a clear defiadmitted on all hands. On the inception nition of working expenses, that is to say, of railway legislation, five-and-thirty years nothing to define the charges, which ought ago, it was not a wise proceeding for Par- to go to make up the working expenses of liament to authorize a number of private a company, before you arrive at the profit persons, forming a company, to take the upon which the debenture interest forms lands of A and B, and hold them in their the first charge. The definition of what possession to all eternity. The wiser course is proper working expenditure is a disputed would have been to have allowed these point. Of course, there are the obvious persons to acquire a sort of Parliamentary charges for conducting the business of the lease for a long term of years. In point company, about which there can be no disof fact, we ought to have adopted the sys- pute. But then there come other contem which our experience has suggested siderations such as the Queen's taxes and to the French and other nations of grant- local taxes; then there are compensations ing long but still limited leases to railway and charges of a very debateable character in the form of the rent paid for leased lines. | mouth. Many of our railway companies This last point is difficult to deal with, from are experiencing at the present moment the fact that leased lines may be held by the utmost difficulty in renewing their dethe companies leasing them under circum- bentures. I need not allude to particular stances differing in different companies. companies. But I dare say there are some For instance, if a company leases a line, Gentlemen in this House-probably more which is simply a branch line, then it may than one or two-who hold railway debennot be a very difficult thing to estimate the tures, and, if they have bonds which fall claim which is to be charged on the work- due this month, they will feel in their own ing expenses. But in the case of such a persons a practical exemplification of the line as the " Mid-Kent," leased to the difficulties which I have named. I have London, Chatham, and Dover Company, said that the difficulty has arisen, in a and which forms a link in the main chain great degree, out of the judgment of Lord of its communication, it is a very different Cairns. Upon that judgment I am not thing. That line, in fact, forms an integral going to indulge in one word of criticism. part of the main line, and if it were severed I feel that I am not competent to do so, from or taken out of the main line the because I should not be able to state it in traffic could not be carried on. Upon proper phraseology, or in terms such as the subject of debenture securities, I wish legal gentlemen may not fairly take exto quote a few words from the recent ception to. I have, however, an idea of celebrated judgment delivered by Lord my own upon the subject; and this I may Cairnsbe allowed to say, that, looking at the position of those companies, which, in consequence of that judgment, may be unable to renew their debentures falling due, I conceive it to be not impossible, or even improbable, that the Court of Chancery may be called upon to interfere. I should like to know what is the position of a company which once finds itself within the domain of the Court of Chancery. Now, I will read one or two words from the judgment I have referred to. Lord Cairns said "Although I have arrived at the opinion which I have expressed without hesitation, I cannot avoid feeling regret that securities such as railway debentures, upon which so many millions of money have been invested, should have been left at their creation in a state to admit of so much argument as that which has taken place in this case, and that their legal operation and extent should come to be defined not at the time when they have been given as security, but after difficulties have arisen in their repayment." I quote these words as illustrating the want of forethought and consideration for the future, which has characterized all the railway legislation of this country. There are a variety of ways in which short debentures operate unfavourably upon various interests; but I do not imagine that there is any interest which suffers more than that of the Government itself. Formerly the Chancellor of the Exchequer had no difficulty in floating £40,000,000 of Exchequer bills in the market, whereas now he can rarely float £10,000,000, because of the demand for money on the part of railway companies to renew their debentures constantly falling due. The Government suffer; the public suffer; and the shareholders suffer; and therefore it seems to me, that one of the objects which we ought to have in view is, if possible, to frame such a new system of legislation, with reference to railway capital, as shall remove, as far as possible, the future probability of difficulty arising from this constantly-recurring necessity. Now, the present position of our railway companies is becoming exceedingly serious. There is no disguising the fact; it is in everybody's "When the Court appoints a manager of a business or undertaking, it in effect assumes the management into its own hands; for the manager is the servant or officer of the Court, and, upon any question arising as to the character or details of the management, it is the Court that must particular case, the persons appointed were predirect and decide. The circumstance that, in this viously the managers employed by the company, is immaterial. When appointed by the Court, they are responsible to the Court, and no orders with this responsibility. Now, I apprehend that of the company or of the Directors can interfere nothing is better settled than that this Court does not assume the management of a business or undertaking except with a view to the windingup and sale of the business or undertaking. The cessity and its justification spring out of the jurismanagement is an interim management; its nediction to liquidate and to sell; the business or undertaking is managed and continued in order that it may be sold as a going concern, and with the sale the management ends." Now, the point I wish to insist upon is this-that when a railway company finds itself under the jurisdiction of the Court of Chaucery in the sense to which I have alluded, the Court of Chancery becomes as it were the manager of the company for |