The House divided:-Ayes 78; Noes | decline in numbers; but the causes which 173: Majority 95. Words added. operated before the famine in preventing Main Question, as amended, put, and they ought to be still existed, the want of agreed to. Bill put off for six months. SEA COAST FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL. (Mr. Blake, Colonel Tottenham, Mr. Brady.) [BILL 50.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. MR. BLAKE, in moving that the Bill be read a second time, regretted the lateness of the hour precluded him, in justice to the hon. Members who wished to speak also on the subject, from entering into it as fully as he wished. He would curtail his remarks to the narrowest limits, more especially as he had extensively circulated in a printed form reasons in support of the measure. Twenty-one years ago competent authorities declared that the coasts around Ireland ought to give employment to four times the number of people engaged in the fisheries, and that the capture ought to be in the same proportion. There were at that time nearly 20,000 vessels and boats and upwards of 100,000 men The and boys employed in the fisheries. modes of capture had in the meantime improved, prices had increased, though fish was quite as abundant, increased facilities of transit had enabled markets to be more easily reached, and yet to-day there were not above 10,000 vessels and boats, and 40,000 hands engaged, showing a diminution of more than one-half of the latter, and fully half the former. The cause of this was in part told in the Report of the Royal Commissioners appointed in 1864 to examine into the fisheries of the kingdom "The fishermen suffered to the full extent in the misfortunes of the famine, and as most of them became physically incapable of going to sea, it were starving was frequently found that men whilst fish was in abundance. In many parts of Ireland the fishing population has not yet recovered from the depression and ruin caused by the famine, and the subsequent emigration, by taking off the youngest and ablest of the fishermen, and leaving behind the old and incompetent, operated most injuriously." Thousands of poor fishermen had to sell their boats and gear for anything they could get, and thousands of craft were suffered to go to decay, the owners in both instances never being able to replace them. This accounted in a great measure for the In good fishing harbours, want of capital to This Persons of capital were deterred in many instances from investing in large boats, as during hard weather they should keep their crews idle, from not being able to follow fish up estuaries, which could not be caught by small boats, and which after a time dashed back to sea again, and might never be captured. The provisions regarding loans were the most important in the Bill. They would in the first place enable owners of property on its security to obtain loans to plant oyster beds on the shore adjacent to their lands, and in the next empower the Board of Works to advance small sums on approved security for procuring boats and gear. This would very much encourage the purchase of craft more suited to deep-sea fishing than those generally used by the humbler fishermen. The Royal Commission of 1836 strongly recommended the encouragement of loan funds. A society, of which Mr. Andrews, the eminent authority on fisheries, was a trustee, had in a few years 2 N 2 That the Bill be now read a second Motion made, and Question proposed, time."-(Mr. Blake.) advanced several thousand pounds to poor on. The present Government on accession fishermen, which, he stated, had all been to office had through the Leader in the repaid, after conferring great advantages House expressed a desire to promote the on the recipients. Some, perhaps, would material interests of Ireland. As yet, urge that to make advances to fishermen however, Ireland had been obliged to take was contrary to the principles of political the promise for the deed. A good opporeconomy. On that day he had put the tunity now offered, without risk of loss to question to the first political economist of the State, of rendering a service to Ireland the age, who considered that the Irish by aiding to place in a flourishing position fishermen ought to be fostered and en- the important industrial resource which he couraged by such means. A gentleman, had brought under their notice. The who from his experience and official posi- Irish Members on both sides seemed most tion ought to be competent to pronounce, anxious that the matter should be taken had been quoted in a recent pamphlet as into consideration, and the leading Irish having stated that the Irish fisheries were metropolitan journals, Conservative and capable of supporting twenty times the Liberal, had with great public spirit and present fleet. Now, suppose that half ability urged the subject on the attention that figure were adopted, and that ten of Government, and advocated an inquiry times the present crews obtained a living, which he hoped the House would not and contributed only £25 per man to the refuse. stock of fish, there would, in round numbers, be 500,000 of additional people em. ployed, and £5,000,000 extra circulated among the Irish people, and fully £15,000,000 of additional food contributed to the stock of provisions of the kingdom. How £5,000,000 worth of fish represented £15,000,000 worth of food could be easily explained. A farmer easily obtained £60 per ton for his beef, the fisherman only got £7 per ton for his fish, prime and offal together. Now, even admitting that 1 lb of beef was worth 3 lb of fish in point of nutriment (and which it certainly was not), still those who bought it at £7 per ton had it at one-ninth the price of meat. With such a number of additional people employed, and so much money circulating, how far it would go to allay discontent and disaffection, and what a splendid nursery would be formed for the Mercantile and Royal Marine. Sensible of the latter advantage, the Emperor of the French was giving bounties and doing all he could to advance the fisheries of his kingdom. Their attention to fisheries enabled the Dutch once as a maritime Power to cope with England, and Dutchman boasted that their noble city of Amsterdam had its foundation laid on herring bones. He (Mr. Blake) admitted that there were some points in the Bill opened to controversy, and therefore did not seek it should become law until fully considered. The best way of doing this would be to refer it to a Select Committee of the House. In fact, the subject, together with the inland fisheries, had been so referred in 1862; but the latter, at his (Mr. Blake's) instance, was only then considered and reported LORD NAAS said, it was impossible for him that day to enter very largely into the question which the hon. Gentleman had brought forward. The matter, however, was one of very great importance, and the Bill before the House would have the effect of repealing nearly the whole of their existing legislation upon it. He was disinclined to resist the appeal made to him by his hon. Friend; but he must guard himself and the Government from being supposed to be favourable to some portions of the Bill. Two Reports on that subject from very able Royal Commissions lay on the table of the House, and those two high authorities differed most essentially on some points connected with that question. Therefore, the House ought to be careful before it took any very decided line on the matter. Moreover, he understood that Parliament would probably be invited at no very distant day to consider the whole question of deep-sea fisheries as regarded the United Kingdom; and, if that were the case, it would, he thought, be premature for the House to legislate absolutely for one part of the United Kingdom. Still, the subject was not one which ought to be delayed unnecessarily, and he was not indisposed, therefore, to assent to the second reading of the Bill on the understanding that no further step should be taken in the matter until after Easter, when they would probably be better able to judge of the effect of recent legislation on certain parts of the question, and particularly with reference to the for- course. SIR HENRY WINSTON - BARRON said, he wished to give notice that, after the second reading of the Bill, he should move that it be referred to a Select Committee; for he was convinced that only in this way could all the differences of opinion that existed on this subject be fairly considered. was concluded some general legislative MR. BRADY said, he thought that no sufficient reason had been shown for not proceeding with the Bill; he believed that the Bill would greatly assist in the development of the Irish fisheries, and he therefore trusted it would be referred to a Select Committee. The approaching Convention with France had no special reference to Ireland and ought not to be made the ground for obstruction to the progress of the present measure. MR. HUNT said, it was his duty to call the attention of the House to certain provisions of the Bill with regard to the lending of public money. The Bill proposed that money should be advanced by the Public Works Commissioners in Ire land to enable persons to form oyster beds, MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE said, that havbuild piers and harbours, erect houses or ing been a member of the Commission resheds for the curing or drying of fish, ferred to, he could state that what was and also to mend or repair boats and most needed for the development of Irish vessels, to purchase fishing gear, or for fisheries was that some means should be such other purposes as the inspectors adopted to preserve peace between the might certify under their hands were ex different fishermen. That Report had led pedient. The money was to be advanced to the appointment of an International on the certificate of an inspector that Commission between France and Engthe security was satisfactory. He appre- land, of which he was also a member; they hended that in most cases the security had agreed upon the abolition of all rewould be personal security. He was ex-strictions beyond the three mile limit, and ceedingly anxious to see the Irish fisheries flourishing; but in assenting to the second reading of the Bill, he wished it distinctly to be understood that he did not consent to many of the clauses as they now stood, because he thought it was impossible to lend public money upon perishable articles such as boats and nets, upon what he supposed was merely personal security. MR. MONSELL said, that in the present state of the matter what was wanted was a general Bill for the three kingdoms, instead of one applying to Ireland_only; for as soon as the Convention with France to establish a few simple police regulations for the preservation of order among the fishermen. He hoped, therefore, that this Bill would be simply read a second time, but that further progress should be stayed till after the production of the Report of the International Committee, which might render it unnecessary to send the Bill to a Select Committee. He approved of the abolition of restrictions in this Bill, but not of loans to fishermen, and pointed out that it would be impossible to take anything like adequate security, seeing the very perishable nature of the commodity which formed the chief security that could be offered for the repayment of the loans. I tions on fishing, because it would let in the He approved, however, of advances being employment of very destructive engines. made for piers and harbours at fishing So far as the loan question was concerned, stations, because something like a valid security could be given. GENERAL DUNNE said, he should support the second reading, with a view to send the Bill before a Select Committee, because the Convention between France and England would by no means settle the many questions which it was the object of this Bill to settle. Moreover, there was a decided difference of opinion between the English and Irish Fishery Commissions as to the desirability of permitting trawling, the Irish Commission being totally opposed to it, while the Report of the Deep Sea Fisheries Commissioners was in favour of removing all restrictions upon trawling. With reference to what had been said against the proposal to assist the Irish fisheries with loans, he maintained that the Government were still retaining to their own use £5,000 every year to which Ireland was entitled, and which was given her for the very purpose of promoting her fisheries. COLONEL FRENCHI said, he would strongly support the proposition for the second reading with a view of referring the Bill to a Select Committee, where it might be examined by Members who were acquainted with the subject and with the country. He thought that a further consideration of the measure would show that there was nothing to justify the assertion that it proposed the lending of the public money upon perishable articles. What was proposed was that the money should be lent upon such security as the Commissioners should approve of, and this need not be either of a personal or perishable character. MR. SERJEANT BARRY thought that little disposition was shown to encourage the improvement and progress of Ireland, when a proposal such as this met with such an unfavourable reception; but when he saw one Secretary of the Treasury nodding over the way to the ex-Secretary of the Treasury, he felt sure that the scheme, whatever it might be, was doomed. Everything which had been said in the course of the debate showed that the Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee; but, at the same time, he would say that he advocated that course, not only on the ground advanced by other hon. Members, but because he did not agree that it would be expedient to do away with all restric he understood private loans were now advanced to fishermen on the security of the boats, nets, and gear, and that the results had been very successful. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHATTERTON) hoped that any hesitation which the Government might have shown to refer the Bill at present to a Select Committee, would not be imputed to any desire on their part to throw obstacles in the way of the development of the important branch of national industry to which it related. He could assure the House that the Government were very anxious to deal with a subject of this importance in a way that would be satisfactory to Ireland, and there was no objection whatever to refer it to a Select Committee; but they thought the best plan would be to wait until the Report of the International Commissioners, and the particulars of the Convention were before Parliament, when they would be able to say at once whether it was advisable to send the Bill to a Select Committee. MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE expressed his gratification at hearing that there would be no opposition to the second reading of the Bill, and would have agreed readily to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, but he thought the facts stated by the hon. Member for Reading and the Attorney General ought to be sufficient to induce his hon. Friend to abstain from pressing for a Select Committee till after Easter. MR. M'LAREN said, that any Bill of the character of that now before the House ought to extend to the whole of the United Kingdom. He must condemn the principle of the loans referred to in the Bill as contrary to sound political economy. COLONEL VANDELEUR said, he did not think that the Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee. It altered materially the Act passed only last Session, and it was rather early to legislate again on the subject. Motion agreed to. Bill read a second time, and committed for Wednesday next. WATERFORD COUNTY ELECTION. House informed, that the Committee had determined, That Edmund de la Poer, esquire, was duly elected a Knight of the Shire to serve in this present Parliament for the County of Waterford. And the said Determination was ordered to be entered in the Journals of this House. House further informed, that the Committee had agreed to the following Resolutions :-- That no case of general riot at the last Election was proved as would make the said Election altogether null and void. That no evidence was adduced before the Committee in regard to corrupt practices at the last Election. Report to lie upon the Table. Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee to be laid before this House.(Mr. Adair.) House adjourned at ten minutes HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, April 4, 1867. MINUTES.- PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading· Second Reading-Lyon King of Arms (Scotland)* Third Reading - Sugar Duties* (70), and passed. CRIMINAL LUNATICS BILL-(No. 55.) (The Earl of Belmore.) House in Committee; Bill reported, without Amendment, and to be read 3 To-morrow. House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, April 4, 1867. MINUTES.]-WAYS AND MEANS-considered in Ordered-Burials (Ireland).* * First Reading-Burials (Ireland) * [109]. Report-Canada Railway Loan* [99]; Policies * Considered as amended-Chester Courts [69 & SCHOOLS INQUIRY COMMISSION. QUESTION. MR. DILLWYN said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is probable that the Schools Inquiry Commissioners will Order of the Day for the House to be make their Report in the course of the put into Committee read. present year? COMMITTEE. THE EARL OF BELMORE, in moving that the House go into Committee on this Bill, said, he had been asked by a noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) whether a certain provision of the 5th clause did not interfere with the prerogative of the Crown. In reply, he begged to state that this prerogative was not questioned in any way by the Bill. Her Majesty ordered the confinement of criminal lunatics during pleasure under the 39 & 40 Geo. III. c. 94, before which time such lunatics were confined by order of the Court before which they appeared. THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY hoped that the clauses of this Bill would be brought under the consideration of the Irish Government, with a view to the introduction of a similar measure applicable to Ireland. MR. WALPOLE replied, that the Commissioners had their Report now under consideration, and they hoped to be able to complete it before the end of the Session. If, however, that hope were disappointed, the Report would certainly bet presented before another Session commenced. NAVY-ROYAL MARINE ARTILLERY QUESTION. MR. STONE said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether the Order in Council of the 21st March 1862, forming distinct lists of officers for the Royal Marine Artillery and Royal Marine Light Infantry respectively, and providing that after those lists shall have been formed no more inter |