the system was perfect and could not be improved. What had been the immediate effect of the Revised Code? All must agree that it had pressed very heavily on the resources of the managers. He had stated the other day, and he adhered to the calculation, that the schools were now receiving two-fifths less than they would have received under the old Code-namely, £622,000 instead of £1,000,000. Economy was a great advantage; but his right hon. Friend had himself said that if it could be shown that the schools had suffered by an excess of economy he should be the first to sanction a larger grant. His right hon. Friend had referred to certain defects as being inherent in the voluntary system.

MR. LOWE said, his remark was that the proper course would be to try whether that system could not be supplemented.

and the consequence was that the small schools laboured under difficulties unfelt by the larger ones. Unfortunately, too, financial difficulty meant imperfect teaching. Nobody had been more strenuous than his right hon. Friend in asserting the principle that a school depended upon the teacher, and that a certificated teacher was essential to a good school. He (Mr. Bruce) went even further than that, and maintained that a sufficient staff of masters was more especially essential in small schools. The difficulties encountered by small schools in reference to the subdivision of classes were very great indeed. Having but few masters it became necessary for them to group together children of very different attainments, and the consequence was that the progress made by the pupils was less than in the large schools. When he held office in connecMR. BRUCE said, his right hon. tion with the Committee of Council on Friend in his last speech on the subject Education, he felt that the small schools had warned the House against the patch- were suffering on account of their not posing-up of the system. It was, indeed, a sessing a sufficient amount of teaching defective system; but whose fault was power, and his noble Friend (Earl Granthat? Over and over again Parliament had ville) and himself accordingly tried to debeen asked by statesmen of the greatest vise means for remedying the evil. Witheminence to endow the country with a sys-out saying that the proposals which they tem which would be adequate to its wants, would have brought under the notice of Parand to supply it with a really national sys-liament were identical with those submitted tem of education. Earl Russell had asked Parliament to lay down the principle that every district should be obliged to supply itself with schools. A proposal had also been made by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir John Pakington) that such districts should be at liberty to levy rates to defray the cost of schools. The House, however, refused to adopt either principle, and the result was that the Committee of Council on Education were compelled to adopt the present system, which, he admitted, was a wasteful cne. He stated the other day that a small school ordinarily cost from 35s. to 45s. per head on the inhabitants of the place, whereas a large school could generally be conducted at a cost of between 188. and 25s. per head. Those figures showed plainly enough that, if possible, more assistance should be given to small schools than to large ones. But when the attempt was made to remedy the defects of the system, which was less generous to the poor than to the rich districts, it was met by the opposition of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Lowe). The practical difficulty was to define what were large and what were small schools. At present about 9s. per head was given to all scholars alike by the Government,

by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Corry), he must at least admit that they would have been similar in principle. In regard to this matter he felt bound to say that the Revised Code was partly to blame. Under the old Code, after the first fifty children a pupil-teacher might be employed for every forty children, and, being paid by the State, he always was employed. The result was that there was always a staff of teachers adequate to, and sometimes in excess of, the requirements of the school. Under the Revised Code it was not necessary to employ a second teacher until the number of children reached ninety, and the result was that the minimum number of teachers required to obtain the grant were almost invariably engaged, to the manifest injury of the school. No doubt great benefits had been derived from other parts of the system, such as the scheme of individual examinations; but those benefits had been diminished in consequence of there not being sufficient teaching power. In 1861 the number of pupil-teachers was about 16,000; but now, when there were about 350,000 more children in the schools than there were then, the number of teachers was reduced to about 11,000. Yet at this very

the fees, and the effect of raising the fees
would obviously be to keep the poorest
children away from the schools. He was
far from finding fault with the Minute of
his right hon. Friend (Mr. Corry), because
it was too liberal; indeed, as the right hon.
Gentleman had undertaken the task of
dealing with these defects in our system, he
wished he had been more liberal. Instead
of the 800,000 or 900,000 now at school
in England and Wales, there ought to be
2,000,000. A great many schools were
kept from receiving State assistance be-
cause they were unable to comply with the
pecuniary conditions required by the Go-
vernment. By the proposals of the Go-
vernment the grant to a school of 100
children could not exceed £8, and this
could not be earned except upon conditions
which, however wholesome in themselves,
were difficult to comply with. It was pro-
posed that an additional grant, which cer-
tainly would not have the effect of choking
and overwhelming the voluntary system,
should be made to all schools with an ave-
rage attendance of sixty-five children.
Even that additional grant, however, could
It was
not be made without conditions.
certainly right and desirable that every
child on leaving school should know read-
ing, writing, and arithmetic, and, indeed,
in his opinion, they ought also to know
something of geography, history, and other
subjects. He repeated the assertion he had
made on another occasion, that where these
subjects were taught best the lower branches
of instruction were also best taught. The
results desiderated could be attained only
by increasing the teaching staff; and vast
numbers of schools were at present unable
to employ certificated masters.
Minute had in view the double object of
increasing the teaching power in our schools
and of raising the standard of elementary
education.

time Parliament was engaged in consider-
ing measures to compel children to go to
school under the half-time system, the
effect of which would be to send hundreds |
of thousands to schools. Should it, then,
be to good or to bad schools? In his
judgment, it would be well to insist that
children employed on the half-time system
should be sent only to such schools as were
provided with certificated masters. When
they were about largely to increase the
number of schools there was no fear, in this
country at least, that the position of the
certificated masters would be injured by an
excess of supply. The evidence of the
representatives of the British and Foreign
Schools, before the Select Committees which
sat in 1865 and 1866, was in favour of cer-
tificated masters, and they said that the
reason why they were debarred from re-
ceiving assistance from the State was be-
cause they could not get a sufficient supply
of such masters. Such being the case, was
it not the duty of the State, which had un-
dertaken so much for the education of the
people, to provide also for the supply of
sufficient and competent masters? His
right hon. Friend had said that if any
schools were to suffer it was well that the
small schools should, because their small-
ness was owing to the denominational
system which multiplied schools unneces-
sarily. But surely his right hon. Friend
must be aware that the fact of a school
being small was generally owing to the
thinness of the population, and that the
small schools were ordinarily to be found
in the rural districts. Therefore, they
had a prima facie claim for a special
amount of assistance. But the right hon.
Gentleman said that the effect of giving
increased assistance would be not that
the small schools which required it would
receive it, but that some large schools
which were already more than sufficiently
paid would receive in most cases this
assistance, without wanting it. It was
undoubtedly true that large schools in
flourishing districts might often do without
State assistance at all; but that was the MR. HENLEY said, he had listened
result of the existing system, and Parlia- with great interest to what fell from the
ment had over and over again refused to right hon. Member (Mr. Lowe) in the at-
At tack he made on the Minute. Having
adopt a wiser and more elastic one.
the same time there were many large heard the answer, he could not say that
There
schools, for the maintenance of which the the attack had been sustained.
necessary funds could not be at all easily could be no doubt that when the Revised
raised. In the East of London, for instance, Code came into operation, there was a
and in the outskirts of all our populous tendency to a great redundancy of pupil-
towns, it would almost be impossible to teachers; but that tendency had been
obtain the requisite funds without raising checked. It would be interesting to learn

The new

Whether the measures proposed were sufficient or not, time would prove. But they were in the right direction, and had therefore his sympathy and support.

MR. PUGH, who rose amid cries for a division, said, he would be very short. He knew what time it was, and what hour it struck last

"Uteroque recusso

He

Insonuere cavæ gemitumque dedêre cavernæ." He wished to state briefly that he cordially supported the policy of the Government as indicated in this Minute, because it showed their desire to remove some of the difficulties of the rural districts, and to render assistance to their schools. had no wish to undermine the Revised Code, of which the principle was goodnamely, payment for results, and he did not believe the Government wished to undermine it. They were too wise in their generation; but it could not be denied that, while the old Code had ignored the rural districts, the Revised Code had, from the difficulty of the subject, or from other causes, continued the ignoramus. rural districts had long reminded him of a celebrated character of former times, of mournful celebrity, who said that he came asking but little, and getting less than little, and that sufficient for him; and he went on to say—and the parallel still held good-that his adversities, his antiquity, and the nobility of his nature taught him to be contented. The rural districts had not murmured, had not made themselves heard, had sounded no note of expostulation; but they thought that, in comparison with towns and other highly favoured regions, they were to a certain extent left

The

from figures, which must be accessible, | Minute evinced a disposition to act upon the number of certificated masters that rule, because it had been framed to meet would probably meet the wants of the the wants of the smaller schools only; but country; and the average yearly number if some of the larger schools reaped any of pupil-teachers it would take to supply advantage, he, for one, should not grudge that want. The matter was one calling them it. He hoped that those for whom for nicety of calculation, which, perhaps, it was primarily intended would be able to no one official person alone could make. take advantage of it. He would not venture to express an opinion as to whether a surplus was being created; but he was quite disposed to bow to the authority of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Corry), who had the best oppor tunities of forming a judgment; and both the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Bruce) seemed to consider that there was a falling off, and that something was required to bring the number up again. There could be no reasonable objection to that part of the Minute which related to the aiding of the smaller schools. He hailed it as a pleasing symptom, and as an evidence of an indisposition to be bound by cast-iron rule. It must be remembered that the Privy Council really aided the voluntary effort of the country; that there was no system apart from that effort; and that the Government simply afforded in grants a limited amount of public money, to supplement the still greater voluntary contributions of the public. Sometimes the Privy Council was disposed to look too closely into the circumstances of a case which might greatly need their aid, and which their system did not reach. He had never spoken on this subject without expressing his regret that the Privy Council did not think that it came within the scope of their duty to endeavour to reach many of those forlorn children which in all great centres of the population were left untouched and without any assistance at all. They were the most needy, and yet they never had anything. He was consoled, however, by the fact that the Privy Council, taking a step towards those whom hitherto they had not reached, were in the Therefore he would be sorry right path. to express an opinion hostile to what the Privy Council were doing, and would give his support to the Minute as far as it went. The subject was a difficult one, and no doubt involved an enormous amount of official trouble. It was a great advantage in a public office to lay down a strict rule, and not to deviate from it; but the consequence of that must be that while spending enormous sums in aid, those who most needed aid were not reached. The

out in the cold.

"Unconscious they in waste oblivion lie-
In all the world of busy life around
No thought of them."

And yet it would be unjust to say that
their case had not often engaged anxious
attention. After a diligent consideration
of the question for many years, he was
unable to point out any party, or any sec-
tion of any party in that House, from which
there had not at some time proceeded a
cordial admission that the Codes, however
beneficent in their action in other quarters,
had failed to benefit the rural districts.

"Quæ regio in terris nostri non plena laboris ?"

But he had a confidence in the wisdom | Southampton and Carlow, that the writ and justice of Parliament that induced him should issue in those cases where the seat to believe that for Parliament to know of was not prayed for. He could see no a grievance, to be conscious of its existence, difference between the cases where seats was, sooner or later, effectually to redress were prayed for and where they were not. it. He believed that the Government were By the present practice no writ for a reanxious to take a step in that direction, election could be issued at the commenceand he thanked them for their good inten- ment of a new Parliament until after fourtions. teen days of the meeting of the House. If on the death of Lord Palmerston Earl Russell had not been able to form a Ministry, and Earl Derby had been called upon to form a Government, the consequence would have been that the Members of the Government could not have taken their seats in the House until three weeks after the meeting of Parliament,' fourteen days being required to elapse before the writ could be moved to see whether petitions against their return would be presented. Last year, at the commencement of the first Session of the new Parliament, matters of great public interest came before the House-namely, the Cattle Plague and the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland. What would then have been the result if the Members of Her Majesty's Government having seats in the House had

MR. HADFIELD said, it would have been far better to have left the question of education in the hands of the people and intrusted it to their voluntary action, than to have deranged the taxation of the country by the making of grants in aid. Many of the young persons who had been trained as pupil-teachers at the expense of the State had turned clerks or adopted some other profitable occupation. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) had done himself great honour by his attempts to stem the flow of money from the Public Exchequer for the purpose of education. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) would take the sense of the House; and, sooner or later, it would be proved that he was right.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided :-Ayes 203; Noes 40 Majority 163.

Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

"That whenever a Member of this House shall

accept an Office of Profit under the Crown a Writ
for a new Election may issue, notwithstanding that
the time limited for presenting a Petition may not
have expired, or that a Petition praying for the
Seat may have been presented."

This was
a matter of considerable im-
portance as affecting the general interests
of the public. According to the practice
of the House, when a petition praying for
the seat was presented against any person
who had been appointed to an office of
profit under the Crown no writ could issue
until the petition had been decided. Ac-
cording to the old practice no writ could
issue if a petition was merely presented
against the return. But in 1852 it was
decided by the House, in the cases of

been petitioned against and the seats
prayed for? If therefore they balanced
any supposed personal advantage under the
present system against public convenience,
private feeling should give way to the
latter. That a seat was prayed for was
no ground for preventing a dissolution of
Parliament by Her Majesty's command;
why, then, should it be a reason for pre-
might be for the public advantage that a writ
venting the issue of a new writ when it
should be issued? The present practice
was also liable to abuse. On that ground
also it required to be altered. Any person
wishing to keep a Minister out of his seat
for the purpose of gratifying a malicious
feeling, might, at the last moment, present
a petition praying for the seat, and thereby
keep a Minister out of his place in the
House for some months. On the last day
for presenting petitions at the beginning of
the last Session, a Mr. Wellington Shegog
presented a petition against the return of
the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chichester
Fortescue), then Chief Secretary for Ire-
land, on the ground of intimidation, and
praying for the seat. Now, it appeared,
according to a Return which he moved for,
that from 1832 to 1866 not one person had
been seated on petition on the ground of
intimidation solely. The petition against
the right hon. Gentleman was presented on
the 20th February, and he was actually

kept out of the House until the 12th of term of five years' penal servitude. If, March, and might have been for a much when on a recent occasion he had put a longer period had not he (Sir Colman Question on the subject to the right hon. O'Loghlen) made a similar Motion to the Gentleman (Mr. Walpole) he had been able one then before the House, when the peti- to inform him that he was acquainted with tion was withdrawn. The petition against the circumstances of the case, and that the the return of Mr. Morris was presented on learned Judge had not proceeded beyond the same day, and was not disposed of the limits of his authority, he should have until May, and if the petition against the abstained from mentioning the matter a right hon. Gentleman had been tried he second time. It appeared from the acwould have been kept out of the House a counts which had been given in the newssimilar lengthened period. That, too, dur- papers that the two prisoners named had ing the discussion with reference to the immediately after sentence was pronounced Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act and upon them become exceedingly violent in other questions of importance relative to the dock, and had used most outrageous Ireland, at a time when his presence was language towards the Judge. From those most required. The only ground upon accounts, not only he himself, but many which the present practice could be de- others supposed that the additional sentence fended was some supposed interest the per- which had been passed upon them was a son might have in the seat he prayed for. punishment for their insubordinate conduct But that was not to be considered for a in Court. He had since learnt from the right moment in opposition to the public incon- hon. Gentleman, however, that the penalty venience it occasioned. He moved- of five years' penal servitude had been inflicted as part of the original sentence, and that it was perfectly within the discretion of the Judge to impose that increased penalty. Under those circumstances, disclaiming all intention of unnecessarily impugning the sentence of a Court of Justice, COLONEL FRENCH said, that the hon.or of making, directly or indirectly, a perand learned Gentleman had made out no sufficient case for altering the rules of the House on the subject to which he had called attention. That which might turn out to be the property of one person ought not to be given to another. In the very rare event of Cabinet Ministers not being able to take their seats for a fortnight or three weeks as had been described, the Secretary to the Treasury or some of the subordinate officers of the Government who did not vacate their seats might very well discharge the necessary business in their absence.

MR. SPEAKER said, that by the rules of the House the hon. and learned Member could not then make a Motion, inasmuch as an Amendment had already been moved and negatived on the Question that the Speaker leave the Chair.

THE CONVICTS BURTON AND HAY.

OBSERVATIONS.

sonal attack upon the learned Judge, than which nothing could be further from his views, he should not press the right hon. Gentleman for any further explanation on the subject.

MR. CRAUFURD said, that as a member of the Home Circuit, and an intimate friend of Mr. Baron Bramwell's for many years, he could not allow the subject to drop without making a few observations. He was glad to find that his hon. Friend had withdrawn the Question, and so far had made the amende honorable; but he must say it was rather a hasty course of proceeding in giving notice of the Question. Such questions brought forward without sufficient inquiry and information of the facts had the effect of shaking the authoMR. GILPIN said, he had given no-rity of the Judges of the land. [Mr. tice of his intention to call the attention of the House to the sentence passed by Mr. Baron Bramwell, at the recent Kingston Assizes, upon two prisoners, Burton and Hay, aged twenty-three and twenty-nine, who were indicted before him for burglary, and sentenced to eight and ten years' penal servitude, respectively, and who having been removed from the bar by the police were ordered to be brought back by the Judge, who thereupon sentenced them each to a further

GILPIN: No, no!] Such was their practical effect; and therefore it was desirable that they should be very cautious before they called attention to judicial sentences in that House. There was not a more upright or humane Judge on the Bench than Mr. Baron Bramwell, and he would be the last man to be induced from a spirit of anger or ill-judged feeling to aggravate a sentence on a fellow-creature. Such insinuations were worse than direct charges. He, however, accepted the hon. Gentle