this Bill it would have no operation upon derable sums recovered against railway Crown debts and we all know that very companies. The persons who recover those large sums are due from railway com- damages are sometimes the parties thempanies to the Crown in respect of taxa- selves who have been injured, and are tion and other charges on companies. It frequently the families of those who have comes to this, therefore-that for local suffered, and who are themselves reduced, rates and Crown debts you leave the it may be, to very great distress and indilocal and Imperial authorities perfectly gence consequent on the sudden withdrawal free to issue executions against rail of their means of support. They have reway companies; while you deprive the covered judgment, they are ready to issue creditors who supplied, it may be, the very execution, they have no means of obtaining materials with which the line was made or the money awarded except through the with which it carries on its business of all medium of an execution: and your Lordmeans of enforcing their claims. It may ships are asked to prevent this execution be said that the enforcement of their rights from issuing, at all events till the month is only postponed till August, and that of August next, when there may not be after August the 1st they will be able monies enough remaining. I will go to enforce their judgments. But when further. It may have been the fortune or August arrives it is quite possible that the misfortune of some of your Lordships to unfortunate creditors may be met with have had some of your land taken by railthis answer-"No doubt, sufficient pro-way companies. There is an erroneous perty was in existence at the time this Bill passed, but since then that property has been swept away in discharge of local rates and Imperial taxation." What, then, is the reason given why this Bill should be assented to? It is said that it would be of great public utility to save railway companies from executions being levied upon the rolling stock, lest the public traffic should be inconvenienced. That is to say, for a great public object you sacrifice the rights of the private creditor. You desire that a public object should be attained; and, in order to attain, you sacrifice not the rights of the public, who are to be benefited, but the rights of the private creditor, who receives no benefit. I ask your Lordships to observe some of the effects which this Bill will have in depriving creditors of the means of recover ing their debts. I take, for example, the very ordinary case of a railway leasing its line to another company on certain terms of yearly or quarterly payments. According to this measure, if the payments in respect of the leased line should be in arrear, the only means of recovering these will be absolutely withdrawn, though the lessees continue to receive the profits of the line. Again, what are your Lordships asked to do with regard to that large and important class of actions arising out of accidents upon railways, either in respeet of carelessness in the carriage of goods, or of accidents to limb, possibly to life? We are in the midst of the various assizes of the country, and in the annals of the different circuits we read every morning in the newspapers of consi impression abroad that a railway cannot take land without first paying for it; but your Lordships know that if a railway company desires to take any land it has only to obtain the certificate of any two surveyors as to its value, pay the sum named into court, and then take possession. When the real price of the land is ascertained, however, it generally amounts to twice or thrice the sum paid into court on the certificate of the surveyors, and for that additional price the landowner has to bring an action or obtain a decree in equity to obtain the purchase money. In the meantime the land has been taken, the railway made and earning money upon it; and yet when the landowner issues execution, your Lordships are asked to say that he shall not have his execution in satisfaction of his claim. There is, however, a still stronger case. There is too much reason to suppose that a great portion of the rolling stock at present possessed by the railways of the country is not paid for, but has been supplied on the credit of the company. I hope and believe that in most cases creditors are safe in giving credit; but your Lordships are asked to protect railway companies in the enjoyment of that stock and their earnings by its means, but to cut off from the unpaid creditor, whose rolling stock it is, and for which he has not been paid, the means by which he could recover his money. Who, I ask, is to be benefited by this proposed legislation? Are the shareholders? There may be a railway company so utterly insolvent that it may be a temporary accommodation to it to have its rolling stock protected from execu- going and then everybody would be able to tion; but the effect on a solvent com- pass over it and the railway company pany will be to go far to destroy its credit. would have nothing to do but to guard the My Lords, every railway company is highway. But this idea has vanished for obliged to have very large supplies of coal some years, and we have now got the and oil, it has to pay for labour, and great carrying trade of the country monosupply and replace rolling stock. At pre- polised by and centred in the railway comsent solvent railway companies have no panies. They have become in the progress difficulty in obtaining all they require on of years great commercial undertakings, credit, because those persons who supply and we have to consider whether we are prethese goods know perfectly well that when pared to sanction the continuance of these the time comes for payment and their great commercial undertakings on a footclaims are not met that they can at once ing different from all other commercial levy execution and compel payment; but undertakings of the country. What would if that right is taken away they will refuse be said if it were proposed with regard to to give credit on the ground that the de- any other trading undertaking that it benture-holders will sweep away the earn- should be carried on with impunity against ings and they will not consent to make execution for debts? That would be imsupplies except on the terms of being paid possible; and yet your Lordships cannot in ready money. This Bill, if passed, fail to observe that virtually this is the will have a most serious effect on all principle which is introduced into this Bill. the solvent railway companies in the I entreat your Lordships-I entreat the country. The Bill by the preamble no noble Lord who has introduced this Bill, doubt points to the benefit of deben- whose great wisdom and experience ou ture-holders; but if passed it will do questions of this kind no one more readily little good even to them, for it takes recognises than myself, to pause in the away from them the right, whatever it progress of this measure until we have may be, that at present exists, of issuing before us that which we are likely to have execution for the principal and interest before long-namely, a comprehensive overdue, and instead of their having a measure which can be considered with valuable security it will be considerably care and attention as a whole, and which deteriorated. It is said that the public I trust may, in its reception by the will be benefited; but I venture to think Legislature, have some beneficial effect in that the public are never benefited by any-settling this large and most difficult question. thing which is not an adherence to contract and to the rights acquired by the members of the public; and I cannot imagine how the public can be benefited if you materially alter the law of contracts. These are matters deserving of great consideration before we make further progress with the Bill. I have another objection against the Bill. This Bill appears to me to deal with nothing more than the merest fragment of one of the greatest and most important questions your Lordships can be called upon to consider. We have many millions invested in railway shares, and in debentures, and there is also a large floating unsecured railway debt. It is manifest to your Lordships from the progress of events that sooner or later-and I venture to think it cannot be done too soonit will be necessary to consider not merely the interests of one particular class, but the whole subject. The legislation with regard to railways has gone on for some time upon the old and antiquated idea that a railway is a public highway; and that all you had to do was to set the highway LORD REDESDALE said, he felt he had a most difficult task to perform in answering the searching argument of the noble and learned Lord who was so experienced a pleader, and knew so well how to express what he felt in the most complete and comprehensive manner. But, in the first place, he submitted that the chief object of the Bill was to allow the more comprehensive measure to proceed unimpeded. At the present moment nothing would impede that legislation more than a seizure of the rolling stock of any important railway by any one creditor or body of creditors. It could not be said that solvent railways would be damaged by it, because almost all the solvent railway companies in the kingdom desired it to pass. Even the most important companies, who, as far as regards income and expenditure, were perfectly solvent, but who found great difficulty in raising money to meet debentures and other liabilities, which were on the point of falling in, looked with great apprehension to the consequences of the possible seizure of himself in the hands of their Lordships, and if they desired that the Bill should be postponed or abandoned it would be useless for him to press it. their line or rolling stock. The answer to | proposal was a fair one as affecting the the many suppositious cases conceived by bulk of persons to whom railway compathe noble and learned Lord was the same. nies were indebted, and the rejection of The Bill was simply designed as a tempo- the measure would increase the depression rary measure to prevent an evil which was which now prevailed, and would prevent imminent as long as the whole class of companies from raising money on reasonrailway evils remained without any effec-able terms. He should, however, place tual remedy. Nor could it be said that the security of the creditors would be depreciated by the passing of this Bill; it was important above all things that the earnings of a company should be protected, and that the ability of the company to make profit should be continued. Without the protection which the Bill proposed to afford, the whole security of creditors might be rendered worthless by the stoppage of a line. Take the means away and the whole became worthless. If an unpaid landowner seized the line, it ceased to work and nothing was earned; and although that individual landowner might get satisfaction none of his fellow creditors could hope to do so :-and, in the same manner, the money required for the interest of the debenture-holders, the payment of wages, and other matters would be wanting. He most decidedly differed from the noble and learned Lord that railways were not public highways. He held that they were, and Parliament acted on that principle with regard to them, although, for the convenience of the public, they would be more beneficial to the public, by companies undertaking the working of them. It had been held that railways were granted for the public benefit, and that one class of creditors had not the power of stopping the line. Now, he thought that principle ought to be applied to every creditor as well as to one class; and Parliament, when it granted borrow ing powers to railways, intended that the lenders should have the best remedy for the recovery of their money, though it might have turned out in regard to the working of the Acts that those remedies did not belong to them. He thought the principle of the decision recently given by the noble and learned Lord, that debenture-holders had not the remedy of seizing the rolling stock, ought to be applied to all other classes of creditors, because, whatever might be the strict construction of many Acts, there was no doubt Parliament had intended that debenture-holders should have the same rights as other creditors. Although on abstract grounds it might appear unfair that creditors should be deprived of their present remedy, the THE DUKE OF MONTROSE thought the noble and learned Lord had conjured up a number of imaginary injuries which might befall creditors, but had not sufficiently considered the injury which a railway would sustain by the seizure of its rolling stock and the suspension of its traffic. The consequences to the entire body of creditors, whether shareholders, debenture-holders, or ordinary creditors, would be ruinous in the extreme. At the present moment there were so many railway companies under difficulties caused by the peculiar state of the law with regard to the different rights and claims of debenture-holders, that it was almost impossible for any railway, however solvent (except in the case of the very large railway companies which were paying good dividends), to renew their debentures. There were, in fact, many large railways which could not and did not know how to get money for that purpose. The present condition of the whole of the railway companies arose from the state of the moneymarket; and the emergency was such that the only means of relief was in passing a measure similar to that then before their Lordships. The railways had got the monopoly of the traffic of the country, and the inconvenience and injury to the public from a stoppage of the traffic would be enormous. This was only a temporary measure to prevent such a disastrous state of things arising before Parliament could pass a comprehensive Bill to put matters on a more satisfactory footing. The comprehensive measure which had been spoken of was yet in nubibus, and if it should get into Parliament it was impossible to say whether it would pass. If, however, it did, the present Bill would present no hindrance to it, and indeed he believed it was calculated to facilitate its passage. LORD CRANWORTH said, there was no doubt some force in the objections to allowing the rolling stock of a railway to be taken in execution; but his noble aud learned Friend had convinced him that, whatever course their Lordships might take, it ought not to be such as would lead the public to believe that for any purpose whatever their Lordships' House would initiate that which was a positive injustice to present creditors. There were persons who no doubt had sold rolling stock to railway companies upon the faith that they would get paid in the ordinary way, and for Parliament to say that they should not be paid between this time and the 1st of August, might bring ruin and bankruptcy upon many. Whatever inconveniences might arise he hoped, for the honour of their Lordships' House, they would refuse to sanction a measure of so unjust a character. THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAM said, he trusted the noble Lord would not proceed with the Bill, for it was doubtful whether it would obviate the inconveniences anticipated, and it might possibly act prejudicially both to solvent and to embarrassed companies. They might prevent by this Bill the seizure of rolling stock between this time and the 1st of August; but during that period debentures would require to be renewed; and it would be difficult to obtain an advance of money, even in the case of perfectly sound and solvent railway companies, when the nature of the security was in any possible doubt. If this Bill were passed, capitalists would naturally hesitate to advance money for the repayment of which the only practically available security had been placed in abeyance. If the whole law of debtor and creditor as regarded these large undertakings were placed in abeyance for some months, what security would capitalists have that it might not be altered again? The result, therefore, of the Bill would be to depreciate railway securities and to raise the rate of interest which lenders would require, and this might place in embarrassment many companies that were at present able to meet their obligations, by absorbing the margin which now existed between receipts and expenditure. Was the evil anticipated so great as to demand and justify so extreme a remedy and so doubtful a policy? He did not think the inconvenience to the public from the seizure of rolling stock could be so great as had been supposed, because the rolling stock was only available for use on railway lines, and adjoining lines having also rolling stock and the right to run over those lines would find it to be to their interest to prevent any stoppage of the traffic, when the traffic was worth carrying. There was hardly any case in which adjoining railways had not a powerful interest in the traffic and interests of the principal lines, and which would not suffer proportionally by the seizure of the rolling stock and the stoppage of the traffic. Believing, then, that the Bill if passed would be a cause of great difficulty and embarrassment to solvent as well as insolvent companies, he urged upon the noble Lord seriously to consider the propriety of postponing the further progress of the Bill until the measure on the general subject before the other House of Parliament had come before their Lordships. LORD REDESDALE said, after what had fallen from the noble Duke, and the general expression of opinion, he had no wish to press the Bill through Committee. He certainly, however, did not think that the measure was looked upon with an evil eye by railway companies generally. He should, therefore, assent to the withdrawal of the measure. EARL GREY thought that the noble Lord was perfectly right in withdrawing the Bill. He wished, however, to be informed when it was likely the measure of the Government would be before their Lordships' House. Although he disapproved of the present temporary Bill, lic nevertheless thought that the present state of the railway interests was such as to demand not only very grave but very prompt consideration. When they considered the many important questions to be disposed of by the other House of Parlia ment-considering that besides the financial business before them that House was also engaged in remodelling the Constitution-it appeared to him that there was very little hope of the general measure on this subject being speedily submitted to their Lordships. It was, he thought, to be regretted that that measure had not been initiated in their Lordships' House, when they would have had the valuable assistance of many noble and learned Lords who were thoroughly acquainted with the subject, and were great authorities upon it. Then the said Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn. INCREASE OF EPISCOPATE BILL [H.L.] A Bill for enabling Her Majesty and Her Main England, and for providing Assistance to jesty's Successors to erect Three additional Sees Bishops disabled by Age or other Infirmity-Was presented by The Lord LYTTELTON; read 1. (No. 51.) House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.]- NEW MEMBER SWORN - Right of Resolution [March 18] re he was unable to say whether the Indian Government contemplated any change in the existing arrangements with regard to it. HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT THE REPORTERS' GALLERY.-QUESTION. MR. BRADY said, he had a Question to put to the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Works on this subject which required a word of explanation. He understood there were some thirty seats in the Reporters' Gallery. He regretted that there was not a great number more. those seats were appropriated to the metropolitan morning papers, to the entire exclusion, he believed, of the weekly London papers and also of the English provincial papers, as well as of the whole Criminal Lunatics [67], and Irish and Scottish press, and to which it ported. Committee-Chester Courts [69]. CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS- QUESTION. All was therefore felt that great injury was done by that arrangement. He desired, therefore, to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Why it happens that, while accommodation is provided for the representatives of the London Press in the Reporters' Gallery, the representatives of the Irish and Scotch journals are excluded from all facilities for reporting the proceedings of the House? LORD HENRY THYNNE said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he proposes to call the attention of the Lord Chancellor to those magistrates who have been reported on by the Commissioners who lately sat on LORD JOHN MANNERS said, in reply, the corrupt boroughs, as being privy and that the Reporters' Gallery of that House assenting to corrupt practices, with a view was under the management of the Serjeantof their being struck off the several Com-at-Arms, and he had every reason to be. missions of the Peace to which they may belong? MR. WALPOLE, in reply, said, he was not acquainted with the facts of the case to which the noble Lord's Question alluded. INDIA-BANKS OF BOMBAY AND BENGAL-QUESTION. lieve that officer paid every attention to the comfort and convenience of the gentlemen who had duties to discharge there. It was true the accommodation there was very limited; but the desire was that the ar rangements which were made should be such as would be most conducive to the convenience of all organs of public opinion, whether they were printed in London, in MR. J. PEEL said, he would beg to the Provinces, or in Ireland, or Scotland. ask the Secretary of State for India, And although, owing to the confined space, Whether his attention has been directed it was impossible to accommodate more to a report which has been published in than the reporters of the London press, the newspapers of the intended amalgama- yet it was well known that arrangements tion of the Banks of Bombay and Bengal: existed by which certain representatives of and, whether any change is contemplated the London morning journals also acted i in the arrangements now existing between for the leading newspapers of Dublin, the Indian Government and those establish- Glasgow, and Edinburgh. In addition to that, there were telegraphic summaries of the debates sent to such of the provincial papers that required them. The provincial journals were thus enabled to publish, simultaneousely with the London papers, ample reports of what took place in that House. ments? SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, in reply, said, his attention had been called to a short paragraph which appeared in the City Article of one of the newspapers some time ago to that effect, but the Government had received no official communication from India on the subject; and MR. BRADY said, he would appeal to |