pation of Luxembourg by Belgium. This is a matter of the deepest and most pressing moment to the peace of Europe. If the attempts of France are in any way encouraged or connived at by the Government of this country, it will lead to serious complications into which we shall most undoubtedly be drawn. I trust that the Government of Her Majesty have endeavoured to impress upon the Governments of Holland and France the inexpediency and the danger of pressing forward questions of this kind, knowing, as they must do, that Prussia, with all its power, and with one of the most capable Ministers that ever guided the destinies of a people at its head, will resent that irruption into a pure German population. Of course, this country has no direct interest in trifling territorial adjustment. We only want to see France great in the power of her arts and commerce. But it is this continuous agitation-this disregard of treaties, which is the primary cause of the uneasiness that exists in Europe. I hope that the reply of the noble Lord has been such as to enhance the position and influence of this country abroad. LORD STANLEY: Although this question of Luxembourg may be in its ultimate result one of great importance; and although the mere stirring of it up during the last ten days has agitated Europe in no inconsiderable degree, yet the facts, which the right hon. Gentleman has accurately stated, lie in a very narrow compass. And, although he has made some remarks to which I cannot agree, and said one or two things which I regret were said, still I am glad he has given me the opportunity of stating, so far as I am able, what has passed in this matter. Every one knows that the French Government have desired to possess this territory of Luxembourg. It is also pretty generally known that the King of Holland was ready to part, on certain conditions, with the interest he had in it. I must remind the House that this is a matter for the King of Holland rather than for the Dutch Government. The territory is detached from that Government, and it is only connected with Holland by the tie of a common Sovereign. I am bound to say, in the interest of truth, that, so far as I am aware, the Dutch Government and the Dutch people do not regard this outlying territory as of any importance to them, or as adding to the strength, security, and prosperity of their country. But it is not the fact that the King of Holland was ever ready to part with this territory unconditionally. As I am informed there were various stipulations which he proposed, and on which he insisted as indispensable to the transfer, if it took place. One of them was, that he should receive certain compensation; but whether that compensation was intended to take a direct pecuniary form I have no information. Another stipulation which I feel bound to mention after the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman, on which the King of Holland insisted, was, that the wishes of the people of Luxembourg should be consulted. The third, and, for practical purposes, the most important of all, was, that the consent of the Great Powers should be obtained-and especially the consent of Prussia. Now, Sir, Prussia, as the House is aware, possesses and claims to possess by special treaty the right of garrison in the fortress of Luxembourg; and both on that account and as a neighbour-and particularly as the head of the Confederated States of Germany Prussia has a deeper and closer interest in this matter than any other European Power. When the matter came to the knowledge of the Prussian Government a communication was made by it to the other Powers which signed the Treaty of April, 1839. That treaty regulates the relations of Belgium and Holland, and guarantees Luxembourg to the King of Holland. One of these communications was addressed to Baron Beust, and another to Her Majesty's Government; and the latter was received by me on Sunday last. The right hon. Gentleman speaks of this negotiation as of an old date. [Sir ROBERT PEEL: Last October.] I do not know what may have passed in secret; but all I can say is that no information reached Her Majesty's Government as to the transfer being in contemplation until about ten days ago. The Questions that were put to me by the Prussian Government were in substance two. One was, whether the British Government would endeavour to dissuade the King of Holland from going on with the negotiations supposed to be in progress; and the other was, what construction was put by the British Government upon the guarantee contained in the Treaty of 1839. As to the second of these Questions, I could not undertake to give a definite reply at once, for this reason-that it was obviously very desirable, if any representation or action were required to be taken on the Treaty of 1839, that such people of Luxembourg offered no objection, representation should not be the act of and if Prussia-the Power most interested any single Power, but should be made in in the proposal-gave her consent, it cannot concert with the other Powers by whom be said that it was the duty of the British that treaty was signed, and who equally Government to interpose. That is the with us were responsible. But I did not answer I gave provisionally on the part conceal a doubt (and I might use a stronger of Her Majesty's Government. There was word) which existed in my mind as to whe- no time for more detailed consideration, ther the guarantee given by that Treaty and there was no need for further exof 1839 was one of a character to apply to pression of opinion on my part. As the the present case. And for this reason. House knows, yesterday information was That guarantee was undoubtedly intend- received, not indeed at the time of an ed to defend the interest of the King official or of an absolutely certain character, of Holland in his capacity of Grand but which, nevertheless, bore marks of auDuke of Luxembourg, and to maintain thenticity, and which I believed to be true, the integrity of the territory. But, of stating that the cession of Luxembourg course, if the King of Holland voluntarily had been relinquished by the King of surrendered his interest in Luxembourg, Holland. I have had that statement conand was a consenting party to the arrange- firmed by the representative of the King ments made, his interest as contemplated of the Netherlands, who called upon me by the guarantee ceased to be in question, this afternoon and authorized me to make and the matter which remained was a that statement as coming from his Governtotally different one, between France on the ment. I think that is the end of the one hand and Germany on the other. Now, question as far as Holland is concerned. neither by that treaty nor at any other Whether or not it will put a final end to time were we pledged to defend the in- other questions which may arise out of it is tegrity of the German Empire. Germany impossible to say. If, however, they should united, as she is now, and I am glad that be revived, they will be revived in a different she is so-united to an extent which has form and under entirely different circumnever before occurred, is perfectly capable stances. It was in the late case supposed of providing for her own defence. I do not that the King of Holland was a consenting think it would be easy to argue, although party to the transfer. That state of things the right hon. Baronet's reasoning seems is now entirely altered, and I do not, of to point in that direction, that it is the course, pretend to say what will arise out duty of England to interfere to prevent a of the new state of things which has arisen transaction which might result in some in consequence of his refusal. I have now small aggrandizement on the part of related all the material facts, and I have France, when the Government and the done so more in detail than I otherwise people of this country have seen with entire should have done because every communiacquiescence, and even, I believe, with cation which I have received on the subject approval, the enormous aggrandizement having been confidential, I am unable to which has accrued to Germany, or rather lay the documents upon the table. But to Prussia, as the head of the German the House may rely upon it that I have States, within the last twelve months as given the whole facts of the case as they the result of the late war. As regards the came before me. Further consideration has question whether we should dissuade the confirmed me in the conviction-a convicKing of Holland from proceeding with this tion in which the House will, I think, share negotiation, my answer was that we had been informed and subsequent intelligence has verified the presumption on which I acted that the consent of the King of Holland was from the first made conditional on the consent of Prussia and on that of the people of Luxembourg. What may be the feeling of the people of Luxembourg I cannot undertake to say. But from the first I had a strong idea that the consent of Prussia would never be obtained. If these conditions were not fulfilled, the transaction fell to the ground. If the that we were right in declining to involve ourselves further in a transaction which might be, and still may be, productive of very serious consequences. No interest of ours was either directly or indirectly involved, and we stood absolutely free and unfettered. Sir, that is the whole case as far as it has gone. Something was said by the right hon. Baronet as to the security of Belgium. The security of Belgium is an entirely different matter. Upon that question we are involved in a guarantee solemnly and deliberately entered into. But the question as to the security of Belgium did not in the slightest degree arise during the course of the present transactions. I dealt with the subject as it arose, and I do not think that it is worth our while to go out of our way to anticipate difficulties which have not arisen and which probably never will arise. SIR ROBERT PEEL: The noble Lord has omitted to answer one Question I put. I asked whether the relinquishment of the cession of Luxembourg was in any way owing to the representations of Her Majesty's Government. The noble Lord said that the Powers had agreed to make some joint representation. [Lord STANLEY: No, no!] Pardon me. Russia has made a representation to the Government of France. I wish to know from the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government have made any representation to France or to Holland, with a view of inducing either or both of those Powers to relinquish this projected cession? LORD STANLEY: I thought I had already answered that Question. With regard to any Russian protest against the transaction in question, I heard of it for the first time from the right hon. Baronet. No information has reached the Foreign Office of any action of that kind having been taken by the Russian Government. As to the abandonment of the cession of this province being due to any remonstrance on the part of the British Government, I thought I had stated that considering the cession proposed by the King of Holland was conditional, both upon the consent of the people of Luxembourg and of Prussia, and considering from the first that that consent on the part of Prussia was not given, and did not seem likely to be given, I did not feel myself called upon to make any remonstrance on the part of the British Government. The abandonment, therefore, of the project, if it be abandoned, is certainly not due to any action on the part of Her Majesty's Go vernment. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. MR. CORRY moved the second reading of this Bill. He said, that the Government proposed that it should be considered in Committee on Monday, when the clause relating to flogging would be amended, so as to agree with the Bill relating to the army. The House would then be asked to pass the Bill through all its stages, that it might be disposed of before Easter. According to the Returns received that morning, there had, in the last year, been only two cases of corporal punishment amongst the 9,000 Marines serving on shore in England. MR. OTWAY said, he should offer no objection at the present stage, because he understood that clauses to which he objected were to be amended in Committee. Motion agreed to. for Monday next. FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON moved the second reading of this Bill. He disclaimed all responsibility on the part of the Government in respect of the fortifications referred to by the Bill. They had been projected entirely by the late Government, and it now became the duty of Ministers to see that the works were not left in an been made in the science of defence had unfinished state. The progress which had caused some additional and unforeseen expense to be incurred. No one, for instance, could have anticipated the neceswith iron, which was now considered adsity for plating the works at Portsmouth visable. £500,000 was required for this plating, and he was sorry to add that the of £100,000. Some purchases of land Estimates had been exceeded by upwards also were necessary. In order to cover this extra expenditure of nearly £700,000, it was proposed to abandon works at Chatham to the extent of £500,000, and Committee deferred till Monday next. at the central arsenal at Cannock Chase MARINE MUTINY BILL. SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Corry.) to the extent of £150,000. The Bill did not ask for any fresh money, but simply authorized the re-appropriation of this money, and he hoped there would be no unnecessary delay in passing it. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Sir John Pakington.) MR. CHILDERS said, he hoped the Motion would not be pressed. The right hon. Gentleman had very fairly described the Bill; but his description showed that it dealt with matters of great importance, which demanded more attention than could be devoted to them at five minutes to one o'clock. MR. HUNT said, the only principle involved in the Bill was as to whether the money which it had been already agreed to raise for certain fortifications should be distributed in a different manner from what was originally intended. The money had already been voted. It was only now proposed to re-distribute it. That question could be easily decided, and he hoped the House would understand how exceedingly inconvenient it would be if the Bill were not passed before Easter. SIR MORTON PETO moved the adjournment of the debate. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, that if any discussion were desired it might take place in Committee. It was impossible for the Government to proceed with the works if the Bill were not passed. The Government inherited this Bill from their predecessors. MR. CHILDERS said, that although the Government might have inherited the works from their predecessors, they had not inherited the changes, and it was the new proposals which the House wished to discuss. He did not see how the Bill could be passed before Easter. Motion agreed to. THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My Lords, my noble Friend the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Clanricarde) having given notice of his intention to call the attention of your Lordships to the case of the Tornado, I would ask him whether it would not be better, if it should not be inconvenient to himself and to the House, to postpone the discussion of that question until after the Easter recess. My reason for offering this suggestion is that, as your Lordships are aware, additional Papers with respect to our relations with Spain, which have recently been laid upon the table, show that those relations have assumed a more serious and a more complicated character than that which they had previously presented. I allude, of course, to the papers with respect to the case of the Victoria, which appears to me to be of infinitely more importance than those which relate to the Tornado. In that case a British sailing vessel was seized by the Spanish authorities some fourteen or fifteen miles from the coast, and was then taken to Cadiz and ordered to be there broken up. Now, whatever may be said-and there may perhaps be arguments advanced upon both sides-with regard to the Tornado, it appears to Her Majesty's Government that there can be no palliation or excuse for what has been done with reference to the Victoria. It was a more than common outrage, because it was an outrage to a British vessel upon the high seas; and if such an insult was offered to the British flag the fact would be one of so serious a character that, as your Lordships will see from the papers, Her Majesty's Government have thought it necessary to take the gravest notice of it. No answer has as yet been received from the Spanish Government to the despatch of Lord Stanley upon the subject. In that despatch Lord Stanley has asked, as your Lordships must be aware, for compensation to the Monday next. full amount for the loss sustained by the Debate adjourned till Monday next. ARREST FOR DEBT (IRELAND) BILL. abolish Arrest for Debt on Mesne and Final Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 110.] EDUCATION OF THE POOR BILL. On Motion of Mr. BRUCE, Bill to provide for the Education of the poorer classes in England and Wales, ordered to be brought in by Mr. BRUCE, Mr. WILLIAM EDWARD FORSTER, and Mr. ALGER NON EGERTON. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 111.] House adjourned at a quarter owners of the vessel, and for an apology to happy to find that my noble Friend the this country for the outrage offered to our noble Marquess has thought it consistent flag. But as that demand has not yet been with his duty to comply with the request answered, I should be glad if the noble addressed to him by the noble Earl oppoMarquess would not now raise that other site (the Earl of Malmesbury); and I should question of the Tornado, to which he has be extremely glad if the result of the disgiven notice that he proposes to direct cussion which is to take place after the your Lordships' attention. I must add Easter recess should be to clear the owners that when I remember the proverbial sense of the Tornado of the suspicion that now of honour which the Spaniards feel with attaches to them. There are so many respect to their own national rights, and facilities in this country for evading the when I bear in mind that if such an out- law, and so many persons entertain so rage had been committed on a Spanish little scruple in resorting to those evasions, vessel in the Channel, a cry of indignant that I think the opinion with respect to remonstrance would have been raised from their proceedings cannot be too strongly Cadiz to the Pyrenees, I am convinced that expressed, and that it cannot be too clearly the Spanish Government, when they take known that those who, for their own prithe facts into their consideration, will not vate gain, disregard the Queen's proclamahesitate to afford that compensation and tion, and violate the neutrality of this that apology which we have demanded, country in order to aid and abet one foreign and will not throw the shield of their pro- Power at war with another, but with both of tection over the subordinate officers who which England is at peace, do so at their have been engaged in this transaction. own risk of being treated as belligerents With this belief and, indeed, I may by the State against which they are actalmost say with this conviction-I trust ing; and that as they thereby forfeit all that after the Easter recess we shall be claim to the protection of their own Goable to state that the affair has assumed a vernment, so assuredly they will not receive less serious and less menacing aspect; it except in as far as may be necessary for while I should be afraid that if the noble the vindication of the principles of strict Marquess were to raise any discussion at justice and of International Law. I will this moment in your Lordships' House, it not at this moment and without any diswould rather be prejudicial than beneficial cussion of the question, affirm that the to the negotiations which are taking place. owners of the Tornado are in this position; THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE : but I think that if I were to enter into Of course, when my noble Friend, speak- the case I should be able to show that ing as a Minister of the Crown, says that great suspicion attaches to that vessel. it would be better upon public grounds not With regard to the other case-the case now to enter into a discussion with respect of the Victoria-which is of a far graver to our relations with Spain, I cannot re- and more serious character, I do not befuse to accede to his request for postpone-lieve that there has existed any intentional ment. At the same time, I wish it to be clearly understood that I do so under protest that those British subjects who are concerned in the question which I wish to bring before your Lordships shall not be made to suffer by reason of that postponement. If their case is made out, as I believe it eventually will be, and the Spanish Government shall find that its officers have been in the wrong, I claim that every British seaman who has been wronged, and the owners of the British ship which has been detained, shall be indemnified up to the last hour and to the full extent of the injury inflicted upon them. I can only express my satisfaction at the news we have all heard to day-namely, that the Mediterranean fleet has received orders to move from Malta. THE EARL OF CLARENDON: I am hostility towards this country on the part of the Spanish Government. There seems no reason for believing it, for I have never known that Government to act in a hostile manner towards this country; and I have no doubt therefore that when the facts of the case become known to them, the satisfaction which we are entitled to claim will not be withheld. But, at the same time, I cannot help expressing my regret that the peremptory despatch written by my noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office-a despatch which is, I think, perfectly justified by the circumstances of the case-I cannot help expressing my regret that as soon as that despatch was written it should have been published. Knowing as I do the susceptibility of the Spanish people, and the spirit by which they are animated, I am |