trust the Constitution of this country. I am not to-night arguing in favour of principles which it is well-known I hold. I am treading on ground which I occupy in common with almost every Gentleman whom I see around me. If you proceed in this way, can you, I ask, hope for anything but disgrace and failure? Not necessarily failure in passing this Bill-but failure worse than any interregnum or difficulty which may ensue as a consequence of its not passing? I hope, then, that others will follow the example of the hon. Member (Mr. Osborne), and that we shall have a little discussion on this question. The public will then know that the Conservative party have-whatever the right hon. Baronet (Sir Stafford Northcote) may say deem that a reason why he should give it to him, although everybody else would be inclined to hold the contrary opinion. That is the Conservative principle of this Bill. The only thing to ascertain is, not whether a man possesses property or intelligence, but simply whether he lives in a house and is earnestly desirous of obtaining the franchise. I know of no more unsound or more unsafe principle. It is easy to create a desire where it does not exist, and to take away the condition, so that the desire of a person for the franchise will become the desire of others who wish to corrupt him, and the door will be opened to every species of evil. The principles involved in this Bill, however, would seem to be to some hon. Gentlemen so plainly and manifestly sound that they do not look upon-advanced beyond those who sit on these them as worthy of preliminary discussion. The second reading goes as a matter of course, and the Committee follows without even that consideration which awaits the most ordinary measures which are brought under our notice. I think we are under a great obligation to the hon. Member (Mr. Osborne) for the courage he has displayed this evening in resisting this mode of proceeding. He has, in my opinion, done a public service by the way in which he has drawn attention to the matter. The position in which we find ourselves is one which no man, whatever his political opinions, who loves his country or who reveres her Constitution can look upon without dread. We are about to go into Committee upon a Bill in reference to which the only point upon which we are agreed is that in its present shape it ought not to pass. We are going into Committee, too, under the Leadership of a Gentleman who does not command a majority of the House or the unanimous support of his own party. In short, entering without pilot, chart, or compass into this vast and stormy ocean of Reform. The grounds on which I objected, and successfully objected, to the Resolutions of the right hon. Gentleman-namely, that they took the question out of the hands of the Government and placed it in the hands of the House apply now. As things are at present, the Government have not the direction of their own measure. The House is to be called upon to frame a Bill, and the House knows nothing except that the Leader, neither on one side or the other, seems to have any command over his own party. To this lottery, to this chance-medley, it is that we are about to VOL. CLXXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.] - Benches in bidding for the support of Democracy. Not so much by what they actually do as by that to which they open the door, and which must be the inevitable consequence of the course they are pursuing. It astonishes me to see a deputation of gentlemen coming up from the country to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Conservative measure he has introduced, when they must know thatbut for the small matter of personal payment of rates-it means household suffrage pure and simple. What a frail bulwark to rely upon to protect the Constitution of this country against the inroads of democracy. If it could be made clear to the public how this question stands; if it could be shown to them that the Conservative leaders are drawing those who have not hitherto been desirous of change into the support of a measure which places the Liberal party in the dilemma of assenting to a course which they know to be wrong and pernicious, rather than allow themselves to be beaten in the race for popular favour; much good would be accomplished. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite are about to carry out a policy which has not the slightest connection with that which they last year avowed and acknowledged. I should be sorry to be concerned in anything of the kind. It was not because the £7 rental franchise of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone) did not, in our opinion, go low enough, that I and others on this side of the House lent our aid to displace the Government. It was because we looked upon it as a dangerous and hazardous experiment. That was the language which was held in private by those very Gentlemen who now seem to think that the late Government 2 U did not go far enough, who do away with the figure altogether, and repose on the principle of a rating franchise. Never was there tergiversation so complete as that which is now displayed by those who last year acted as I have said, and who yet have to-night the assurance to come forward and hold such language as that to which we have listened. Such conduct may fail or not; it may lead to the retention or the loss of office; but it merits alike the contempt of all honest men and the execration of posterity. suffrage had always been accompanied with the payment of local rates. The voter by the old "scot and lot"-which was equivalent to household suffrage-had to pay parish or church rates. Their ancestors knew very little of household suffrage pure and simple. Therefore, when household suffrage was proposed as one of the leading principles of a new Reform Bill, every one acquainted with the subject said it must be accompanied with the payment of rates of one kind or another. Again, potwallopers-every man who boiled his own MR. MONTAGU CHAMBERS said, pot, or was able to find food and firing that notwithstanding his admiration for in ancient times were no more nor the ability of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe), he could not help saying that his object appeared to be to obstruct and impede all attempts at Reform. In every speech made by the right hon. Gentleman there was to be detected a considerable amount of false logic. What did the right hon. Gentleman mean by those speeches ? Last year, when the late Government attempted to bring in a Reform Bill, the right hon. Gentleman did all he could to oppose and defeat it. In the present year, when the succeeding Government endeavoured to pass a measure of Reform, the right hon. Gentleman again met it with cavilling objections. The right hon. Gentleman charged the Members of the present Government with enunciating a principle which they last year repudiated. He (Mr. Montagu Chambers) did not care whether that were so or not. The community did not care. They wanted a Reform Bill, and it was of no importance to them whether it came from the present or any other Government. His notion was that they might get it now. If the House should go into Committee upon this Bill he was determined to act upon this principle-to accept of everything that was favourable to a settlement of this question of Reform; but he was not so sanguine as to imagine that this measure would be a final settlement. Therefore, his notion was that they should get as much as they could, and if it did not satisfy the community, they could go farther until they were satisfied. That, no doubt, was an unpopular statement for some hon. Members, but the impression out of doors was that complete Reform could only be accomplished by degrees. Lawyers and politicians appeared to labour under a mistake with regard to what was the meaning of household suffrage. He found from historical and legal research that household less than lodgers, and they had votes. These were old principles, and they were going back to them. He himself was in favour of a rental franchise, and whether by this Bill or not, the time would come when they must adopt it. The arguments on both sides tended to that, and they already showed the difficulties and inconsistencies that must arise in endeavouring to establish a fair franchise by rating and payment of rates. His test of fitness would be a year's residence and a year's payment of rent. The compound-householder pays the rates of his house in the shape of rent, and it mattered not whether they were paid by him or his landlord. His landlord was his rate collector. The tenant who resided in a house and paid his rates through his landlord was a far more respectable and better man than the man who would have his rates paid for him by an election agent. That was the evil of this Bill. It was the interest of all true Reformers to assist the Chancellor of the Exchequer in carrying a real Reform Bill; but the proposed manner of putting a man on the register was a complicated piece of business, and could not be approved of. They should test a man by rental and occupation. Before many years they would have to adopt residential household suffrage, the payment of rent being the test of a man's respectability, and if the Government would adopt rental in Committee instead of rating, a large number of true Reformers would support them. He cared not which side produced a Reform Bill. If it was a good Bill he and many others on the opposition side would support it. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) was sometimes a good logician and at other times a bad one; but, unfortunately, his logic dazzled a great many who did not understand it, and there was hardly one Mem SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY said, he would consent to postpone the second reading of the Bill till after the Easter recess. Second reading deferred till Thursday 2nd May. ber in that House who really knew what | tion and Bribery at Elections first on the the right hon. Gentleman meant by the Notice Paper? ["Order!"] speech he had just delivered. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman last year which had been so much admired was a beautiful sort of University exercise; but there was not a Member in the House who could say what it meant. The Conservative party cheered the right hon. Gentleman last Session, believing that he was assisting them; but he had now turned round, and had said all he could against them. He (Mr. Montagu Chambers) should support the Motion for going into Committee. He was well satisfied at the result IRELAND-LIMERICK HARBOUR, COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, Chair." of the consultation that occurred before they met that evening. At the end of COLONEL FRENCH said, he wished to the proposed Instruction there was something very equivocal to true Reformers. ask for some explanation of the intentions They thought it restrictive. They had of the Government. Money had been lent carried a point very useful as an Instruc- upon insufficient security. Owing to the tion, and he hoped when they went into system of keeping accounts in the GovernCommittee on it they would carry a Re-ment Departments, Irishmen were repreform Bill that would be suitable to the wants of the country. Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned, "-(Mr. Gorst,) put, and negatived. Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to. Bill considered in Committee. MR. GOSCHEN said, he understood it was not intended by the Government to proceed with the Bill in Committee tonight? MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, that was the understanding. He moved that the Chairman report Progress, and ask leave to sit again on Thursday next. House resumed. sented as debtors to the extent of £2,000,000, though they had honestly met such liabilities as were fairly chargeable to them. MR. HUNT said, the object of the measure he sought leave to introduce was to compound a debt now due from the Limerick Harbour Trustees to the Treasury. The Government were in the position of mortgagees in possession for a debt of £173,000 and interest £56,000, amounting together to £230,000, a burden which completely weighed down the resources of the port, and rendered them incapable of development. The late Government had proposed conditions which the Harbour Commissioners found it impossible to comply with. In the Bill which he would ask leave to introduce provision would be made to com Committee report Progress, to sit again pound a debt for an annuity extending upon Thursday. PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL. (Sir Graham Montgomery, Mr. Secretary Walpole, Mr. Hunt.) [BILL 89.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. LORD ELCHO said, he would suggest that, in deference to the wishes and convenience of the Scotch Members who had not expected the measure would come on that evening, the second reading should be deferred till after the Easter holydays. He also desired to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he proposed on Thursday to put the Committee of the Reform Bill or the Bill for the Suppression of Corrup over a long period. Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury to compound the Public Debt and Interest due by the Limerick Harbour Commissioners, and to make arrangements for the payment of the amount for which such Debt is to be compounded, and for the transfer of Wellesley Bridge, in the City of Limerick, to the Commissioners of Public House resumed. Resolution to be reported To-morrow. PUBLIC BUSINESS. QUESTION. Gentlemen. With respect to the questions alluded to, both are in a peculiar position. As regards the measure against LORD ELCHO: I wish to ask the Chan- bribery and corruption my personal encellor of the Exchequer which he intends gagement, I may say my personal honour, to take first on Thursday, the Committee is pledged to its being brought forward on the Representation of the People Bill, before the holydays. It is a real, bonâ or the Bill of which he has given notice fide measure, prepared with great care, for dealing with bribery and corruption at and I hope the House will receive it with elections. I am induced to put this Ques- favour, though the subject with which it tion because I believe many hon. Gentle- deals requires considerable consideration. men feel that unless there is ground for I might ask leave to introduce that Bill supposing some progress will be made with to-morrow; but, if I do so, of course I the Representation Bill on Thursday it could not make a statement on it till the would be hardly worth while to take the second reading. If I introduce it toCommittee on it the day before the adjourn-morrow and fix the second reading for ment for the holydays. I hope it will not Thursday, we could put down the Combe imagined that, individually, I wish to mittee for the Representation of the People throw the slightest obstacle in the way of Bill for the same day, and the House could proceeding in Committee with the Repre- decide how they would proceed. As to sentation Bill. So far from that, if I had whether the question of bribery and corbeen called upon to record my vote to-ruption at elections is one which requires night, I should have given it for going and deserves their attention on Thursday into Committee, because I think it is ex- it will be for them to decide. We must tremely desirable that this Reform Question go into Committee on the Reform Bill on should be settled in the present Session. the second Government day the House The arrangements of hon. Members during meets after Easter. It would be inconthe holydays depend upon the time of the venient for us to go into a subject of very adjournment of the House. We should be commanding interest on the first day. all willing to give up our holydays, if it Moreover, I have promised that day to were necessary to do so, in order to settle the Irish Members for the discussion of the question; still, unless it is supposed their Bill, and of course I must keep that that we could make bond fide progress on promise. At present, I would suggest to Thursday, I would suggest to the right the House that the best mode of procedure hon. Gentleman whether it might not be would be to place the second reading of better to defer proceeding in Committee the Bribery and Corruption Bill first on till after Easter. There is one other argu- the Paper on Thursday, and if it meets ment which I might use. A noble Friend with no opposition, the House may then of mine (Earl Grosvenor), for a reason in go into Committee on the Representation which every one sympathizes, is prevented of the People Bill. If, however, they from being present, and leave of absence should think it inconvenient to enter into for a week has been granted to him. I the discussion of the latter Bill-and we believe I am not wrong in saying that one should remember that the first clause is of the most important, if not the most the most important-it will be in their important Amendment to be proposed in power to express that opinion, and we Committee is that of my noble Friend, should then fix it for consideration in which stands early in the Paper. It Committee on the 2nd of May. The House would therefore, I think, meet his con- will consider these matters; but at present venience, as well as that of the House I feel bound to move on Thursday the generally, if the Committee were postponed second reading of the Bribery and Cortill after the holydays. ruption Bill, and I shall put that Bill upon the paper in accordance with the pledge which I have given to the House. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is the duty of those who regulate the business of the House to defer, as far as possible, to the general feeling of the House. I have no other wish in regulating our business than to take that course which, on the whole, I think will be most conducive to the public interest, and also most convenient to hon. SIR GEORGE GREY: I do not wish to interfere with the Order of Business proposed by the Government; but I certainly understood that the Committee on the Representation of the People Bill would be the first Order for Thursday. At present, however, the right hon. Gentleman pro poses to put the second reading of the from the hon. Member for the Tower Bribery and Corruption Bill, which has Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), and I will accordnot yet been brought in and read a first ingly make the Committee on the Repretime, for the first Order on that day. I sentation of the People Bill the first Order think that the Bribery and Corruption for Thursday, and then it will be for the Bill can hardly pass without some discus- House to decide on the course to be pursion, and that the course proposed by the sued. My only object is to consult the right hon. Gentleman amounts practically convenience of the House. I have been to postponing the Representation of the almost taunted by an hon. Baronet, a People Bill until after Easter. Member of this House, for having appeared to recede from an obligation which I accepted in its entirety and reality, and which I have laboured to fulfil. The measure I shall bring forward will at least prove the sincerity of my promise. I did not therefore feel myself perfectly free on the subject; but after what has occurred, I will put the Committee on the Representation of the People Bill first on the paper for Thursday, and the Bribery and Corruption Bill second. The House will then be in a position to determine which of them shall be first discussed. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I will leave the matter to the House. MR. AYRTON said, that to place the Bribery Bill first on the Paper would be to compel the House to pass the second reading of a measure of great importance without discussion, in order that they might proceed with the Reform Bill. That was a course which the House could never sanction; and therefore, practically, the right hon. Gentleman did not leave the matter in the hands of the House, but prevented them from proceeding with the Representation of the People Bill, for the Bribery Bill would occupy the whole of the evening. There was no Bill more likely to occupy time, because it was one of those subjects about which so many Members knew more than they did about most other subjects, and they generally found that the discussion became much more comprehensive as there was a large amount of personal knowledge and experience on the part of hon. Members. If the right hon. Gentleman really meant to give the House the option of deciding as to the course they would take, he would put the Reform Bill first, and then when they got into Committee they could decide whether to proceed or to report Progress at once in order to take the second reading of the Bribery Bill. MR. J. STUART MILL said, there was a great deal of inconvenience in leaving a matter of so much importance in vagueness and uncertainty. He spoke feelingly on the subject, as he had a Motion on the paper which would be the first Amendment on the Reform Bill when they got into Committee, and he was naturally anxious therefore to know whether the Bill would come on on Thursday. He was perfectly ready to bring forward his Motion on that day, or later if the House thought fit; but it was extremely important that he should know on what day he would be called upon to bring it forward. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I agree with what has fallen CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL. Bill to grant and alter certain Duties of Customs and Inland Revenue, and for other purposes relating thereto, presented, and read the first time. [Bill 113.] NATIONAL DEBT ACTS BILL. Resolution reported; of the Charge on the Consolidated Fund for Sav"That it is expedient to authorise the cancelling ings Banks of Twenty-Four Millions, and the creation of equivalent Terminable Annuities for Savings Banks in lieu thereof, and to provide for the payment of such Terminable Annuities out of the Consolidated Fund.” Resolution agreed to:-Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. DODSON, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. HUNT. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 114.] HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, April 9, 1867. * MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading- Second Reading-Tenure (Ireland) (23); Vice |