the present Bill only referred to declarations taken by Her Majesty's subjects. adopting my Amendment, not to allow I thought it also ought to be abolished; but Her Majesty to be isolated in declaring her adhesion to that Protestant Faith which, thank God, most of us in this House profess; would that many more defended it earnestly! Amendment proposed, In page 2, lines 4 and 5, to leave out all the words after the words "or right shall be," to the end of the Clause, and to insert the words, "held to apply to the Declaration set forth in the Second Schedule to this Act, which is hereby substituted for the Declaration set forth in the First Schedule to this Act, the obligation to take, make, and subscribe which last-mentioned Declaration is hereby repealed; and be it hereby declared and enacted, That the obligation to take, make, and subscribe the Declaration set forth in the Second Schedule to this Act, shall in all respects be the same as, and that the taking, making, and subscribing of the Declaration hereby substituted shall in all respects be held to be equivalent to the taking, making, and subscribing of the Declaration hereby repealed,"-(Mr. Newdegate,) -instead thereof. SIR COLMAN O’LOGHLEN said, that the object of the Bill was to abolish one of the most offensive declarations which the ingenuity of man could devise, and it was directed against some of the most sacred tenets held by Roman Catholics. The declaration was one which had to be taken by the Lord Lieutenant and by all the holders of offices for which Roman Catholics were ineligible. The Bill would not open any office to Roman Catholics which they could not hold now. It was supported last year by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, whom he regretted not to see in his place at that moment, and on the second reading was carried in that House by a majority of more than 2 to 1; it had been sent up to the other House, but at too late a period to be considered. On that occasion the noble Lord the chief of the present Government stated that he thought it could best be considered after the Oaths Commission, which was then sitting, had made its Report. No doubt the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire was less offensive; but it referred to the Thirty-nine Articles, which contained expressions in reference to Roman Catholic doctrines which were offensive, and it also contained for the first time a reference to purgatory. The Bill would not in the slightest degree interfere with the Coronation Oath. The declaration contained in the oath was worthy of consideration by the Commission. He MR. NEWDEGATE said, that there was a disposition last year to reject the Bill because the Commissioners on Oaths had not then presented their Report, and as they had not yet reported, the reason for delaying the Bill still existed. It was true the Bill had gone up to the other House last Session, and had not been proceeded with; but he had good grounds for believing that it was the determination of the Government to have rejected it. SIR JOHN GRAY said, that though the Commission referred to had not yet reported, a more important Report in reference to this question had been made. A Commission had been appointed to consider what declarations ought to be taken by holders of office, not being laymen, belonging to the Established Church. On that Commission were the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Archbishop of York, the Primate of the Established Church in Ireland, several of the then Ministry, the present Home Secretary, and some of the most prominent men, lay and clerical, connected with the Irish Established Church. The That Commission unanimously reported that this very declaration which the present Bill proposed to abolish was one which ought to be abolished, and it had accordingly been abolished. hon. Member now proposed to add another declaration which had reference to purgatary. Now, there was a homely saying in Ireland which would apply to the hon. Member, which was that, "if he did not like purgatory, he might go further and fare worse." Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause.' CRIMINAL LAW BILL. (Mr. Russell Gurney, Mr. Coleridge.) [BILL 8.] THIRD READING. Order for Third Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time." MR. CHILDERS said, he must repeat his objection to the Bill, that it transferred to the Consolidated Fund certain charges in connection with criminal offences hitherto borne by individuals without any of the forms prescribed by the House having been gone through. That was a proceeding which was of an inconvenient character and formed a precedent which the House ought to resist. He hoped the House would require the examination of the charges by a Committee of the whole House, and would not admit that, in consequence of an arrangement between the promoters of the Bill and the occupants of the Treasury Bench, that they were bound to include these expenses in the Estimates, and vote them year by year. MR. HUNT said, that the proceeding that was proposed by the Bill was in accordance with an arrangement suggested by Sir Robert Peel in 1846. He took it that they were doing nothing more than was done when the cost of prosecutions was first thrown on the means voted by Parliament, as was done by Sir Robert Peel in 1846. He gave great consideration to the suggestion of his hon. Friend, and though he was at first anxious to assent to such a clause, he had afterwards concluded that considerable difficulty would arise on the question of expense. He believed that if the Bill were passed into law, the expenses of prosecution would become considerably lessened; because under the present law there were often three or four witnesses summoned to one fact, and therefore the public would probably be materially benefited. MR. GLADSTONE said, he thought there were reasons why they should not argue too rapidly from the precedent of 1846. The measure of that year was carried under circumstances of extraordinary pressure, and since that time a keener eye had been kept upon the public expenditure. He accepted the declaration of the hon. Member that the House would be as entirely free to consider the subject when the Vote for the expenses of criminal prosecutions was proposed as if the present Bill had not passed. MR. HUNT said, that if the Bill were passed into law the expenses would be provided for in next year's Estimate. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHATTERTON) did not think that this Bill would decrease the cost of prosecutions. Motion agreed to. Bill read the third time, and passed. FORTIFICATIONS (PROVISION FOR EXPENSES) BILL-[BILL 104.] (Sir John Pakington, Mr. Hunt.) COMMITTEE. Bill considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Clause 1. SIR MORTON PETO said, that great care and caution should be exercised in the prosecution of the works, and he believed the estimate he had formed as to the expense of the armament would be found to be correct. He had no doubt our interests would be well protected by the present Secretary at War. MR. O'BEIRNE said, that experiments had proved iron fortifications to be most efficient for defensive purposes, while iron plates introduced into masonry formed a most imperfect defence. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON explained that iron shields, which would be expen sive, were not provided for by this Bill. It merely provided for the re-appropriation of money already granted. The subject of iron plating would, however, receive his most careful attention. Clause agreed to. Remaining clauses agreed to. be read the third time upon Thursday. Bill reported, without Amendment; to REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL. AMENDMENTS. MR. GLADSTONE said, that in order to prevent any confusion or misunderstanding which might arise as to the meaning of some of the Amendments he proposed to move upon the Reform Bill, which he found were not so clearly stated as he intended, he now proposed to insert in Clause 3, page 2, lines 3 and 4, after the words "and 2," the words "whether he in person or his landlord be rated to the relief of the poor." GAME LAWS (SCOTLAND) BILL. On Motion of Lord ELCHO, Bill to amend the Laws relating to Game in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Lord ELCHO, Mr. HENRY BAILLIE, and Sir ROBERT ANSTRUTHER. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 116.] LABOURING CLASSES DWELLINGS ACTS (1866) AMENDMENT BILL. On Motion of Mr. HUNT, Bill to amend "The Labouring Classes Dwellings Acts (1866)," ordered to be brought in by Mr. HUNT and Mr. Secretary WALpole. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 118.] LIMERICK HARBOUR BILL. Resolution April 8] reported; Resolution agreed to:-Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. DODSON, Lord NAAS, and Mr. HUNT. House adjourned at half after One o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, April 10, 1867. the last eleven years the value had increased in a greater ratio than that of land, iron works, or fisheries, though in a less ratio than three other descriptions of property-namely, railways, quarries, and gas works. In 1864 the annual value of mining property had increased by £1,934,000 over the value in 1853. The exemption from rating enjoyed by mines other than coal mines tended to throw great burdens on persons neither directly nor indirectly interested in mining property. For instance, in Ulverstone the annual value of mining property that escaped rating was £50,000, and was all in the hands of rich proprietors. The mines which created the greatest burdens by the number of disabled miners they made, and the roads they cut up with their heavy traffic, were wholly exempt either from Poor or highway rate. Thus in the parish of Alston, which in 1865 yielded lead to the value of £65,000, the mines paid nothing towards the poor rates, although out of 328 paupers 278 were from the mines, and only fifty-six were agricultural labourers. When he asked leave to introduce the Bill the President of the Poor Law Board said that many cases of a simi MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading-lar nature were about to be brought before sessment. Committee-Tests Abolition (Oxford) [16]. MINES, &c., ASSESSMENT BILL. But the Superior Courts of Law, with a view to (Mr. Percy Wyndham, Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, Plymouth (Sir Robert Collier), in which it Mr. Henderson.) [BILL 33.] SECOnd reading. Order for Second Reading read. was stated "The Statute 43rd of Elizabeth, chap. 2, sec. 1, in which poor rates originated, having declared all occupiers of coal mines,' among other things, MR. PERCY WYNDHAM, in moving rateable to the poor, it was early decided that the express mention of coal mines excluded all others, that the Bill be now ead the second time, and such at present is the law. The only question said, that since he had introduced the that can arise now upon this is whether the workmeasure a great many petitions had beenings for ore or other substances are or are not presented in its favour, and there was a very general desire that it should pass into law. The Bill proposed to assess to the local rates all mines and plantations in the same manner that coal mines were now rated. The Courts of Law having held that mines other than coal mines were not liable to be rated, a vast amount of mining property escaped assessment, though they were worked by shafts and drivings in a precisely similar manner. The annual value of mining property not subject to rates in 1853 was £4,744,000, and during mines; for, if quarries only, they are rateable." He therefore did not think that it was likely that the Judges would reverse former decisions, and shut their eyes to all the concurrent circumstances throwing light on the intention of the Legislature in passing that Act. In deciding a case in reference to a lead mine, Lord Mansfield said "We have no ground, authority, or pretence for giving it that extensive construction, nor is Legislature meant so. Nothing can be clearer there any foundation for imagining that the than that these (lead) mines are not within the letter of the statute, for the Legislature could never intend by the word coal mines' to comprehend other species of mines. If they had meant to include them they would either have enumerated them or used the general word 'mines.' So that the expression coal mines' expressly excludes mines of any other sort, as much as if they had been exempted." In Cornwall, where the tin mines were unsuccessfully struggling against foreign competition the exemption from rating acted as a protection, inducing people in some cases to keep their capital in what would otherwise be unprofitable concerns; while in his (Mr. Percy Wyndham's) part of the country the exemption operated to relieve from assessment the richest portion of the community, and to throw the burden on the poorer portion. With respect to the mode of rating, if they looked to coal mines it would be found that it varied in different localities, being sometimes on the actual and sometimes on the estimated royalty, and in Staffordshire upon the acreage. There were complaints against this uncertainty; but he feared that if the agitation attempted to establish a uniform system neither lords nor occupiers would pay what they ought to do. Mines differed from lands in this-that whilst the land remained, in the case of mines the corpus of the estate gradually became extinct: but this fact, if used as an argument against rating mines, would not hold water. £12,000 worth of coal would have the same rate as £12,000 worth of able value of the land on which they were grown, he was not aware how the Scotch Act upon the same subject was worded; but he had since ascertained that it was provided by that Act that where lands and heritages consisted of woods, copse, or underwood, the yearly value of the same was to be taken to be the rent at which they might in their natural state be reasonably expected to let from year to year as pasture or grazing lands. It was objected against the Bill that it only applied to mines and woods, whereas there were other descriptions of property which was not rated and which ought not to escape assessment, and there were petitions before the House praying every species of unrated property-including game preserves and shootings-should be made liable to rates. He did not, however, see why the Bill should be objected to on that ground. It was impossible to pass a comprehensive measure at once; and it should be remembered that in proportion as the number of exemptions was diminished the stronger would become the argument against the continuance of other exemptions, and, whatever might be the defects of the Bill, they were as nothing compared with the anomalies and inconsistencies of the present system. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Percy Wyndham.) LORD GEORGE CAVENDISH, in rising to move an Amendment that the Bill be referred to a Select Comitteee, said, he could assure the hon. Member that he was not actuated by any hostility to the principle of the Bill; but he regarded the details as so complicated that it would be impossible to deal with them satisfactorily in a Com land, as when it ceased to exist the rate could no longer be levied. It was upon this principle his Bill was based. The Bill contained a provision allowing, after the passing of the measure, the holders of existing leases, whereby a rent in money, royalty, toll, or due other than in kind was reserved, to deduct from the rent one-half of the rate which would be-mittee of the whole House. The most come chargeable upon them; and another conflicting opinions prevailed as to the clause provided that where any lord or principles on which mines should be rated. owner of a mine was assessed to local He was connected with the mineral district rates in respect of such mine, nothing in in the High Peak of Derbyshire. The the present Bill should be held to disturb mines there had been worked from time such assessment during the continuance of immemorial, and the customs dated as far existing setts. With regard to woods and back as the time of Edward III. By plantations, there was some doubt as to these customs every subject of the Crown the state of the law in reference to their was permitted to dig and delve for minerals. liability to be rated; but he believed that The minerals belonged to the Duchy of it was generally held that saleable under- Lancaster; but they had been leased to woods were rateable, though it seemed that lords, who received a royalty nominally of a great variety of practice existed in this one-thirteenth, but actually in most inrespect. When he drew up the clause stances of one-twentieth. On these royalproviding that woods. and plantations ties they had paid rates for very many should be liable to be rated upon the rate-years. The system worked harmoniously, but if it were meddled with great dissatis- regard must be had to many different faction and litigation would be occasioned. localities. He should be very glad to see There was evidence to show that if they plantations assessed. The best thing that attempted to rate the mine or throw the could be done was to refer this Bill to a rate on the occupier they would at once Select Committee, as the noble Lord proshut up a great portion of the mines, nine-posed. teen-twentieths of which were held by poor men. A question had been started as to the getting of ores. There was an old saying "There is ore of all kinds, but," alluding to the difficulty of getting it, "not for all men." It had been suggested by one witness examined before the Committee that the royalty should be taken as the principle on which mines should be assessed; but the whole question was one of such complicated detail that it would be impossible to deal with it satisfactorily in a Committee of the whole House. Therefore, in the most friendly spirit to the principle of the Bill, his recommendation would be that it be referred to a Select Committee. MR. COLVILE said, this proposition was not a new one. It was exactly fifty years since the first Bill for the rating of mines was laid on the table. The Legislature at that time appeared to be excessively keen on the subject, for the years 1817, 1818, and 1819 produced Bills for this purpose; but, like the material with which they proposed to deal, these Bills met with a "down-set." However, some twelve years afterwards the question again "cropped" up, and Bills were produced in 1856 and 1857. Since that period the subject has been allowed to rest until it was now brought forward by the hon. Member for West Cumberland (Mr. Percy Wyndham). The only novelty in this Bill was the proposition to rate mines on the same principle as coal mines. Now, he should very much have liked that the hon. Mover had explained a little more fully on what principle coal mines were rated. No one could very well tell on what principle coal mines were rated. The principle, to borrow a popular phrase, was one "that no fellah can understand." The hon. Member said, they must be rated on their net annual value; but how was that possible? A mine was worth thousands a year one day, and next day nothing at all. Unless they had, as in Scotland, an annual valuation it would be impossible to carry out that principle. He did not wish to shrink from the responsibility of having mines rated; he did not know why any hereditament should be exempted from local taxation; but he strongly objected to the mode of carrying out that object as proposed by this Bill. It was impossible to attempt to rate little mining undertakings worked by two or three men. The Small Tenements Act would have to be extended to mines, and compounding lords established. The only principle he could assent to was to rate the lords on their dues, as was now practised in Derbyshire; but the subject was much too wide to be considered by the House. The range of the inquiry should be extended. The hon. Member had taken one leaf from the Scotch Lands Valuation Act, and proposed to rate woods; he would take another, and move that game, This was un- let at a rental, should be included, and doubtedly a very difficult question, and the Bill referred to a Select Committee. MR. KENDALL quite agreed that all mines should be rated; but he did not think it would be possible to apply this Bill to mines in the West of England. The Bill declared that mines and minerals in England and Wales should be liable to local rates in the same manner and to the same extent as coal mines are liable to local rates; but on what principle were coal mines rated? He never could learn. In some places they were rated on the ton, in others on the profits; but the yield and the profits differed largely. The Bill was totally inapplicable to Cornish mines. In the rich district of Redruth there were only two or three mines paying a profit. How were such mines to be assessed? In one mine £400,000 had been expended, and the whole money was lost. In another instance £90,000 had been expended without the return of a single shilling. If there was no realized profits how could they assess them? At present mining property was in a most depressed state. There was great danger of driving capital away from Cornwall, owing to the large imports of tin from Chile, America, and Australia, and perhaps also to the monetary panic. He did not mean to say that mines should not be assessed to the relief of the poor; but the question was, who should be assessed? They must virtually assess the proprietor of the soil. If any profit was received he was sure to get it, and therefore he was the proper party to be assessed. |