out some discussion on it. For myself, I may observe that I have laid before the House of Commons every paper on the subject in my possession. I have kept nothing back; and I have really nothing additional to state to the House. Under these circumstances it is clear that if my hon. Friend brings forward his Motion, he cannot, in any reply I may make, give hon. Members any farther information. But, having laid all the papers in my possession on the table of the House, and thereby challenged criticism upon the course which I have taken, as set forth in these papers, I could not go further than to say that, on the whole, I should prefer that my hon. Friend did not bring the subject on at present. SIR ROUNDELL PALMER: I have studied the whole of the papers on this subject very carefully, and I declare to the House they present matters of great importance which must come before us in proper season; but I would not on my own responsibility come down to the House and say what I think of them, having regard to the actual state of circumstances in regard to the relations between this country and Spain. MR. DILLWYN gathered from the speeches delivered that evening, including the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, that the House thought an adjournment of the debate in Committee on the Reform Bill would be desirable. ["No, no!"] Certainly he understood hon. Members to wish that there should be an adjourn ment after a full discussion. He could only say that he was in favour of moderate counsels, rather than excited speeches. MR. DAVENPORT BROMLEY wished to ask, whether it might not be possible to come to an understanding that the debate was to go on, but that they were to come to no decision on the Amendment to-night? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The appeal to me which the noble Lord (Earl Grosvenor) has made is one of that class which, on the part of the Minister, should, I know, be received with a certain degree of sustained silence, because every one must feel that it really is a matter to be decided by the wish of the House, and not by that of any Gentleman sitting on the Treasury Bench. Now, my own opinion is that it is expedient that we should proceed with the discussion of the Bill; but, at the same time, I feel and understand the reason which induced the noble Lord to make the appeal. I do not think that this question has been adequately discussed; but I do not see that there is any reason why, now that we have gone into Committee on a previous occa sion, we should lose the opportunity at present before us. Whatever may be the better course, I feel that the course which the House should decide on under these circumstances is always to consult the feeling of the majority of the House, and I believe the feeling of the majority is that, whatever may be the result, we ought to proceed with the discussion to-night. I would now have sat down had it not been for some observations which have been unnecessarily made by some hon. Gentlemen, and particularly by that sincere Reformer the hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr. Osborne). That sincere Reformer has accused the noble Lord the Member for Chester of being in collusion with myself. I thought a few nights ago that the sin cere Reformer was in collusion with Her Majesty's Ministers, for he was a very ardent supporter of ours; and now, with a celerity of transformation which, I confess, somewhat astonishes me, it certainly seems curious, after the course he has taken in discussing this measure, he should be so free in his imputations on other Gentlemen. The hon. Gentleman-this sincere Reformervery boldly and unequivocally announced to the House three times to-night that I had declared I would not listen to any Amendment which might be proposed to the Bill in this House. That is a statement which, on impartial investigation, will be found to have no foundation in fact. I have from the first said that this measure of ours-if once permitted to go into Committee-was one only to be carried by the general consent of the House, and by the assistance derived from hon. Gentlemen on both sides. I have always invited that assistance and that cordial co-operation, and have promised a reciprocity of feeling and conduct on the part of the Government. It is very true, as the hon. Member for Nottingham has stated, that I expressed-[Mr. OSBORNE : Hear!]-I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is so attentive, and, I assure him, I feel his attention as a distinction-it is very true that I expressed in my communication to my friends that I should certainly if the changes proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lanca shire were sanctioned by the House-deem that they were fatal to the measure the Government have introduced; and for the very good reason that they really are not Amendments, but propositions contrary to those which we have brought forward. They are not Amendments to our measure, but constitute a supersession of it. Therefore, it was necessary that there should be a clear understanding on that head; I said that after the Bill had been read a second time, and its principle had been accepted, and we were in Committee, we would be ready to consider Amendments which might be brought forward for the improvement of the measure; but when, upon the Bill going into Committee, notice is given of a series of Amendments which entirely change the character of the measure and alter its principles, then the most convenient course is that we should at once declare that we do not recognise those falselycalled Amendments as subjects which ought to be brought forward in Committee. I only wished it to be understood that the propositions of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire are looked on by the Government really as a proposition of a counter Bill. With this view and feeling, I thought it necessary that I should at once state the manner in which we regarded them, and the effect which we considered those propositions, if carried, would have on our measure. With that exception, I am not aware that I have shown any indisposition to receive advice or to listen to any suggestion from hon. Gentlemen opposite, for I feel sure that it is only by mutual concession that there is any prospect of bringing this question to a happy termination. EARL GROSVENOR: In deference to the feeling of the House I will withdraw my Motion. With regard to the expression of the "sincere Reformer," the Member for Nottingham MR. OSBORNE: I rise to order. ["Chair!"] I believe the noble Earl has no right to reply. MR. SPEAKER: The rule with regard to Motions for Adjournment of the House is this:-If the Motion for the Adjournment is made while another Motion is before the House, and during the progress of the debate, there is no reply. But if the Motion of adjournment is a sub. stantive Motion, the right to reply has been admitted. EARL GROSVENOR: I can assure the House that in proposing my Motion I had not the least desire to cause any delay in the progress of the measure of Reform. "Delays," it is said, are sometimes dangerous;" but in this particular case I VOL. CLXXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.] 66 think a little delay would be safe. As the House is of the contrary opinion, I defer to that opinion and will withdraw the Motion for postponement. With regard to the expressions I was about to refer to when the "sincere Reformer' (the Member for Nottingham) interposed, I will simply say that I will take the first opportunity of answering his assertions. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Bill considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Preamble. On Question, "That the Preamble be postponed," MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he quite concurred in the remark that had been made, that the Bill had not received that discussion which its importance demanded during its progress through the preliminary stages. Owing to accidental circumstances three different opportunities for discussion fell through; and the Bill passed into Committee almost without discussion, and the House found itself on the top of an inclined plane which led directly to the pit of democracy. It was startling to think that the same House of Commons which was last year so cautious should this year have become so utterly reckless. Last year a £7 rating was almost thought to be excessive; but when the present Government had to consider the question of Reform in the autumn, and to decide what was to constitute the suitableness of a man to enjoy the possession of the franchise, they arrived at the conclusion that the personal payment of rates was a sufficient guarantee. The attempt had since been made to discover a principle and a resting ground in this; but when they came to try it on its details, there was ample reason to doubt whether in truth any reliable principle was involved in the plan. The position of the compound-householder, under the Bill, could scarcely be said to be in harmony with any principle; and what ought not to be forgotten was the opportunities which his position would open to the influences of bribery and corruption. Suppose that a candidate set about to canvass a borough in anticipation of a General Election. He would find numbers of compound-householders who would say to him that they were too poor to be at the expense of placing themselves upon the register; but that if he would pay this [Committee. 3 C with great confidence and respect. That noble Lord had said that this Bill would not be a Democratic measure, and it would be no doubt a great satisfaction to the House to hear from the noble Lord his reasons for entertaining that opinion. He thought they now required the recess calmly to consider the scheme of Reform, and they ought not to allow themselves to be hurried into a precipitate conclusion. Some hon. Gentlemen talked as if there was only one issue before them, and as if this House were divided into two hostile camps. But it was preposterous to imagine that. There were, at least, five parties in the House. There were the two extremes, the moderates on each side, and the centre, and yet it was expected that 600 Gentlemen selected from the whole country for their ability to exercise a calm and correct judgment on this matter were to move like so many soldiers by the sound of a trumpet, and to render an obedience to their leaders which was positively slavish and degrading. [Cries of "Agree!"] The natural impatience of the House on this point, as manifested by the interruptions to which he was at this moment subjected, furnished him with an illustration which was quite germane to the matter. The argument most commonly made use of here was what he might call an argumentum ad desperationem. Everybody said that something must be done; they were all tired of the question, and therefore they were prepared to take the first measure that was offered to them. It was well known that Members were brought there under great moral compulsion, and that on great party divisions Members were induced to vote, not by the ordinary party inducements, but by others that were not quite so legitimate. It was only the other day that there had been a serious split in the party opposite; but they were now given to understand that the wanderers had returned to the fold, and that they were ready to do penance for their backsliding. As they seemed now as anxious for a division as they were formerly averse to it, he presumed they were now better drilled than they were before. He was very certain that the country did not understand the distinctions that had so lately been set up respecting compoundhouseholders. In many parts of the coun try they did not know what a compoundhouseholder was. It was a mere jargon of debate that was bandied about from side expense for them, and recoup them the difference between the amount of the rates they would have to pay and the amount of the composition the landlord paid, they would be willing to exercise in his favour the franchise which they had acquired by his influence. Well, the candidate would be in a painful dilemma; either he must lose a number of votes, or he must lay himself open to the imputation of corruption and undue influence. It was well known that, even at present, many Members of the House were expected to contribute to the expense of keeping up the municipal franchise in the boroughs they sat for; and he believed that an hon. Gentleman was about to resign his seat on account of the increasing heaviness of this annual charge. But these points and others of equal importance had never yet been considered by the House, or by the country; and he maintained that it would be well that they should have the opportunity of consulting their constituents, who were principally interested, upon them during the Easter recess, before committing themselves to the contest that must arise upon the Amendments of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Another reason in favour of delay was that there was great uncertainty as to the prospects of a dissolution; and he should be glad to know-and he thought it import ant that it should be stated-what was the exact meaning of the circular issued to his supporters by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House-whether it meant that a dissolution would take place in the event of the success of the Amendments of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, or whether it was only intended as an expression of the personal opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This was a serious question. As the case now stood they might all be sent to the right about at a moment's notice. They were about to go into Committee upon a measure that must change the character of the Constitution to an incalculable degree, and he felt very strongly that this serious step had not been preceded by any adequate discussion upon the principle of the measure. But that discussion had been burked, or, he might say truncated, and the House had been deprived of the advantage of hearing the opinions of many hon. Members to whom they would have been glad to listen. The noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, for instance, was a statesman to whom they all looked to side. Then with respect to the Bill be put upon the register, and the question -it was represented to the other side as a whether the voter who pays his rates Liberal measure, and that though it might through the medium of his rent to his be Conservative in esse, it would prove to landlord shall likewise have had those be Liberal in posse. He believed that was rates paid by the landlord or, in default of true, and that before many years were over the landlord by himself, before he is enthere would not be a compound-house- titled to be put upon the register, are holder in a borough but by hook or by questions of considerable moment, which I crook he would obtain the suffrage. But do not in the slightest degree intend now to that side of the House it was represented to raise. My own personal opinion is that as strongly Conservative. It had all sorts which was expressed by the Bill of last of check-there was the dual check, the year; but I own that the question of the personal rating check, and the residence payment of rates is a question upon which check; but they were all in the course of any Member would incur great responsivaunting. He contended that if they came bility if, for the sake of it, he rejected a down to household suffrage pure and simple, Reform Bill which was in other respects it would be better to adopt the municipal satisfactory. My Amendment upon the franchise at once. Should the checks 3rd clause involves nothing touching which had been proposed by the Government not be accepted as part of their Bill, the franchise given by the Government measure would differ from the municipal franchise merely in respect of the latter requiring three years and the former two years' residence. If such a result were probable the better course would be to accept the municipal franchise. Motion agreed to. Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3 (Occupation Franchise for Voters in Boroughs). MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, as my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster (Mr. Stuart Mill) was good enough at an early period of the evening to state his willingness to waive the moving of his Amendment until a later stage of the Bill, I need not go through the formality of making a fresh appeal to him. Before I state the purpose and object of the Amendment I am about to move, I wish, on account of the mingled difficulty and dryness of the subject, to observe pointedly to hon. Members that there are two very important questions connected with rating that are not in the slightest degree involved in the statement I have to make. The question we discussed last year, and which became decisive of the fate of the late Government namely, whether the franchise should be measured by rateable value, or by clear annual value, is not now before Another question of very considerable importance is likewise wholly apart from the vote which I shall invite the Committee to give-I mean the question of payment of rates. The question whether the voter who is liable to the payment of rates personally shall have paid his rates before he is authorized to claim to that portion of the clause which requires the payment of rates. This Amendment, as has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is the first of a series which is intended to give effect to the views which I glanced at on the opening of the debate when the Bill was presented to the House, and which I more fully explained on the second reading of the Bill. They are not, indeed, complete, even as they stand upon the Votes, because any proposal to relieve from liability the smaller occupier is a matter in respect of which it would obviously have been impossible to deal with in a clause which relates to enfranchisement. It would require more than one clause, drawn with considerable care, and involving a considerable amount of collateral and subsidiary provisions, to deal with that question, and I hope that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Coleridge) will fulfil his intention of presenting clauses with a view of giving effect to a plan of that nature. My Amendments form a whole, and appear to constitute a mode of procedure which, I believe, would be satisfactory to the feelings, and would correspond with the widelyspread and deeply entertained convictions of this House. But in asking the Committee to concur in any one of the Amendments, I certainly cannot adopt the lofty language of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who says that they relate to the vital question of residence, and that if any one of them be adopted it will be impossible for the Government to proceed with the Bill. I have no authority to present these Amendments to the House. I may have my own opinion as to their connection with and adherents [Committee-Clause 3. 3 C 2 to the plan; but I have no power and no speech of my hon. and learned Friend, his inclination to bind any other person-they sole reply, couched in five words, was are entire and consistent in themselves," Get out of Nisi Prius." By passing by and unless I very much mistake, can stand on their own merits. Now, Sir, so much has been said on so many occasions about our position with regard to this subject that I will state to the House what I regard that position to be. The paramount object we have before us is to pass a good Reform Bill, the secondary but still important objects are to pass that Reform Bill during the present year, and to pass it, if we can, by the aid of the present Government. I am not, however, prepared to sacrifice the paramount object to those of secondary importance. We should, in my opinion, commit a vital mistake if, because we have been laggard in former years, we should, I will not say hastily, but with insufficient care, piece together the clauses of a Reform Bill, and send forth to the country that which, while it professes to be a settlement, can only lead to new and fiercer agitation. Subject to the goodness of the Reform Bill, there is scarcely any sacrifice of time, feeling, or opinion compatible with higher principles that we ought not to be prepared to make in order to dispose permanently of this question. in that manner what he now says is the gist and upshot of his Bill, the right hon. Gentleman raised the impression that he was willing to act with us; but when he told us that he was prepared to enter into the consideration of this important portion of such Bill the terms are of little value, unless they are interpreted in a liberal spirit. If we cannot have the aid of the Government with respect to this matter of personal rating, I deeply regret it. I think we have shown on this side of the House, by the conduct we have pursued up to the present week, that we are entitled to the credit of having acted with sincerity. I should deeply regret the loss of the aid of the Government, and that they should fasten themselves-if they ultimately do so-to a proposition and scheme so unhappy in its whole conception as this of personal rating. Still, the withdrawal of that aid cannot affect the paramount duty of the House; because, if we send forth a Bill with safeguards and limits we are answerable for the character of those safeguards and limits, and are bound to see that they are not constituted of flimsy and untrustworthy materials, utterly Now, with respect to the Motion to unworthy of the House of Commons. Now, which I am about to ask the House to when I look at the propositions of the Goagree, I must take leave to observe that up vernment with respect to the borough franto Saturday last I had not the slightest chise-and for the present I will look no reason to suppose that even the Motion I further-I find that its most prominent now make, and much less the innocent characteristics are an extreme narrowness little proposal with regard to the two of immediate enfranchisement, and the years' residence [ Oh, oh!"] would have setting up of certain barriers, to which been received as they have been by Her barriers we are invited to trust for exclud Majesty's Government. When I saying a great mass of householders below "little," though it was not large in itself the limit of £10. These are the two proit was large in principle. Why, what hap-minent features of the plan. Now, let us pened on the second reading? Most certainly the objection to personal rating was not blinked. I myself detained the House for some time on the subject, and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer) followed me in a speech on the same subject, of which I will say nothing more than that it was worthy of his name, his character, and his talents. My hon. and learned Friend confined himself exclusively to this subject. He presented it in the clearest form to the eye and mind of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speech of that night, did not hold the high and imperious language which he does now. look at the figures in order that I may make good what I say. As the figures stand in the Return which bears the name of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury, the number of direct rate paying householders who would be entitled to the advantages of this Act would be 246,000, and, I think I understand, according to the computation of the Govern ment, 50 per cent of that number, or 123,000, may be expected to get upon register. I think that deduction of 50 per cent is not an undue deduction. The figures again show that there are 476,000 compound-householders who would be quali fied under this Act, and according To that same computation that number would be the |